more heat/carb questions

[waynestiles]

On a road trip. thought I had the vapor lock solved with the insulator gasket. Now I'm not sure. took the GW on a road trip pulling the little Shasta camper for the first 60 miles. (see pic--its small but very un-aerodynamic--like dragging a brick outhouse behind the GW) It WAS hot out--like 90+ and very humid. About every 25 miles the wagon would start sputtering, power and RPMs dropping, dying and restarting. If'd I'd try pumping the gas it's backfire out the exhaust. I'd pull over pop the hood and let it sit for 15 or 20 min it'd fire right up and run fine for another 20-25 miles. also the temp gauge was really climbing. normally it runs between the two tick-marks below 220, As it got to the misfiring stage the temps were slowly but steadily climbing up above 220, but I'd pull over for a cool down before it'd hit the danger zone.
the next day cooler and overcast I ran it almost 200 miles --without the camper --with nary a bobble.

today --hot and sunny I ran it almost another 200 down to Dayton OH --minus the trailer -- and had problems. temps were climbing again but more slowly and not as high. it ran well IF I kept steady speeds or accellerated very slowly. ran fine at 70 on the freeway. But on some 2-lanes,a couple times, when I'd stomp on it to pass a truck it started misfiring and dying. backed way off and let it settle down and was able to slowly get back up to cruising speed. seemed to choke and die when given much throttle. but not backfiring like it did when pulling the camper. I'll be facig that when I pick the camper up on my way home later this week.

i'm trying to work my way through some of the engine heat threads but wonder if anyine has any suggestions. In some ways it seems like another vapor lock problem and in others it doesn't--namely I had not noticed any temp gauge spikes when I was having the vapor lock issues earlier. I've got a long trip scheduled later this month down to central TN (without the camper) where its much hotter and I'd like to get this sorted out before than

Baffled in Dayton

Wayne

[Don S]

..

waynestiles;

I've been all though that stuff years ago with my Wagoneer.

The insulator gasket is more for boll boil-over than vapor lock.
When you climb a mountian or pull a trailer every thing gets much hotter.


Vapor Lock Quick Check List update 03.08.06
Is the engine properly tuned and running a near normal temperature?
Is the fuel a winter/high altitude grade with low boiling (vaporization) point?
Is the fuel tank properly vented? Check the fuel cap or carbon canister.
Is the exhaust system heating the fuel tank or fuel lines?
Is the sock type filter in the tank getting stopped up intermittently?
Are the fuel lines and inline filters free flowing?
Have the fuel lines got rotten or rusty and clogged up or leaking air in?
Have the fuel lines been insulated?
Is the fuel pump output the correct volume and pressure?
Is the fuel pump electric so it can pump fuel with the engine not turning?
Is the fuel return line still in operation?
Is the heat riser valve in the exhaust pipe working correctly?
Is the manifold hot air intake working correctly?
Is the fresh/cool air intake hose fastened to the air cleaner?
Is a thick insulator gasket under the carburetor to stop boil over?
Is the carburetor float correctly installed and the level properly set?
Is an air dam installed to increase air pressure at the radiator?
An electric fuel pump does not always eliminate vapor locking!
Vibrations of the fuel lines could contribute to vapor lock problems.
As altitude is gained vapor lock problems increase.
If you think the engine has just died due to Vapor Lock and it is in a safe place do the following while it’s still hot :
Turn off the ignition, put the transmission in park and set the emergency brake. Check under the hood for coolant leaks. Pull off the air cleaner and look for fuel leaks. Check that the position of the choke is fully open. Look down into the front barrels of the carburetor and pull the throttle linkage open four times. If you see a lot of mist or gasoline squirting in the carburetor it would indicate fuel pump and accelerator pump are working and you may have an ignition problem.
If no fuel squirts into the venturi area of the carburetor then there is the possibility of several problems and these are included in the previous list.
What to do? Some times a temporary fix is to cool fuel supply lines and pump and then maybe some shielding might help. Cool water has been an aid to getting back on the road temporarily so carrying a gallon of drinking water is a good idea. In many cases once a vapor lock problem starts it soon gets worse.
Try removing the filter and blowing out with a reverse flow. The flow valves in most fuel pumps will not allow the fuel supply lines to be reverse blown from the carburetor. The fuel supply line to the pump can be reverse blown and, with a helper, the bubbles should be audible in the fuel filler neck.
Heat Soak
Is heat fed back to the engine from the exhaust manifolds when the engine is turned off.
... If the engine does not start because of Heat Soak it is because the fuel in the carburetor bowl has boiled away. It is also possible the fuel in the pump chamber and the lines have vaporized. Automotive mechanical fuel pumps do not pump vaporized gasoline very well. A properly mounted HD electric pump will usually refill the carburetor quickly.
... Cooling the fuel systems will help. But the quick fix that a lot of people use is a very dangerous process. Some people pour small amounts of gasoline (less than an ounce) into the throat of the carburetor then crank the engine. Some people pour the gasoline in while the engine is being cranked. Ether way the problem is the engine will often back-fire through the carburetor blowing the gasoline back out and starting a bad engine fire. A good engine fire is one you can put out quickly and it didn’t burn off your eyelashes!

