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  #21  
Old 07-25-2021, 05:56 AM
wiley-moeracing wiley-moeracing is offline
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If you can not weld it together then make your mock up and pull it out and take it to a shop and have it welded together for you, motor mounts are important to get right, hate to see the motor jump out.
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  #22  
Old 07-25-2021, 07:07 AM
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Agree

I’d love to disagree with you, but I can’t. It would always be in the back of my head that it should be welded.

Since I was comfortable enough to consider a bolt-up version (pretty solid as it sits), I figure there’s no time like the present to get a welder. What’s the worst that can happen?

Maybe don’t answer that. Thanks for the nudge.

David
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1988 GW, 2006 Wrangler X, 2018 Wrangler Sport (JL)
Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.
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  #23  
Old 07-25-2021, 08:54 AM
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Southeast Expressway

Ford Country Squire, no seatbelts seven kids in seven years. My folks bit off way more than they could chew For some reason as a kid, I was convinced my Dad built that tunnel. LOL
Let me know if you're serious about unloading that stuff. Ill shoot down 195.
My thumbnail is my truck out on South Beach on the Vineyard.

[quote=dsii]There
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  #24  
Old 07-25-2021, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stonybrookpictures
Ford Country Squire, no seatbelts seven kids in seven years. My folks bit off way more than they could chew For some reason as a kid, I was convinced my Dad built that tunnel. LOL
Let me know if you're serious about unloading that stuff. Ill shoot down 195.
My thumbnail is my truck out on South Beach on the Vineyard.

Country Squire. Wow. A woody of a different time.
Happy to talk about the spare head and head bits. Would be happier to talk about the whole 360 leaving the yard, but will take what I can get.

PM if interested.
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1988 GW, 2006 Wrangler X, 2018 Wrangler Sport (JL)
Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.
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  #25  
Old 07-25-2021, 04:49 PM
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Welding results

So, I decided to weld up the mount conversion, convinced by wiley-moeracing that having an engine pop out would be a bad thing. Went to Harbor Freight and went cheap. Chicago 120 Flux Welder. Probably the dirtiest option, but seemingly effective.

Tried to keep things clean as flux residue built up, but was also experimenting with power and wire speed. I have more and more respect for the guys on TV who are clearly properly trained, and probably using MIGs.

Anyway, my welds... are not pretty. Welded the mount plate to the 3/16 bar, to keep the base solid. Welded receiving nuts to the 3/16 bar, which will accept the mount bolts. Figure I'll blue thread lock that , just in case the weld snaps.

I'm confident in the design, the fit, and 80% of the weld. Everything still measures up and hoisting the engine comes next.

PIC: My bad welding
PIC: Final piece
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1988 GW, 2006 Wrangler X, 2018 Wrangler Sport (JL)
Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.
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  #26  
Old 07-25-2021, 09:15 PM
wiley-moeracing wiley-moeracing is offline
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Not enough heat and your going to fast, slow down and use a c-e motion while welding from piece to piece. look at a couple of you tube videos to help you understand.
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  #27  
Old 07-26-2021, 01:29 AM
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I bought that welder

Youtube is full of advice videos on that exact unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsii
So, I decided to weld up the mount conversion, convinced by wiley-moeracing that having an engine pop out would be a bad thing. Went to Harbor Freight and went cheap. Chicago 120 Flux Welder. Probably the dirtiest option, but seemingly effective.

Tried to keep things clean as flux residue built up, but was also experimenting with power and wire speed. I have more and more respect for the guys on TV who are clearly properly trained, and probably using MIGs.

Anyway, my welds... are not pretty. Welded the mount plate to the 3/16 bar, to keep the base solid. Welded receiving nuts to the 3/16 bar, which will accept the mount bolts. Figure I'll blue thread lock that , just in case the weld snaps.

I'm confident in the design, the fit, and 80% of the weld. Everything still measures up and hoisting the engine comes next.

PIC: My bad welding
PIC: Final piece
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  #28  
Old 07-27-2021, 06:55 PM
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Welding: Take 2

I didn't want to post again until I had something better to show. Wiley, you're a tear-the-BandAid-off kinda guy. No frills, just straight at it.

Now with 8 minutes of YouTube training and a full 55 minutes of active welding under my belt, including the re-do of the mounts, I feel almost adequate. I watched this guy. What the video lacks in viewable technique is balanced by reinforcing this welding principle: "Control the puddle."

