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  #21  
Old 05-06-2021, 11:37 AM
PlumCrazyChris PlumCrazyChris is offline
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Join Date: Jun 03, 2002
Location: Round Rock, Texas
Posts: 352
Great writeup Bob, I can't believe GWs didn't come with these from the factory, at least in their last few years. I hope it tunes up nice for you. I had one on my 83 Cherokee 258, and had plenty of power. Very similar to the 360 in my previous Cherokee. I had problems with my distributor though, I was getting way to much vacuum advance and ended up having to put a stop in the advance plate.

Hope you took to time to replace your water pump and ensure your cooling system is up to scratch before heading to Arizona. Wait til you get there to address the A/C. You can get R12 across the border at La Autozona, for a few bucks a can. or at least you could a few years ago. I had the a/c on my 79 Cherokee repaired over in Progresso one afternoon while a couple friends and I had lunch for $60. It literally froze us out on the way back to Austin.

I've gone through your other thread, and you've really done some great work. I love the seats and door panels etc. and spent money where it does the most good.

Nice job!
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1990 Grand Wagoneer - sold
1983 Cherokee Laredo Limited - sold, and want it back!
1979 Cherokee Chief - sold
1976 Cherokee Chief - sold
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  #22  
Old 05-06-2021, 12:14 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,918
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticRob
Not much to report other than I had to phone Howell's support guys due to a cold start low / hunting idle issue (~400RPM to almost dying, occasionally dying) I had from initial startup, obviously during open loop operation. Closed loop seemed to work well once the vehicle was warmed up and was obvious when it kicked over to closed loop since it idled so much better.

Anyway, their support guy was quick to answer, and he walked me thru which direction the T20 screw needed to be turned to speed up the cold start idle using the following steps in the manual (which again, is pretty pathetic since it doesn't provide anywhere near enough info).

I borrowed a portable tach and verified 650-700 RPM after screwing in (aka clockwise) that T20 torx screw about 2.5 turns from where it was originally out of the box.

Cold start is now quick and painless, though I have now diagnosed a couple exhaust leaks on the rear of both manifolds, as well as what sounds like lifter tick on the #1 cylinder, which is causing a misfire and subsequent RPM drop of 50-100 RPMs every few seconds. Will troubleshoot that soon as I need it running perfectly to smog it!

Support guy verified I already had vacuum routed correctly (again, the manual wording sucks, and has no pics), and timing at about 15* for Boise altitude sounded good to him. I've used all new vacuum hoses, capped unneeded ports, and used a new EGR and PCV valve.

Idle Air Adjustment Instructions
Before beginning adjustment, grind the throttle stop screw plug, flat and drill into the plug or punch out the cup plug (on some TBI models) to allow a T-20 Torx driver to access the screw.
1. Jumper A&B terminals in the ALDL connector (scanner connector)
2. Turn ignition key on but do not start engine.
3. Disconnect 4-pin idle air control connector from the TBI unit.
4. Remove jumper from ALDL connector.
5. Start engine.
6. While idling, adjust throttle stop screw to increase base idle rpm as desired.
7. Turn engine off.
8. Reconnect idle air control connector.
9. This will complete the adjustment.

You must also check(and correct if needed) TPS base voltage when adjusting minimum idle speed. Needs to be ~.54v
When adjusting for the minimum idle it should be set ~100RPM below the commanded idle speed in .bin

Exhaust leaks will mess with TBI the o2 sensor will read leaner than actual conditions. This causes the ecm to add fuel unnecessarily.
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  #23  
Old 05-06-2021, 12:17 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumCrazyChris
Great writeup Bob, I can't believe GWs didn't come with these from the factory, at least in their last few years. I hope it tunes up nice for you. I had one on my 83 Cherokee 258, and had plenty of power. Very similar to the 360 in my previous Cherokee. I had problems with my distributor though, I was getting way to much vacuum advance and ended up having to put a stop in the advance plate.

Hope you took to time to replace your water pump and ensure your cooling system is up to scratch before heading to Arizona. Wait til you get there to address the A/C. You can get R12 across the border at La Autozona, for a few bucks a can. or at least you could a few years ago. I had the a/c on my 79 Cherokee repaired over in Progresso one afternoon while a couple friends and I had lunch for $60. It literally froze us out on the way back to Austin.