Check out the following links for help:
http://groups.msn.com/JEEPTECH101/jeeptech.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Messag e=140&LastModified=4675450264302701916

http://groups.msn.com/JEEPTECH101/jeeptech.msnw?
action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=201&LastModi fied=4675476610518545015
Have a good one and see you later… Don S..
Floods are renewable energy. Why don’t we build dams in those corn fields and generate electricity instead of growing Ethanol.

[waynestiles]

I spent most of today working on it. As far as I can tell the fuel delivery system seems to be working fine. it runs really nice (other than the heat issues) and gives me a solid 15 mpg at freeway speeds.

Today I added a 180 or 185 temp thermostat-- forget which---the Napa store also had a 160 but I thought that might be too much. I also added a heavy duty fan clutch I had purchased when I had the engine switch done--they forgot to put it on. I'm not sure exactly how it functions but I've been told it'll help the engine cool down. (Maybe someone can 'esplain it to me.) I already have a highflo water pump. Tomorrow if I have time I'll flush out and refill the coolant. Anyone have any comment on which, if any, coolant system is better?

I suspect that the main culprit is the missing fan shroud. Some @#*&##!! PO removed it. I tried all day to find one in stock somewhere that I could order on a quick PriorityMail ship basis. I needed it right away since I'm leaving next monday for another long road trip that'll have me down in TN for a couple weeks and I'm told its REALLY hot down there.
I tried all our usual vendor/suspects. None in stock--and back ordered from the supplier. (I suspect there is one plastic moulder that makes them and the vendors all drop ship from him) Zack at Z&M called me back and I told him I'd even take a used one if I had to--I figure a cobbled & patched one would be better than none at all---and he managed to find one for me and ship it this afternoon-should get here Saturday.

[Headhoncho]

Originally Posted by waynestiles

Today I added a 180 or 185 temp thermostat-- forget which---the Napa store also had a 160 but I thought that might be too much. I also added a heavy duty fan clutch I had purchased when I had the engine switch done--they forgot to put it on. I'm not sure exactly how it functions but I've been told it'll help the engine cool down. (Maybe someone can 'esplain it to me.)

I suspect that the main culprit is the missing fan shroud. Some @#*&##!! PO removed it.

The fan clutch should spin easily when cool and as it heats up with the engine it slips less until it is one with the shaft. It's malfuntioning when it slips when it's hot becoming less efficient when the engine needs it most.

A fan shroud is the most overlooked part of the cooling system. It should be on there.


JR

[Don S]

..
waynestiles;





Have a good one while you can still laugh about it.. Don S..
If something I’ve posted on the Internet warps your brain please ignore it. If you don’t know how to ignore something on the Internet send me an e-mail and I’ll demonstrate!

[danjohnson67]

Same thing was happening to me when i was above 45 mph the temp would climb even after i put a 180 thermostat in it. I did a flush & fill but I still had a lot of buildup that could be seen in the filler neck so I pulled the radiator and had it soaked and made a fan shroud out of a 55 gal poly drum cut down to size. Now at 65 mph it stays right about 180-185.