With that in mind, and remembering things I saw during the splatter disaster of round 1, I was able to achieve this, which is vastly improved, if still imperfect. I'll likely add a 90-degree piece to give lateral support, but this part is done.

NOW, I think it's ready for the engine to go in, which is really the whole point, and get to the other bits. Accepting advice on a good electric fan setup. The 4.0 offset fan is not gonna cut it. I've seen some options around (Taurus, Contour), but welcome other thoughts.

David

PIC: Welding, take 2
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Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.
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  #29  
Old 07-28-2021, 04:29 AM
wiley-moeracing wiley-moeracing is offline
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I run the taurus fan set up on my 97 grand cherokee, 5.2 with a/c here in the very hot southwest and it works great and looks like it was built just for it. I upgraded wiring and the alternator to handle the draw also.
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  #30  
Old 07-28-2021, 06:48 PM
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Thanks. The Taurus is the front runner. Everything I've read says that he better option. I consider that‘a the better option. Corroborated.
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1988 GW, 2006 Wrangler X, 2018 Wrangler Sport (JL)
Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.
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  #31  
Old 08-01-2021, 10:20 AM
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backroadin' backroadin' is offline
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I think those mounts look great. Don't see any reason why they won't work. The second welds look pretty good too!
I did essentially the same thing so I could use the cj mounts.
It's been too long since I messed with my mounts, but if the v8 horns are that similar to the I6 ones, maybe the difference is the placement fore/aft on the frame itself? Regardless, your setup looks good. There's a couple sets of holes for the crossmember depending on drivetrain choices, so you could fine back there.
As far as the larger boss on the bracket, I know the renix 4.0 blocks (87-90) had a knock sensor in that block boss where the 3rd bolt went for the 4.2 bracket. I had to use a large fine metric bolt in that spot. Not sure if that's what you were refering to.
I think the reason that there's so little info on this kind of swap is that most people don't go from a v8 to a six, and most 4.0 swaps go into 4.2 rigs and mostly cjs. But who cares about all that! The next guy who searches for this kind of thing will be glad that you took the time to do it and post it.
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"When this baby reaches 88 miles per hour, you're gonna to see some serious sht!"

73 Wagoneer - 4.6L Stroker (yeah baby!!) t176/d300, 3.73's, 33" muds, 4"spring lift, 2" body. Offy dualport w/ Quadrajet, pertronix, flowmaster.
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  #32  
Old 08-01-2021, 08:44 PM
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Engine. In.

Thanks, Backroadin'. This and other forums are invaluable for the grunt work and experience of those who've come before. Just trying to do my part to help those who come next.

The engine is in
. And by the end of the day, so was the transmission and starter. There are many things to come, but this was a pretty good day.

The mounts worked great. I did add a lateral 90-degree for additional support. The way the dog-ears of the mount hang over the frame-side ears made me nervous. Seemed it wouldn't take long before regular engine movement would fold the 3/16 steel down. The 90-degree should help.

There was enough play with the mount slots to adjust how it sat. The initial position was probably 1-degree off center, favoring the passenger side. A little muscling and persuasion from a hydraulic jack got things in line. The overall balance on the engine was surprisingly good. It sat flat without being blocked. I blocked under the lower pan before adding the transmission.

The engine was built for power, which included the addition of a later-model, rounded intake, which is also nicely smoothed and ported. It clears the original, large brake booster with probably and inch gap. Enough for normal engine torque travel.

Have yet to install the transmission crossmember. The rear bolt holes will be used. In sizing it up. It looks like it will work. My concern is the inline 6 mount ears are centered differently than my modified bracket, which uses the front slots of the 360 ears. The worry is that the 6-cylinder mounts would be centered between the slots, and I may be a 1/2-inch forward. Nothing a drill can't handle, but hoping the back cross-member position works. Will know soon enough.

After adding back the transfer case this week, using a Novak adapter (Really nice. Something about anything carved out of a solid aluminum billet), there are details and connections to come. Everything seems in range and will get sorted as time allows over the next couple of weeks.

When I bought the stroker, the owner was done with his mudding days and way kind enough to throw in some extra bits. One was an XJ front shaft, which seems to measure up to what I'll need. Will know for sure once the transfer case is in, but does anyone have intel on this? Very close in stock condition. Seems within tolerances of the yoke.