I've gone through your other thread, and you've really done some great work. I love the seats and door panels etc. and spent money where it does the most good.

Nice job!

You and me both, on lack of TBI/EFI in later years. Carbs suck (and used till 1991!), and just too analog and difficult to dial in for both performance and drivability. I'm waiting to get the cash together for a new HEI coil-on-dizzy from ProForm or the like to avoid relying on the antiquated Motorcraft brains and stock dizzy in it now. No idea how old the coil is either, but it looked stock.

Not sure on the water pump age, but it works well enough for now. Trying not to sink too much into it right now, considering I now need to resolve that misfire. I likely won't have enough time to get the A/C working before I head down to AZ, but am hopeful. Won't be much infrastructure where we're headed. Thanks for the kind words on my build, it's coming along slowly, but I'm pretty happy with it now. Seems like it's 2 steps forward, 1 step back lately, considering I'm neck deep in the mechanicals now.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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  #24  
Old 05-06-2021, 01:07 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
You must also check(and correct if needed) TPS base voltage when adjusting minimum idle speed. Needs to be ~.54v
When adjusting for the minimum idle it should be set ~100RPM below the commanded idle speed in .bin

Exhaust leaks will mess with TBI the o2 sensor will read leaner than actual conditions. This causes the ecm to add fuel unnecessarily.

Yeah, Tony, funny how I thought this was going to be a quick and painless install!

With the instruction manual sucking like it does, I'll need to research that TPS base voltage check and adjustment then, unless you can point to something for me.

Marc PM'd me some improved steps for setting the idle earlier today, but I figure I need to get those exhaust leaks and lifter/rocker tick diagnosed and resolved before I can get everything dialed in completely.

Hey, it's running way better than it did with that old suspect carb though!
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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  #25  
Old 05-06-2021, 02:38 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,918
tps should be adjustable,key on engine off, loosen screws rotate tps to desired voltage tighten screws.

to read voltage you'll need an aldl cable & software.
you can buy one(overpriced imho) or grab a $8 usb board.
i recently sent Marc info on cheap usb stuff he may have info handy?

regardless what anybody claims...no such thing as slap it on and go/self tuning blah blah.
It may work, but it won't be 100% and they ALL benefit from "tuning" be it old school burning a chip or changing parameters via touchscreen on the more modern stuff.

once it's dialed in you'll never regret going efi.
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  #26  
Old 05-10-2021, 01:06 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
tps should be adjustable,key on engine off, loosen screws rotate tps to desired voltage tighten screws.

to read voltage you'll need an aldl cable & software.
you can buy one(overpriced imho) or grab a $8 usb board.
i recently sent Marc info on cheap usb stuff he may have info handy?

regardless what anybody claims...no such thing as slap it on and go/self tuning blah blah.
It may work, but it won't be 100% and they ALL benefit from "tuning" be it old school burning a chip or changing parameters via touchscreen on the more modern stuff.

once it's dialed in you'll never regret going efi.

Between you and Marc I should know a lot more about this than I thought I would after I get it all done. Thanks again!
I'm still waiting on my new BJ's 17-8516 Remflex Exhaust Gaskets to arrive, but should get them before I head to CA for a six-week job.
I still need to get into my driver side valve cover to check for obvious issues with what sounds like the #1 cylinder lifter tick and misfire.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877

Last edited by MysticRob : 05-11-2021 at 07:07 AM.
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  #27  
Old 05-14-2021, 08:30 AM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Marc has sent me an adapter he made so I'm looking forward to getting that. I'll run TunerPro and log once I get the exhaust leaks and what I've now identified as a sloppy rocker arm on the #1 cylinder intake valve fixed. The valve ticking is no longer audible past ~1000 RPM, so I'm hoping I can resolve it without tearing down anything else.

