Bull's dead, I'm stumped.

[Sitting Bull]

I've been driving the Jeep a lot more lately, it's been running very well and I was finally starting to build up some confidence in it. Poop on that, dang thing left me stranded today. I'm looking for diagnosis help. Here's the problem/description...

Jump in the Jeep to meet Greg and grab some lunch. My gas guage sucks, so I figure I'd better put 10 bucks in just in case.

Drive 25 miles to the restaraunt, some highway, some city, Jeep driving great. Go inside and grab some grub, come out about 2 hours later.

Jump in and fire her up. The throttle response seems a little off, so I drive around the parking lot a bit. For some reason, my motor has no power. I'm getting stuck on parking lot hills with my foot on the floor and the engine at 1500 rpm right before it dies. Cell phone takes half a crap as Greg is leaving...great timing on that one.

Figure maybe she just needs warmed up. So I let it idle for a while and hit the road. Same thing. Dies on me, but luckily I have enough momentum to get into the parking lot.

Everytime I tried to restart it, it would. Not real bad either, kinda fired right up.
In park or nuetral, the engine will go up the rpm range ok, but it just feel sluggish. When in drive, no power. Basically, my engine has no *** .

So, I go through the typical stuff...bad gas maybe, perhaps fuel filter. Call Curtis, you know, my typical diagnostic routine. Curtis suggest fuel pump, or filter maybe. (My cell phone is somewhat working now, but I have no screen on it...lots of fun typing numbers like that). Send Jolie after parts.

Replace fuel pump and filter in the parking lot. And add 10 gallons of 93 octane, to conteract any bad fuel. Same problem.

Start to call a tow truck...and then figure it is still running, and I can get up hills in low range...so what the hell, let's see how she does.

Get on 285, takes me forever to get up to 50 mph, hit 400 north, same thing. As I'm driving, every now and then if feels like I have power, then just goes away. At the top of long hills I'm going 40 mph on 400!

Hit highway 92, I've got ten miles to go and I'll make it home. I make 9, then she dies. Won't restart.

OK, I've had lots of weird crap in the past with coils/ignition modules, so I send Jolie out for both. Replace those in the other parking lot I made it too. No start - not even a stumble. The starter sounds really wierd as well. More whiny than usual.

Sit there for about an hour and try again. Nothing. Give up and call a tow truck.

So, here's the problems...my motor has no *** , I've replaced the pump, filter, added high octane gas, coil and ignition module. Right now, it won't even start.

Could be the carb, but it's been running great for the last 3000 miles, and it just doesn't seem like a carb would die sitting in a parking lot.

I'm looking for trouble shooting tips and how to diagnose single items. How can I tell if my coil is getting or putting out enough power? etc. etc.

Side note, I also checked the distributer cap, everything looked fine.

[ August 22, 2004, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Sitting Bull ]

[Don S]

..
Sitting Bull;

... First look for sabotage like crossed wires or something in the tail pipe.

I forgot what engine and carburetor you have so here is some generic garbage that might help.

