FSJ Newbe, Jeep guy, New build.. Help appreciated

[N2Jeeps]

Hello to all!!!!

First off... I am excited to start yet another Jeep project. I am new to the FJS and this is long winded. THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY HELP!

I am a ex-mechanic, long time Jeep guy with mild to pretty extreme build experience with under my belt. I have pretty good fabrication skills but nothing too wild. All of my experience has been on 75-91 CJs & YJ's.

Over the years I have built many Jeep projects and in the end always wished I had done more research and asked the experts before I started my mods.

I have 4 boys now so CJs, YJs, TJs are out of the question so I bought a 1988 GrandWagoneer. 360/727/NP229 F&R D44s with 2.73 gears, bone stock one owner. Pretty much the standard Grand for that year it seems.

So rather than my Rock crawler only mentality I am looking for a "do it all" Jeep this time. I want to haul the kids to the mountain bike course, ocassionally get some groceries, go see grandma, play in the rocks and....... unlike my CJs I want to DRIVE there and back. I am 700 miles from my native Colorado and do not have a tow vehicle any more. So really a do it all family adventure vehicle.

I want at least 33" I WILL lock both ends and regear. I am willing to cut the fenders but would prefer to hide my hacks with a good set of flairs. Reliability is 1st, with drivability and off-road performance a tie for 2nd.

So my cook book for right now....

Lift: I have done 3 SOA's in the past and like the results. I understand you can flip the shackles in the rear. On a CJ this yealds 4 1/2" of lift.

Q: Can I do a SOA and get 33" to articulate or do I need more lift?
Q: How does the SOA/Shackle flip do in these trucks?
Q: Do the BJ's flairs enlarge the openings, allowing for more tire?

Wheels: Do I go with standard off-set or would more negative offset help with wheel stuff?

How about the 360.. I am sure she will need a rebuild soon. I would love to fuel inject her and eliminate the dreaded vapor lock and stalls while climbing.

Gears: What ratios work for you guys with 33s at freeway speed yet still yield a decent crawl ratio?

Suggestions?

How about milage. I understand these are only good for 10-14mph which I am okay with. I am sure heavy bumpers, larger tires, highers gears are going to hit that number pretty hard. There is no real 4 wheeling in Oklahoma City so I will have to drive 4-6 hours for the real fun stuff. Perhaps the fuel injection would help some...

What are you guys getting on your mod'ed trucks?


Sorry for the long post and thanks. Anyone with a cook book recipe from your rig... please email me or post!

Thanks

Tony

[Eugene 1]

I get between 10-12 mpg your Results may vary Do a search and you will find a poll on MPG.This is always a major topic along with FI. vs.Carb check it out and Welcome to the site Lots of good info here!

[Elliott]

T&T http://www.ttsfabworks.com/ has a rear shackle inversion kit that will get you 6+"s to match a front SOA pad swap. You'll be able to keep more articulation this way compared to going to a 6" spring kit, it's cheaper and the rest of the mods required are the same... high steer, ect. Do a search for info here in the off road section and you'll find tons of info and the guys with the kit.

[Tad]

Q: Can I do a SOA and get 33" to articulate or do I need more lift?
Q: How does the SOA/Shackle flip do in these trucks?
Q: Do the BJ's flairs enlarge the openings, allowing for more tire?

33's are about right for the SOA shackle flip on a Wag/GW, maybe a bit of triming if you wheel hard but they can be cut real nice (don't look at mine, that's not nice). Our rear wheel openings are just small to start with.

Obviously I'm a bit biased but these thigs do really well SOA.


I'm not up on the flares, a member Heimiken, has done a great job (should not be hard to find).

For gears, lot's of opinion here.
I'm running 4.10's and 36's that measure 34.5, sort of a dog off the line but it will still cruise at 70 I got to give it that.

Being it's what we call a NT I would not move the wheels in any at all, they are darn close to the rear springs already, it gets worse with bigger tires. My personal choice was to go wider and cut more.

I have been tracking fuel mileage lately (read gas thief) I just finished at about 10 between on/off road mix and about 14 in town, Buick 350-4V.

I do not know squat about the 360 (or most newer rigs) but the 208 seems to be the common T-case swap, probably frees up some milage I would guess.

[fulsizjeep]

Welcome to the madness known as FSJ! Good questions and great replies so far.