The rear shaft, not so much. I have a guy to make the modification, once the measurement is in hand, but is there a stock shaft out there that fits the bill? Feels like there should be something, but either way, should be covered.

Will go with the Taurus fan set (thanks, Wiley). Almost a bolt in and $120 new.

I had the exhaust of the shop vac blowing through the custom 30-gallon tank all weekend. Only a faint whiff of gas when it first comes on. Since I've had no nibbles to buy the thing, I'll try to chop it down to fit. May lose about 5 gallons, but that’s still a "free" 25-gallon tank. Will run the shop vac exhaust some more. And will have it running for that first cut. Comfortable that it will be a non-explodey maneuver.

Details and struggles to come, but a good day.

David

PICS
Engine Ready To Go In
Engine In

Final Mount

Drivers-Side Mount
Passenger-Side Mount

Tank Vapor Evacuation
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1988 GW, 2006 Wrangler X, 2018 Wrangler Sport (JL)
Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.

Last edited by dsii : 08-02-2021 at 01:28 AM.
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  #33  
Old 08-02-2021, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backroadin'
As far as the larger boss on the bracket, I know the renix 4.0 blocks (87-90) had a knock sensor in that block boss where the 3rd bolt went for the 4.2 bracket. I had to use a large fine metric bolt in that spot. Not sure if that's what you were refering to.
I think the reason that there's so little info on this kind of swap is that most people don't go from a v8 to a six, and most 4.0 swaps go into 4.2 rigs and mostly cjs. But who cares about all that! The next guy who searches for this kind of thing will be glad that you took the time to do it and post it.

Yes, we're talking about the same spot. A knock sensor makes sense, but in my case there were no threads at all, and it was a slightly out of round. There's a definite "one of these things is not like the other" look for the 19mm bolt head matched up with the 14mms on the other holes, but does the trick. Drilling out the bracket was fun. 1/2-inch bit is just undersized, and the next step up at the hardware store required a larger chuck. A round rasp made quick work of it, though.

David
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1988 GW, 2006 Wrangler X, 2018 Wrangler Sport (JL)
Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.
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  #34  
Old 08-02-2021, 09:32 PM
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backroadin' backroadin' is offline
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4.0's from 91 up didn't use the knock sensor, so that boss wouldn't have been tapped at the factory.
I bet you could fab up a tranny mount with a 1/2" offset to the front or back if it came down to that.
If you're using factory holes for the crossmember, then there should be a driveshaft that corresponds to that combo. I think the 258 used the back holes? I don't know what the stock 6cyl shaft measures, but someone should. Mine is a shortened Jtruck one since my lift and swapped out tranny made my original too short. (cheaper to shorten than lengthen.) I had the parts truck though, so I didn't have to buy one. Probably would've cost more to buy it than pay the shop.

Made me chuckle to see all the tools on that inner valance or whatever it's called over the grill. Looks like mine when I'm working on it. Jeep sure did give lots of useful places to put tools and parts! Except when the socket you need rolls down and drops into that hole by the hood spring......
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"When this baby reaches 88 miles per hour, you're gonna to see some serious sht!"

73 Wagoneer - 4.6L Stroker (yeah baby!!) t176/d300, 3.73's, 33" muds, 4"spring lift, 2" body. Offy dualport w/ Quadrajet, pertronix, flowmaster.
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  #35  
Old 08-03-2021, 05:16 AM
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Thanks, Backroadin'. I'll know more on the driveshafts once the transfer case is in.

As for the mystery boss, the block is a later model 4.0 block, not stack to the '92 it came out of. I pulled all of the codes off the block (which means I took pictures of them while it was out for future reference), but haven't attempted to track down just what it is.

The one problem with the tool-storage valance is that it makes things uncomfortably lumpy when you have to go Superman straight to get to back bolts. Other than that, it's high capacity storage.

I bolted up a few things yesterday (radiator, power steering pump), and test fit the exhaust pipe that came with the engine. The hope was that it would line up well enough to use stock Cherokee exhaust up through the tail pipe.

It was dead on. It falls right in line with what remains of the Wagoneer exhaust. Same clearances.

That was good news. Will order up the remaining parts and cross that off the to-do list.

Cross member comes next. Rough fit says it's close, but won't know if it's close enough until bolts are added.