... … A hard to start or vapor locked hot engine can be caused by the following flooding, advanced timing, carburetor bowl boiling, choke set to rich, vapor lock, hot starter motor (close to exhaust manifold) and poor electrical connections. Ignition components such as modules, coils and distributors can temporally fail do to overheating. When the engine is stopped air no longer flows over the hot exhaust manifolds. The manifolds are going to feed heat back to the engine so everything gets very hot for a short time.
... Don't assume a new part or thing that as been rebuilt by your self or anyone are working correctly always back check.
... The first thing to do would be to find out weather or not the engine is getting fuel. With the engine hot and having just died and NOT running is pull the Air Cleaner, look for fuel pools on the manifold, a sign of a float problem. Next look down in the carburetor. Is the choke valve wide open? If it’s OK look down in the carburetor and open the throttle 4 times. If a fair amount of fuel squirts into the venturi then the accelerator and fuel pump would seem to be OK. If OK check the vacuum advance system in the distributor. On the older FSJs I pull the cap and see if the point plate advances when a vacuum is applied to the little nipple on the distributor … You can suck on the hose.
… Check all fuel filters and the ‘pick up sock’ in the fuel tank can start clogging as you drive. The farther you drive the more
clogged it becomes. Then, with the fuel pump not working some of the particles can fall off until your
pump starts to suck up fuel again. The best fix may be drop your tank and flush it out and install a new sock. A lot of FSJs come with a three nipple fuel filter. The extra nipple is for a small return (to return vapor to the tank) line and it is to be mounted with the return line at the top so it won’t drain the filter. With this system the fuel tank pressure is equalized and it helps reduce vapor lock. It is also possible the gasoline in the filter or carburetor got to hot and boiled away.
Check the operation of the hot air riser to the air cleaner that warms the air and the operation of the exhaust heat riser that warms the manifold and carburetor. These items aid in vaporizing the fuel and help prevent the engine from being cold ‘natured’ and can be plugged with CARBON(link). BUT after the engine has warmed up they can help cause Vapor Lock (link)or float-bowl boil-over. Gasoline is very sensitive to temperature for proper atomization.
… Phenoloic spacer blocks up to one inch high were used to insulate the carburetor from over heating. These may be available from Ford or some parts houses. Remember some carburetor insulators are made of plywood and you may be able to make your own.
... Is that carburetor Aluminum? did you put an insulator between it and the manifold?
... They are probably still selling winter grade gasoline up there and the Vaporization temperature can be as low as 135 degrees F.
So it is possible your fuel is boiling away from 'heat soak' when you park it.
The MC-4350 and MC-2150carburetors were also used on some Ford engines years ago. Some people have picked up the insulating spacers at Ford dealerships and other parts houses.
The latest thread about spacers is;
http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/ultimatebb....c;f=2;t=027090

Have a good one and CUL Don S..

[jode]

Bummer man
Sounds fishy
I was thinking crisscrossed plug wires till you said it died completely. Any chance the timing slipped? How bout some fried wires?
Good luck...

[bill tomlinson]

how many miles on timing chain set?
had a '83 d**** 318 (in a van) slipped a tooth, then two
your post gave me a bad case of deja vu.

[brad_fsj10]

Ditto Don and the tailpipe thing. Are you still running a converter and has your exhaust been sooty lately? It sounds to me like your exhaust system is plugged.

[jeepguzzi]

It does sound like the exhaust is plugged. But, beyond that, I would check to see if the distributor has come loose.

[jeepguzzi]

Oh, and of course I can't resist,,,,,,are the spark plugs in right side up?????

[pb]

Originally posted by Sitting Bull:
OK, I've had lots of weird crap in the past with coils/ignition modules, so I send Jolie out for both. Replace those in the other parking lot I made it too. No start - not even a stumble. The starter sounds really wierd as well. More whiny than usual.

Bad or incorrectly hooked up module? Starter issues (stuck engaged, worn out, etc)?

[River Beast]

"The starter sounds really wierd as well. More whiny than usual."

With the weird whining noise on the starter engagement....almost sounds like you lost compression somehow... hope not....

Does is 'kick' like it did normally or more easliy turning over... like no compression... lots of good ideas in the post for you to check... just throwing in a compression check might rule out the cam and/or rings.

[Sitting Bull]

Guys,

Thanks for the help, I'll go check that stuff out at my first opportunity. I was really mad last night when I got home, and needed to type the story to vent a little. I now have my wits about me again, so hopefully a calm, rational troubleshooting approach will follow.

My house is in shambles at the moment (re-siding and painting) and I need to get that mess done with before I fix the Jeep. Personally, I hate it when someone asks for help, and then it takes them a week to check what you told them too - so I'm telling ya upfront on this one! LOL! I don't want to use up all the diagnosis help when I can't work on it. So I'll put a post up in 2 or 3 weeks when I got time to wrench.

So far on my list,

Check the firing order and condition of the wires. The wires are top of the line Jacobs models, and they looked OK. I'll go over them harshly one more time.

Check the plugs, just to see if they look fouled or something. I'll probably pull four of them to check.

Check the timing. Is there an easy way to tell if the timing has jumped a tooth? If it has, the reading my light is giving me will be off as well, right?