I've discovered some other odd things with that diagnosis that I've described in this new thread:

https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189937

I may try to change the exhaust manifold gaskets myself today, just hoping I don't break any bolts off in the heads!
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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  #28  
Old 05-17-2021, 09:49 AM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Hadn't been able to update this thread due to a misfire caused by a dished lifter. I replaced that bad lifter and did some other valvetrain work to hopefully fix that problem.
As part of the Howell install there's a white tach signal wire that needs wired into the negative side of the coil. Since my coil was pretty mickey-moused I decided to get a new coil wiring bracket and clean things up. Here's a look at the old coil wiring, lovely as it is. It had a broken positive-side bracket with 2 separate yellow wires being badly wired into it, with the 2nd wire end just hanging unconnected to anything -- real quality work! The negative side just had a single loose spade connector on it that I temporarily had wound the white tach signal wire around just to get it started and iron out some bugs (and subsequently discover valvetrain issues):


I ordered the new coil connector from TGW and it's very nice. Here's a pic of the mock-up prior to wiring everything together the right way:


Everything wired up and loomed to hide the ugliness. While I was in here I also repaired the A/C compressor wiring that someone had butchered:


I'd discovered upon starting it that it had bad exhaust leaks on both sides of the block so thought it best to resolve those before trying to dial in the system using Marc and Tony's advice. Thankfully the exhaust manifold bolts weren't very tight so I was able to remove them without too much trouble or broken bolts. Got the new BJ's exhaust manifold gaskets and they're much thicker at ~3/16" than the crap that was on there:


Old passenger side gaskets:
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877

Last edited by MysticRob : 05-17-2021 at 12:08 PM.
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  #29  
Old 05-17-2021, 12:20 PM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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Join Date: Oct 31, 2016
Location: Camarillo, CA
Posts: 4,269
Looking good! Make sure to post us up some Videos!!!
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  #30  
Old 05-17-2021, 09:14 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by rang-a-stang
Looking good! Make sure to post us up some Videos!!!

I took a 30sec video of her running very well now, but it's 80MB and I'll have to manually offload it from my phone to my laptop before posting.

I still have to button a few things up, and figure out where exactly to place the brain box, but I feel much better about tuning the IAC and TPS once I get that usb cable you sent. Post office still shows it in transit, so hopefully it arrives tomorrow. I'll cap this thread off with interior pics and how I terminated power too, plus offer up some tips on things learned, etc.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877

Last edited by MysticRob : 05-18-2021 at 03:12 PM.
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  #31  
Old 05-18-2021, 02:56 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
327 Rambler
 
Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Did the work up inside the dash today to run the harness and mount the ECM. I'd mocked up how I wanted to run the harness before, but I'll describe it better here. Since I chose to drill the 1.5" engine bay hole closer to the passenger side of the firewall, it allowed me to gently run the harness toward the steering wheel above the black HVAC ducting like the main factory waggy harness. The original waggy harness is closer in the pic with the clamp on it, and the ECM harness is behind it running toward the driver side on the left:


I then brought the ECM harness down and tucked it up inside the bottom lip of the dash, then continued running it along the inside of the dash till I curved it up back toward the inside flat part of the passenger dash:


Here it is tucked up inside where the HVAC assembly will keep it from dropping down into view:


Got the ECM mounted up along the inside flat part of the dash on the passenger side with massive velcro strips. Decided this would be the best location because of a few different reasons, much of it related to the size of the box!

A. The main harness in the cabin is very long and this mounting location made it easy to snake the harness around gently to avoid pinching or odd angles.
B. The ECM likely won't overheat with there being so much room.
C. There isn't much room to mount that massive box anywhere else that I liked.

In this pic the connectors are pointed toward the passenger side, driver side is toward the right. You can see the harness at the bottom of the pic coming up from the bottom of the dash lip where it won't get in the way of the HVAC assembly:


I got the A/C evaporator put back inside the HVAC assembly, then mounted the HVAC assembly, and now am pretty much done, except for eventual mounting of the OBD1 connector and the "check engine" light I still need to purchase.

Otherwise, I'll update this thread again later if something requires relocating or troubleshooting.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877

Last edited by MysticRob : 05-18-2021 at 03:13 PM.
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  #32  
Old 05-18-2021, 06:55 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
Bust out inner flap or wire it open all time.
WOT or even heavy load vacuum drops and it can close resulting in HUGE air restriction.