[waynestiles]

I like the idea of the recycled trashcan as a shroud . I had thought of cobbling something like that but figured I'd need to make some sort of plate to get all the air coming through the radiator to flow through the shrouded fan

I had it out this morning and ran about 60 miles of stop and go suburban driving and it was running cooler with the new fan clutch, the cooler thermostat. later today once it's cooled down enough I'll do a flush and clean and then refill it--may not make a difference but it can't hurt any. I should also figure out a way to get behind the grille and claen and de-bug the radiator.

I'm wondering about insulating the metal fuel lines in the engine bay and wonder if anyone has any experience pro or con?
I have some larger diameter black neoprene fuel hose that should be a slip fit over the metal fuel line. I also have some of that colored silicone hose that the rice-racers seem to like that should fit as well. I can't decide if the hose would help keep the metal lines cool or wind up makeing them hotter.

I also have some thin shiny aluminum tape (NOT duct tape. its used to join and finish seal the aluminum bubble-wrap insulation material) that I could wrap around fuel lines and/or hoses to reflect heat away.

[danjohnson67]

I probably should have used a metal can or drum but I had the plastic one already, it flex's a bit if you lean on it but it worked. I didn't block around the shroud, I figure whem moving down the road the air will flow thru the whole thing just fine and sitting idle it pulls a lot thru it, it doesn't move off 180.

[My1990GW]

Wayne.........I responded to you in a thread before. I installed a Carter electric fuel pump and insulated the fuel lines under the hood (combination of 5/16" rubber fuel lines cut lengthwise and zip tied, and fiberglass exhaust wrap on the headers). I knew my problem was (mainly) the header on the drivers side heating up the fuel line! I may have gone overboard, but vapor lock is a thing of the past! Hope this helps

[shimniok]

That could be vapor lock but I would also consider a fuel delivery issue as in fuel flow/volume. So, you might try changing out your fuel filter(s) and see if that has any affect. However, it is only happening when the truck is really hot so it is quite possibly vapor lock. The heat could be due to numerous issues... altho to be fair I would be surprised it new off the lot they would've been able to hold up to that kind of extremes. Still it may be worth going thru your cooling system to see if anything is amiss.

[JeepBountyHunter]

Neat idea with the trash can lid!
Wayne would like to hear what you find out after you get that shroud on, and the coolant additive...
Aaron

[waynestiles]

I'm pretty convinced that the "vapor locking" is the result of the engine getting over heated. On this last trip it was most apparant when pulling the trailer as the heat really went up. so I'm working on getting the engine/engine bay temps down before doing much more with the fuel lines.

Yesterday I did the flush/backfill thing with the cooling system. It was really ugly when draining out--kinda muddy-bloody colored. I ran it with full garden hose pressure and the engine runnning and heater on full tilt (on a 93 degree day I did NOT stay in the waggy when I was running it) untill the draining water was runnng clear with no debris showing, when viewed through a clear clean glass . Let it drain good added 2 + gal of 50/50, the water wetter stuff, and topped off with straight Peak antifreeze. I've run it a bit in place and let it cool down for additional top off. I'm using the fiero today for work but will run the GW when I get home tonight and see how it goes. I bought some cooling system "cleaner" but decided to try just a straight flush'n fill first. I can run it through next time. I can see that I need to pay more attention to cooling systems in these FSJs than I have with other cars in the past
Tomorrow the shroud from Zack (the shroud of toledo) should get here. and I'll put it on sunday morning.
This next trip down to TN should be a real test to see if/how much improvement I get.

After looking through the cooling/airflow lessons in Dan's "school of the Jeep" I may experiment with an extension of the air dam to see if I can get a better air flow out of the engine bay. while on the road today I'll give some thought to how to make it so I can remove it easily in cooler weather.

[shimniok]

I think the trashcan idea is pretty good... I wonder tho if the oem shroud doesn't allow for a little bit more airflow thru the sides of the radiator ?

Anyway best of luck, hopefully the flush will make a big difference!