Check the exhaust. Well, I looked down the tailpipe this morning and didn't see anything obvious. I don't have a CAT, and my muffler has always been fine. But now that you mention it, it did sound more "throaty" than usual. I passed it off as a symptom more than a cause. I guess the easiest way to check the exhaust would be to unbolt it at the manifold?

Check the compression...and pray. Actually, I'm not going to check that. I'd hate to cry in the driveway.

Check the coil. How can I check this? Specifically, how can I tell if it's putting out enough juice to really fire hard? I've got the MSD master blaster and my plug gaps at .050. Sounds like a lot but she ran like a dream before this happened.

Check the dizzy advance. How much should it move when I apply vaccuum?

Check the carb. I could use a little more instruction on this. If it's been sitting for a few days and I hit the gas pedal, will it still spray?

Gas. This one's gonna suck. I guess it could be bad gas, but as I've said before, I put 10 gallons of the good stuff in to counteract the bad. I would think if the gas were THAT bad, people would be breaking down in the parking lot. The quickest way to check this might be to put the fuel line in my 5 gallon tank.

One more wierd thing that happened. My high idle always comes on when I start the Jeep. It could be sitting in the sun on a 120 degree day, and it still takes 5 minutes to warm up (no heat riser valve - it's on the list). But when I started it up after leaving the restaurant, the high idle did not kick in. I don't wanna chase that red herring down too much, but I guess it's worth looking into.

[Sitting Bull]

Originally posted by jeepguzzi:
Oh, and of course I can't resist,,,,,,are the spark plugs in right side up?????

--------

Adam,

If you read this post, please add a few more smileys to our list to choose from. I've got one right now that I'd really like to send guzzi. Can you guess what it looks like?

LOL!

[FSJ Thing]

I don't know, this isn't along the same lines as everybody else is talking, but if you threw some gas in it right before it started having problems, I'd suspect bad gas! Check the fuel filter and fuel pump and fill her up with some good gas. Just my $0.02. Good luck buddy!

[jode]

on the timing thing - it is possible that the holddown clamp was just loose enough that the engine moved the dizzy and changed your timing…easy to check. if the timing chain skipped a tooth, I dunno how to check that other than setting the engine to TDC and seeing if the rotor is pointing to #1

[jeepguzzi]

Originally posted by jeepguzzi:
I would check to see if the distributor has come loose.

Two votes for a loose distributor.

On the bad gas, was the tanker truck in the lot when you got gas? When they make deliveries is when they stir up anything bad in the underground tanks.

I am picturing the smiley that you want to use,,,,,,I feel I deserve it.

[Sitting Bull]

Originally posted by jode:
on the timing thing - it is possible that the holddown clamp was just loose enough that the engine moved the dizzy and changed your timing…easy to check. if the timing chain skipped a tooth, I dunno how to check that other than setting the engine to TDC and seeing if the rotor is pointing to #1

----

I tried to rotate it by hand to see if it came loose, it didn't turn so that seemed OK. Here's a question I've had for awhile, when I'm turning the engine over by hand to get TDC, does it matter if I turn it clockwise or counterclockwise?

[ August 23, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Sitting Bull ]

[89grand]

I'm not sure that it matters but I'd turn the engine over clockwise, the way it actually runs.

[jeepguzzi]

Yes, I would think it matters. The timing chain would be less slack when turned the correct way. Maybe I am remembering my Moto Guzzi manual where they describe how to set the valve-to-rocker clearances. I am sure it makes a difference for that.

[Careful34]

I'm betting loose dizzy, or bad cap and/or rotor (did he say he replaced those?) Small hole in fuel line maybe? causing air to get sucked in? unlikely, i know.

[79_Limited]

Well Brad that sucks man. I would have came back and rescued you in my Wagon had I known.

Look on the bright side that was some **** good brautwurst at the restaurant.

Let us know how it goes. I am available to help if you have to do something painful like dropping the gas tank.

Greg

[Sitting Bull]

Yeah man, you talk about crappy timing. We're getting two new phones this coming weekend. That AIN'T happening again. [img]smile.gif[/img]