Thinking about an engine swap...

[Kris]

So Im thinking about alternative engines for my Wagon.

Ive been considering three options and they all have thier benefits and drawbacks. Im not considering cost at this point. Efficency is the motivating factor. Gas out here is pushing $3.60/gal this week (diesel is $4.30+), even though I dont drive it much weekend plans are starting to suffer.

So, look at these descriptions and lemme know which way you would go.
You could probably figure out what the engines are but that really isnt important. What is important is the combination of power, efficency, and ease of install.

1. Staying with the current engine - '89 AMC360
Thanks to Ghinmi, DesktopDyno shows it to do about 240hp and 350lb/ft of torque.
Plus for this engine is that its in there already, runs fine, and has alot of life in it.
Minuses are that I cannot legally inject it in Kalifornia and the mileage sucks. Im getting 7-9 in town and no more than 11 on the highway.

2. Mystery engine number 1.
Would do about 250hp and 330 lb/ft torque. Would also come with an overdrive trans and get 12-14mpg.
Plus is that I have almost everything here to put it in and it would improve mileage some.
Minus is a referee trip to get it approved.


3. Mystery engine number 2.
Would do about 285hp and 325 lb/ft torque. Would also come with an overdrive trans.
Plus is that its probably the best all around performer and get 13-15mpg.
Minuses are that I have nothing to start the swap, everything would have to be bought/collected, but there is a package that Im thinking of picking up that would take care of most of it. This option would be the most work to install and would also require a referee trip to get it approved here.


Whadda ya think ?
kris.

[funhog]

I think one big item missing is the cost of the last 2 options. Option 1 is no additional cost. For the other you need to figure out how much you drive a year then divide that by the mileage of the 3 options, then you will know how much gas you would save. Take that and divide the total cost by that much and you can figure out how many years it would take.

Since you say you don't drive it much I would stay with the 360. It's in there and runs.

[Kris]

Originally Posted by funhog

I think one big item missing is the cost of the last 2 options.

Originally Posted by Kris

Im not considering cost at this point. Efficency is the motivating factor.

Swap cost isnt an issue to me at this point. Longterm efficency, fuel injection, and reliability are more important at this point. I have not ruled out just keeping the 360 and its efficency and smog test issues, but that is not necessarily the easiest longterm option.

k.

[mattmopar440]

MMMM BACON

If your doing a swap do a diesel good MPG and great torque

[JeepinPete]

My Cherokee with the 360/TH400/QT, 3.54 gears and 31" tires averaged 11mpg in the 10,000 miles I drove it. When it started acting up, I did the drivetrain swap. So now I am running the Chevy 5.3L/NV3500/NP241, 3.54 gears on 35" tires. I am getting 16mpg, highway or around town, with 13,000 miles on the swap. I think I would do better if my gearing was lower, IOW 3.54's with 35's ain't the hot ticket That is 5mpg better than my 360 did. Granted, switching from the TH400 to a 5 speed definitely helped, but moving from 31" to 35" tires hurt just as much. But to date, I have saved 370 gallons of fuel, or roughly $1100. It doesn't take long to recoup the cost.

Anyway, I wasted a lot of money on my swap trying to put together parts that never went together before. If you are going to do a swap, find a complete drivetrain and swap in in whole. It may be a bit more up front, but you will save in the long run. Here is a sample cost breakdown:

6.0L/4L80E/NP246 $1800
Exhaust $500
Flash VATS out of PCM $35
Driveshafts $200
Fuel pump/filter $150
Throttle cable $25
Misc $500 (being very generous here)

Thats roughly $3200. You break even in roughly 35,000 miles, have way more power, far more reliable, and far better economy.

Needless to say, I vote option two

[Billygoat]

Since you live in the not great state of Kalifornia, I say option 2 or 3.
Anywhere else I would say keep it Jeep.

Option 2 if you don't have a use for the parts you stated you have, option 3 if you are like me and consider the "hunt" half the fun.

So I voted Bacon, because bacon is good.

[YellowJeep]

I gotta guess that option 3 is a 5.3/4l60e and I am inclined to say that is the way to go. X2 on what Jeepin Pete says...get everything as a unit...or as much as you can. It turns out that GM parts departments doesn't have a problem charging a lot for parts that you need to finish a project. Example: Idler pulley for a 5.3: You can buy the pulley from autozone for like $20. But if you want the washer, bolt and spacer so you can mount it, you have to buy the whole kit from GM for $56. Things like that will add up.