I probably would not have responded more than a welcome but you have a rig like what I started with. 88 GW, 360/727/229/2.72 gears. It has been an 11 year project so far. I started with a 4" Black Diamond lift in 98. 32x11.5x15 fit easy on a 4" lift. In 99 a good upgrade was a 33 gal Aero replacement tank. Not as many stops on road trips, but the wallet shrinks fast at the pump. Getting the 32s over some obstacles took finese at times. I went to 33x12.5x15 a few years ago along with 3.73 gears, rear Lockright and trimmed 1.5" around the rear fender and just a little in the front by the lower brace. Gas mileage on the 360 was around 11.5 average after this. The 229 went out 3 years ago and replaced it with a 208 and rear drive shaft from a Quadratrac equipped Wagoneer (74-79). Perfect fit. 2 years ago I put a 401 in and that made the mpg more like 8.5 average. This Spring, I needed the front end tightened up. So Along with new drag link and bushings, I added 1" lift shackles, 4" drop pitman arm and quick disconnects on the sway bar. The sway bar bushings had been shot for around 3 years and the ends disconnected. That made for tricky road manners on rough, curvey roads. The front flexes much better now for some reason. Geometry changes, I dunno, but it works. I have done all this over time on a budget.

The wife and I have a few FSJs. One of hers has SOA and has sick flex on it. The SOA was already on it when we got it and the shackles were moved the the rear hangers. It has a little tricky road manners with the SOA. We have made a couple of road trips with it over 200 miles and you do get used to it after a bit. The curves are where you feel it. I would not want to make a lot of road trips with it and is better suited to local driving and off road use. This one is 3.54 gears w/31s and gets fair mileage for a 401, around 14.

I am not sure I would recommend SOA for a Waggy that gets much highway use. Just my experience. My SOA experience is nill beside driving one. I am sure the geometry can be set up to have better road manners but would be inclined to do it the same way I have if I had to do over.

The lift on my 88 suites me fine and I take it to Moab and Ouray a couple times a year along with some local trails. I think the 33s and 3.73 gears makes for good highway and off road use. Like I said, all on a budget. Had I been more flush when I did the gears, I probably would have gone with new carriers and 4.10 gears. The 2.73 carriers can fit down to 3.73 gears.

Here it is on Double Whammy obstacle in Moab this Spring...

The class III hitch has saved me from ripping the rear bumper off more than a few times.

Enough rambling from me. Again, welcome and good luck with your project!

[orangecherokee]

my quick 2 cents...

#1 Go to Tad and Todd on the SOA. Do the SOA!! Good flex and you already have the know how. If you want to go bigger, run the Rancho 44044 springs up front and get some 35s.

#2 Go high steer and don't mess with trying to "make it work" on a budget.

#3 ARBs are your friend. Selectable and they'll lock you right up.

#4 If you are on a budget, go with 3.73s and don't change the carriers. If you aren't go with 4.09s. I ran a 360 with 35s and 4.09s and got around 10 mpg without overdrive.

#5 Cut the fenders and talk to Heimeken about the flares.

#6 The 360 is stout and I would suggest the Holley Pro-jection with the closed loop kit. Not too bad price wise and will get you what you want as far as EFI goes. When it comes to gas mileage you can argue carb vs. FI but when it comes to offroad, you might as well put a toilet bowl on your engine if you run a carb.

#7 I'm out of time. I have to go to my anniversary dinner. Good luck.

[N2Jeeps]

Well... I am impressed. The FSJ world is alive and kicking! Thanks for all the info. Searching the archives has helped a TON.

So new Qs if you guys are up for it.

I checked the what hits what fits and I see that 33x9.5s fit with almost nothing on stock rims. So.. it seems the fenders are the real limitation on these beasts.

I am spoiled on MTs and I see that the BFG 33x9.5s are no longer made. I have to go 33x10.5 which is not in the what hits what fits.

Q: If I went the simple way and did a BJ's 4" how much trimming would I have to do to fit 33x10.5s.

Q: Would those fender flares you guys pointed me to give me a larger opening?

Q: It looks like the W/Ts can fit 33s on a 4" lift. Would getting different rims with more backspacing do the same thing?

I am trying to fit 33s on this guy. Have it fit in the garage and keep the CG down.


Thanks again.... you guys are awesome!

Tony

[BRUTUS]

Here is Heimiken's webpage http://snow.prohosting.com/heimeken/ for the fender flares and A LOT more information that you will find helpful.

I haven't driven my SOA J-truck yet (still in shop) but I think from what Flinty McQuadratrac is saying about the SOA may be true on highway manners... I don't thinky Flint has a front sway bar either. I would think a sway bar would bring road manners back to normal specs. Not sure what year they started putting sway bars on (because I have only seen one on a '91 Gwag). Something to look into.

Other than that I can't really comment because J-trucks differ from wags as far as hit/fit goes!

Good luck and welcome to the group. Look forward to seeing you in Ouray or Moab!