David

PIC: Exhaust lining up
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Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.
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  #36  
Old 08-03-2021, 07:15 PM
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22 minutes in 22 seconds

22 minutes in 22 seconds.

This is the 6 cylinder going in. That wobble in the first second, and the subsequent dickering around was the left hoist wheel slipping off the work platform and nearly toppling.

I'm not blessed with a garage or paved driveway, so I made an 8x8 platform, and two "runways" to allow the hoist to get under the front.

Could have been a very short video. The rest is lowering, raising, self-doubt on fit, and eventually landing.

As a bonus, I'm wearing a "vintage" Parry Ellis mock-turtleneck long-sleeve tshirt. It wasn't stylish when I bought it, and the intervening 18 years did nothing to improve it. Kept my arms from the grubbiest of things, so it did the necessary work.

And yes, those are seatbelt straps. That's what lifted it when we picked it up, and there was no reason to change plans.

VIDEO: 22 minutes in 22 seconds
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Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.
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  #37  
Old 08-03-2021, 07:44 PM
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That was awesome!!!
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  #38  
Old 08-03-2021, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsii

The one problem with the tool-storage valance is that it makes things uncomfortably lumpy when you have to go Superman straight to get to back bolts.
Yup, and then when the milk crate I'm usually standing on kicks out on me and the only thing holding me up are said lumpy tools gripping my ribs. Oh, that and the raidiator cap lever. Can't forget about that.
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"Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads." -- Dr Emmett Brown

"When this baby reaches 88 miles per hour, you're gonna to see some serious sht!"

73 Wagoneer - 4.6L Stroker (yeah baby!!) t176/d300, 3.73's, 33" muds, 4"spring lift, 2" body. Offy dualport w/ Quadrajet, pertronix, flowmaster.
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  #39  
Old 08-16-2021, 08:40 PM
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UPDATE: Tranny cross-member placement & gas tank progress

Back after a two-week, other-projects-induced hiatus. Not as much progress as would have liked, but learned some things that may be useful for others.

The most important part was the decision to fabricate engine mounts for the 4.0L block to work with the stock 360 frame horns. It appears I'm back about 1 1/2 inches from where the transmission cross member would naturally sit for a 6 cylinder. The second, pre-drilled and internally-supported frame holes for the cross-member with a 6-Cylinder option (they're actually about 1/4-inch lower, too) are too far forward for may set up. (No Pics Yet)

To recap, I made engine mount brackets from the 360 insulators to utilize the stock frame mounts. All engine parts cleared things they'd bump into and they accepted the engine very nicely. When fitting the cross-member it was clear that it wants to be more forward than it is. The transmission (aw4) pan is over the upper part of the cross, and the stock mount could bolt 2 of 4 studs in the rear position.

The front of the engine could move forward without interfering with the radiator (mechanical fan swapped for electric), and would add clearance for the intake/brake booster issue, but also could work as is.

Fabbing up a bracket/mounting option for the cross member is doable, and would provide the necessary support. There's a plan for that and will post when complete. The back position may provide an opportunity for a stock-of-some-sort driveshaft, adding to the required shortening, but more on that when there's more to say.

So, not discouraged, but like a good road trip, needed a different map. Wrong turns = new territory.

Other Updates

Cut and welded the gas tank. To recap, I had a custom, 30-gallopn tank which would not accommodate the added length of the 4.0 block. No one made an offer, I'd bought a flux welder, and had nothing to lose. Correction, I'd say that I now have a 27-gallon tank after removing enough to accommodate the push back and notch for the speedo cable.

I'm happy with the seams, but know I'm not yet good enough to make it air and gas tight. The exterior welds are packed with a J&B Weld tank epoxy, but exterior fixes that could get crumbly over time make me nervous. I'll treat the inside with a coat of Por-15 tank sealer. Looks like some funky, but effective stuff.

The Novak adapter is mated to the transfer case, but really need the cross member sorted out before installation.

The hood is back on, if only to make it look like progress, and the wiring harness has a place to sit.

Certainly more to come, but all feels in reach. Perhaps not a path for most considering such a conversion, but one to entertain on the hottest of summer days.

David

PICS
Gas Tank Cut
Novack Adapter Mated
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Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.
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  #40  
Old 08-30-2021, 07:17 PM
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UPDATE: Steps forward, back, back, and forward

It was a frustrating week undoing previous acts of overexuberance and poor measuring. Things became clear when figuring out a transmission mount. I wanted to use the stock Cherokee mount for the AW4, but it was an inch (at least) too tall. That became clear after installing it, with no room for the transfer case to extend back.