Anyone given any thought to a 4.8 instead of a 5.3 or a 6.0? Gotta be better fuel mileage still. Or, what about that straight 5 cylinder they used in the trailblazers?

[mafos4471]

Originally Posted by mattmopar440

If your doing a swap do a diesel good MPG and great torque

X1000, some one on here had a bunch of 4BT's with TH-400's for sale

[DieselSJ]

Originally Posted by Kris

1. Staying with the current engine - '89 AMC360
Thanks to Ghinmi, DesktopDyno shows it to do about 240hp and 350lb/ft of torque.
Plus for this engine is that its in there already, runs fine, and has alot of life in it.
Minuses are that I cannot legally inject it in Kalifornia and the mileage sucks. Im getting 7-9 in town and no more than 11 on the highway.

Sure you can. There are several CARB legal kits now.

But my vote goes to the diesel if you are going to spend the $$ on the swap.

[Kris]

Originally Posted by DieselSJ

Sure you can. There are several CARB legal kits now.

But my vote goes to the diesel if you are going to spend the $$ on the swap.

Unfortunately that is not true.
There is only one CARB exempted FI kit for the AMC v-8 and that is the Howell. The Howell is only exempt thru the 1981 model year. I (as well as others) have been getting the run around from them on their claim to be working on having the E.O. expanded to include later model years.

I called C.A.R.B. last week and spoke to one of their engineers (who happened to be a jeeper) and after him checking and getting back to me he said that Howell has no pending or new applications in for any products.

They just lost my business for good.
Its a new engine and a referee trip or nothing. And although I did include keeping the 360 as an option due to the ease of just keeping it, Im pretty much done with having vehicles without fuel injection.

On a diesel swap, the "bacon" option wasnt to imply a grease mobile option...
Its not really an option. I am a fan of diesels and the wife and I have even considered buying something new or newer with a diesel, but for swap purposes I would only use a 6.2 and they dont grow on trees around here. I know I can pick up a complete vehicle pretty cheap but I dont have room around here to be parting a vehicle.

The two big considerations in a swap for me are a combination of efficency and ease of conversion. Option one is easier because it is pretty much all here and Im familiar with it, option two is slightly more powerful and better in the mileage department but its new territory for me.
Im realy just trying to figure out where the balance is.

So, if it were you and these were the options...

k.

[Billygoat]

Originally Posted by Kris

The two big considerations in a swap for me are a combination of efficency and ease of conversion. Option one is easier because it is pretty much all here and Im familiar with it, option two is slightly more powerful and better in the mileage department but its new territory for me.
Im realy just trying to figure out where the balance is.

So, if it were you and these were the options...

k.

If you want realativily quick and easy, go with 1.
If you like a challenge, and have time 2 is the sure bet.

It sounds like you have the time, so go with 2, and the more vehicals you have in your yard is the less you have to mow, and the more time you have to wrench.....my logic anyway

[Dmntxn77]

I say stick with the 360...

Would they even notice a TBI unit under your air hat? Eitherway, the extra money that you spend on an engine swap can be applied to gas. Unless this is your DD, I bet it would take a LONG time to make up the difference.

Also, have you considered a T18/D20 swap? I got about 12 MPG in my 79 Chief with that combo, and it was SOA on 35"s. Currently I get about 14-15 MPG in my J20 with that combo, and it is on a 4" lift and 33"s with 3.73 gears... Neither had/have any significant engine mods. I would expect to only improve with the usual stuff like HEI... Something to think about...

[Lindel]

Even with fuel injection on the 360, the mileage isn't going to allow you to make up any of the money that you spent to get it that way.

Not knowing the details of the two "mystery" engines doesn't give much in the way of helping with accurate advice.

I do know that I was figuring on about 18 mpg on the engine swap that I had planned, which would've been a 5.3L/4L60E swap, using a chevy 208 or 241 transfer case.

These are legit mileage figures based on the 03 Silverado I drive everyday.