[fulsizjeep]

Originally Posted by BRUTUS

I haven't driven my SOA J-truck yet (still in shop) but I think from what Flinty McQuadratrac is saying about the SOA may be true on highway manners... I don't thinky Flint has a front sway bar either. I would think a sway bar would bring road manners back to normal specs. Not sure what year they started putting sway bars on (because I have only seen one on a '91 Gwag). Something to look into.

That is DOCTOR QT Jason... I have actually had patients survive surgery too!

I have heard varying opinions on when the sway bar was standard equipment. It was optional in the mid 70s. The 75 we are stripping is sans sway bar. Krista's 76 SOA Wag was never equipped with one (not even mounts on the frame). The 76 Cherokee we got my 401 out of does have one along with her 77. We have seriously thought about taking what we need for the sway bar off the Cherokee to compliment the 76 SOA. If we do that, it will have disconnects on it too.

[fulsizjeep]

Originally Posted by N2Jeeps

Q: If I went the simple way and did a BJ's 4" how much trimming would I have to do to fit 33x10.5s.

Q: Would those fender flares you guys pointed me to give me a larger opening?

Q: It looks like the W/Ts can fit 33s on a 4" lift. Would getting different rims with more backspacing do the same thing?

Q1 - Not sure on the 33x10.5s. I have seen a few GWs with the 33x9.5s and no trimming was needed to stuff the tires in the wells. You may want to roll the seams between the rocker and body down and roll the rear end of the rockers and just above the seam in right at the front of the rear fender well. If there is gonna be rub in the rear, it usually starts there. I have seen that with 31x10.5s on a 2" lift on 2 different Wags and with my 32x11.5s on the GW 4" lift. Rolling the offensive metal out of the way keeps the stock look without trimming.

Here is the result of 33x12.5s on mine without the trimming done.

More on the trim work here: http://frontier.net/~mystkblu/wallytrim/

Q2 - yes

Q3 - The WTs have wider axel and larger wheel well openings. Deeper wheel offset on a NT would push the tires out to get closer to the edge of the fender well and probably sipe the tires if there is no trimming.

[N2Jeeps]

If 33x9.5s fit on a stock N/T Grand Wagoneer with only 2" blocks in the back....

and after looking at everyone's suggestions to look at Heimeken's XJ flares I have to ask.....

I assume that a BJ's 4" and a Heimeken XJ fender flare job would easily fit 33X12.5s without any rubbing. Those flares look huge and seem to fit his 35s with ease.

What do you guys think? How is the ride with a 4" BJs lift compared to stock? Could I run the 4" and 33x10.5s with minimal trimming or is this a hack job?


Thanks for letting me ramble. Newbe all the way right now. Perhaps someday soon I can actually help you guys

Tony

[Tad]

Not sure about all those things but Heimeken's Tractor is SOA on that rig, pretty sure he has been since mid 2002.

[billyrb]

With the Bushwacker flares, they allow you to trim the body for larger tires. For 33's w/o rubbing on a 4" lift, you'll need to trim about 2 or so inches. The 4" lift is stiffer than stock, but once you break it in it's a great ride.

If you decide to go SOA, you'd be an idiot not to go with TT's Fabworks kits. Todd-n-Tad are THE experts for SOA and have worked out the hard parts for you.

All in all, it depends on your budget, skill level, tools and what you want to use the vehicle for. And everyone is different in the above categories, so don't take anyone's advice as the perfect situation for your needs. Read up on all types of lifts, what other folks have done, what they think now that they've installed their type of lift, what kind of driving they do, what they use their rigs for mostly, and what things they would have done differently. That will help you the most. Oh, and if you have the chance, ride along with local folks that have the various types of lifts you are considering. That too can help out a lot.

[jtr]

SOA

Front

Spring over. I added a second leaf (cut down to fit the shorter FSJ leaf pack) out of a rear 63" Chevy leaf pack. Used the longer Chevy shackles too. I have heard (not personal experienc) that SOA without aal can turn the main leaf into an S. Plus I needed the extra lift to fit 35".


Rear

I used 4 of these things from Sky Manufacturing, moved the front of spring down approx. 7" and flipped the rear shackle, also gave me the opportunity to move the rear axle back 1.5" to avoid cutting the front part of the wheel well. The back does sit a 1.5" higher than the front but w/ camping gear, tools, and tire carrier I think it will be about level??



Misc.

When you flip things over use the factory front spring plates, the old sway bar mounts will work great for new front shock mounting points.

Braklines.

I used ones off a early 90's Chevy pickup, bolted right up and plenty long enough. Plus I got them at NAPA!


I have done lifts on F150s, motor swaps, solid axle conversions but my Jeep has been the most fun to wrench on....everything just works. Been a great project. Enjoy