But wait. There also wasn't enough room to fit left-to-right without hitting the frame. That took some on-the-back reflection staring at where everything was position. I was crooked coming off the mounts.
That in itself wasn't news, but I thought there would be enough play in engine mount positions to correct.

There was not.

So first things first, I made a plate to mount the stock Wagoneer transmission mount and use the back position of the cross member. That worked, and it's a better configuration for simplicity and carrying capacity (3/16-inch plate bolted to the transmission, and the ears of the mount under portions of the transmission mounting area. Solid). I Swiss-cheesed the plate a bit fitting things, but got it. As a reminder, the whole engine assembly is about an inch farther to the rear that it would like to be, likely owing to my non-standard engine mounts.

The alignment was another issue. After muscling things to the right with jacks and other persuasion, none of which made the engine mounts happy, I remembered there were two slots on the frame-side mounting horns. Both mounts were in the forward slots. A quick lift, reposition of the left mount to the rear position, and everything shifted to the center. The engine is now straight and the tranny centered in the tunnel. Nice.

On the over exuberance front, the transmission, and all of the lovely work on the crossmember and mount had to come out. I finally got around to the flexplate-to-torque converter-bolts, went to turn the engine, and it didn't budge. It had moved freely previously. Loosen all of the bolts, spin. Tighten, no spin.

Who knows what I did wrong? (try not to be too scolding).

I didn't check to see if the torque converter was fully seated before eagerly adding the transmission back. I can't say I had to jam on the bolts to get things to pull together, but I can't say that it went together with no fuss.

There was no visible damage on the converter hub or where it seats. The engine didn't turn while in this configuration, which I gather is a good thing. The pump and things inside the converter are my worry, but things felt good after it clunked (twice) into place. My worry is I don't know what I don't know… until it tells me in some horrific fashion. I don't feels that's going to happen based on inspection, but as I said, I don't know.

Setting that aside, the additional rearward position of everything does require a change in brake booster to clear the intake (newer rounded model, not squared). One's on order and will arrive shortly. I wasn't up to a hydroboost swap at this point, and will get the needed clearance. Any thought of starting needs to wait for that swap, as the intake can't seat without it. I suppose I could simply remove the other and give it a go, but weekends are my worktime, and I'll have the parts. And I need to get the tank in and plumbed.

The gas tank is cut, re-welded, rust-removed inside and out, sealed inside with Por-15 tank sealer (that stuff is pretty awesome), ands rust-proofed on the exterior.

I'm re-using the fuel-line inlet and return to keep things simpler. The fuel pump will mount inside, attached to the steel pick up tube that came with the custom tank, after cutting away the bottom half. There is a new hatch to accommodate this work, which will provide access if the pump ever dies. The original sending unit was in good shape and will get re-used. I did lower its top position slightly, to make the 1/4-tank gauge readings more consistent. There's a 4-gallon-ish high area that throws things way off. The top is now closer to the top of the main section. It'll read “full” a bit longer, but that's always a good feeling.

The new accelerator cable arrives shortly. The stock carburetor cable pulls straight back, while the fuel-injected throttle body pulls left to right. A matter of a longer cable, and the stock 4.0L works. The throttle position cable came with the transmission (nice). I have the fuel and transmission connections, also compliments of the previous owner, and have a couple of radiator connections to figure (position suggests stock 4.0L will be just fine, or close enough).

Wiring in the new harness remains a mystery, if only because I haven't looked at it. Initially, I'm putting the whole thing in when it's time to start it, and will make the least number of connections possible (5?) to mate things up. If at a later point it makes sense to pare things back, so be it, but that's not strategy # 1.

So, still many details, but the great mysteries are over and solved. If the transmission seizes, it's not a mystery, and solved with a new one.

Plenty to chew on here.

David
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1988 GW, 2006 Wrangler X, 2018 Wrangler Sport (JL)
Previous: 1989 Cherokee Pioneer, 1996 Cherokee Sport 5-speed (Red), 1997 Cherokee Sport (Green), 1998 Wrangler SE, 2002 Grand Cherokee Sport, (Gray), 2006 Wrangler X (Blue)
NOTE: If there's a color mentioned, it's the name. Not that creative.
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