[2003 mcs]

I got a remanufactured 360. All said and done it wasn't all that cheap. I wish I would have gone Chevy . It may take a while to realize the savings, but fueling up every 150 miles doesn't cut it. Ditch the 360. Yes you don't have to do anything right now because the engine is running fine, but it sounds like you want to do the swap. So yes go Chevy 5.3.

[The Anti-Chrysler]

Mystery #1 '96 to '00 Vortec 350?

Mystery #2 Vortec 5.3L?

I know the outputs by heart.... sad, I know. I like the vortec 350, its a simple clean motor.

[Kris]

Originally Posted by The Anti-Chrysler

Mystery #1 '96 to '00 Vortec 350?

Mystery #2 Vortec 5.3L?

I know the outputs by heart.... sad, I know. I like the vortec 350, its a simple clean motor.

I confess...
Not that I wanted a guessing game, but y'all figured out that #2 is a 5.3...
Its a good package and if I get tired of the 5.3, a 6.0 goes right in. Im aware of the benefits but I dont have alot of wrenching time. The other package is apples for apples in the torque department with the 5.3 and I have almost everything here to do it including experience with it...

Honestly its a tough call for me...



Oh... And #1 is not GM.

k.



edit :
Hey Pete. Where did all the pics in your engine swap threads go ?

[YellowJeep]

Originally Posted by Kris

edit :
Hey Pete. Where did all the pics in your engine swap threads go ?

They aren't Pete's but mine start at the bottom of this page and continue: http://www.extremepsi.org/gallery/79Cherokee?page=2

If you need a picture of a specific thing, let me know and I can snap a shot for you. Always willing to help out people doing Chevy swaps!

[Kris]

Originally Posted by Dmntxn77

I say stick with the 360...

Would they even notice a TBI unit under your air hat? Eitherway, the extra money that you spend on an engine swap can be applied to gas. Unless this is your DD, I bet it would take a LONG time to make up the difference.

They'd notice.
I drive about 200 miles a month except over the summer when we take a trip or two, so the idea of paying for the swap in saved gas dollars doesnt mean much. This is for reliability and efficiency.

Originally Posted by Dmntxn77

Also, have you considered a T18/D20 swap? I got about 12 MPG in my 79 Chief with that combo, and it was SOA on 35"s. Currently I get about 14-15 MPG in my J20 with that combo, and it is on a 4" lift and 33"s with 3.73 gears... Neither had/have any significant engine mods. I would expect to only improve with the usual stuff like HEI... Something to think about...

I have considered a manual trans, actually an AX-15 I have. I do have everything here to do that as well but couldnt justify the time and cost for the gain. I need to stay with a driver drop transfercase so the t18 (or any other granny 4spd) would require an adapter that would make it cost prohibitive.

k.

[BarryL]

TBI will make no appreciable difference in mileage. You need a modern overdrive locking transmission to do that. At 200 miles a month, going from 12 to 18 mpg on a modern drivetrain swap is only going to save a couple hundred bucks a year. Even 6 to 18 isn't saving enough to justify the expense.

At 200 miles per month, I would get a new carb and stay with the existing 360, given your statement that the current engine has no issues. A carb is fine when it has no issues. All you really need is to make sure all the externals are good. New distributor, timing chain, water pump etc.

Efficency is the motivating factor

Well, it depends upon the efficiency of what? Put your $3k or so in the bank. The interest will offset the increased cost of gas. When the price drops, you will be even better off. And you will have the 3K in the bank when you need it.

I'm looking at the same thing. Increased MPG and reliability. But my engine is tired and will need a rebuild or replacement. When, and if I modernize, then I will use it as a DD. Then and only then will the increase in MPG pay for itself.

[YellowJeep]

Originally Posted by BarryL

Put your $3k or so in the bank. The interest will offset the increased cost of gas. When the price drops, you will be even better off. And you will have the 3K in the bank when you need it.

You don't really think that gas is going to ever drop enough to make a difference do you? Sorry to say it, but $3 gas is here to stay.

The higher gas goes, the more cost effective a swap becomes assuming you are doing the work yourself. Diesel's are a great idea but turns out the cost of diesel is about 25% more in my area. That pretty much offsets any fuel economy they get (still get the coolness factor tho).

Good luck on your decision, let us know what you decide!