Alright, so I stuck a couple of thick rubber vacuum hoses in that little guide to keep the flap inside the air cleaner wedged open. Seems to have done the trick:


I ended up rerunning the evap hoses from the gas tank and transmission up and over the rear of the block, across the back of the intake, then into the 3rd port on the evap canister to keep them much farther away from the exhaust. Took forever having to crawl under then back up to adjust things, etc, so didn't get a chance to put the hood on.

Today was the first time I've actually installed the fresh air duct from the core support to the air cleaner. Had to do some minor fitting but I think it looks pretty stock in there now:


Head-on pic:


I started it up again after completing the work in the cabin, then drove around the neighborhood, then parked it in the garage again. I leave for CA tomorrow for six weeks, so won't be updating this thread till I get back. At that point I'll try to tune the TPS and IAC per previous conversations above.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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  #33  
Old 06-01-2021, 09:43 AM
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SOLSAKS SOLSAKS is offline
304 AMC
 
Join Date: Jul 25, 2016
Location: Benson. NC
Posts: 1,687
nice write up

I bet it runs good

over my head, but really nice.

dave in NC
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1976 J-10 HONCHO Fleetside
1982 J-10 Fleetside
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  #34  
Old 07-21-2021, 10:53 AM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Did some work yesterday and got the engine running very smoothly on open loop but discovered it almost died when it switched to closed loop, then had a slightly rough and hunting idle. Tapping the throttle was still very smooth without any hiccups though.

I'll 'rent' a digital tach from O'Reilly's again and set the idle properly (did this last time with the bad lifter screwing things up), and see if I can hook up the adapter Marc sent me to diagnose/resolve any potential gremlins I may not be aware of yet.

I'll also do some vacuum line diagnostics with the new EGR and some other stuff just in case of leaks or malfunctions there.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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  #35  
Old 07-24-2021, 11:01 AM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
tps should be adjustable,key on engine off, loosen screws rotate tps to desired voltage tighten screws.

To read voltage you'll need an aldl cable & software.

I think I've got all the mechanical issues worked out now, so wanted to revisit these posts about the TPS and IAC adjustments.

The manual doesn't discuss whether the TPS setting should be verified or adjusted, or if adjustment should be done before or after the IAC adjustment.

Tony was kind enough to verify the IAC should be done first, and during closed loop operation, prior to the TPS adjustments.

Per quite a few youtube vids, I used a bed-of-nails alligator clip to pierce the blue wire going to the sensor, then hooked up my DVM to that lead, then grounded the other lead onto the negative battery terminal. Once everything was attached I turned the key on, and the sensor read 0.86V, which apparently is way too high.
I then drilled out and filed out the TPS sensor holes a lot to be able to rotate the sensor counter-clockwise enough to get down to ~0.54V. Here's the sensor prior to drilling.
I Drilled out the top of the left hole, and filing out the bottom right of the right-side hole.


Hard to tell, but here's the sensor remounted and rotated enough to get that 0.54V:
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877

Last edited by MysticRob : 07-28-2021 at 03:39 PM.
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  #36  
Old 07-28-2021, 03:08 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Join Date: Nov 26, 2019
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 592
Alright, so I called Howell's tech support # to verify the target idle in the .bin file is 650rpm.

I then did all the steps to dial in the IAC after it warmed up, set the minimum idle speed to about 550-600rpm, per Howell's instructions, then verified the TPS still shows ~0.54V.

She now starts quickly, and idles nicely during both open and closed loop operation, which allowed me to finally drive it over the the Idaho DMV so I could transfer the title and register it (they need to see the vehicle in person and verify the VIN) almost 2 years after I bought it.

License plates should be here in a couple weeks, at which point I'll drive it a few hundred feet to my nearest smog test place and complete that step.
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--Rob--
1988 Jeep Grand Wagoneer / Baltic Blue & Tan
2008 BMW 535xi Wagon / Deep Sea Blue & Tan

My build thread:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189245
My Howell TBI Install How-To:
https://ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=189877
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  #37  
Old 07-29-2021, 05:16 PM
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jeepjseries jeepjseries is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: May 30, 2009
Location: Azalea Oregon
Posts: 1,398
Very amazing detailed write up MysticRob. Love all the pictures too. This will definitely help people do this in the future.
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