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  #1  
Old 05-03-2006, 11:41 PM
Mutt Mutt is offline
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Just bought my first Jeep... few questions

Hey All,

I just bought my first Jeep tonight and have some questions. It's a 1987 Grand Wagoneer. I just swapped a Cummins 4BT into a 1967 Bronco and love it due to the power and 30 mpg I'm getting now. I plan to do the same with the Grand Wagoneer. I already have the Cummins and an NV4500 tranny, but am undecided on the t-case.

I went to pick up the Jeep tonight and the weather here is simply not cooperating (Colorado). Here are my questions. What is up with the front axle? It appears to be a Dana 44 driver side drop, but I'm unsure and know NOTHING about Jeeps. This is sort of a crash course education for me. Also, there seems to be a shortage of FSJ forums out there that are actually helpful. This one appears to be one of the better ones I've found.

I'm just looking for some info about the Axle setup. It appears to have auto locking hubs because there is no selector on the outer hubs. Is this right? Are they full time engaged, or is there some sort of vacumn controller on the axle? (It was dark, muddy, and two front flat tires... no way I could see) Can this axle be converted to selectable hubs like the Chevy and Ford Dana 44's?

That's pretty much it for the questions. Does anybody know of a Waggy that has been converted to a diesel before? I would appreciate any links you guys can provide. From what I understand, the AMC 360 weighs 580 pounds, which is 100 pounds lighter than the Cummins. Do you guys have a suggestion for custom springs, or do you think they are necessary. I want 4" of lift and 32" tires.

Sorry to sound like such a newby, but .... well... I am.

My purchase was a '87 GW completely rust free. Everything works including power windows, power seats, ac, etc. The engine knocks because it was starved of oil on a boat ramp (this is why he sold it).

I got it for $500. Seemed like a fair price. Comments?

Thanks, and a pleasure to meet you all...

Jim
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  #2  
Old 05-04-2006, 05:57 AM
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Elliott Elliott is offline
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Not that familiar with the later axles, I believe it is vacumn disconnect. I don't know if your NV4500 is 2 or 4wd but if 2wd you could run a divorced Ford NP205 Tcase if that'l fit with the stock gas tank. If your 4500 is 4wd you could possible mate it to a Ford NP208/205 with an input swap and either a clocking ring or redrill you adaptor bolt pattern onto the TC.
There's a guy on here that put a 4bt in his M715, probably ran a divorced case IIRC. You can search here using "4bt" and it'll probably pull up. Also search at www.m715zone.com
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Last edited by Elliott : 05-04-2006 at 05:59 AM.
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  #3  
Old 05-04-2006, 06:26 AM
joe joe is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutt
Hey All,

Here are my questions. What is up with the front axle? It appears to be a Dana 44 driver side drop, but I'm unsure and know NOTHING about Jeeps. This is sort of a crash course education for me. Also, there seems to be a shortage of FSJ forums out there that are actually helpful. This one appears to be one of the better ones I've found.

I'm just looking for some info about the Axle setup. It appears to have auto locking hubs because there is no selector on the outer hubs. Is this right? Are they full time engaged, or is there some sort of vacumn controller on the axle? (It was dark, muddy, and two front flat tires... no way I could see) Can this axle be converted to selectable hubs like the Chevy and Ford Dana 44's?

Yup in an 87 it's a conventional D44 front axle and a centered D44 rear. Stock gearing will be either 2.73 or the optional 3.31's(std w/tow package).
The front doesn't have auto-hubs it's just engaged all the time and yes you can easily install manual unlocking hubs in it.

BJ's Offroad, Rusty's and other make lift kits for these but they don't take into consideration a dsl swap(extra weight). For extra beef you might want some custom springs made up from National Spring?

The swap you're doing dozens of us here have thought and drooled about. Please keep good records and take lots of pics so we can all learn. Oh yeah Mutt welcome to the forums. This one is 'the" place for FSJ info.
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  #4  
Old 05-04-2006, 07:27 AM
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rustywagoneers_com rustywagoneers_com is offline
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post lots of pics when you do it, and by all means, do it...

d44 outers are 'essentially' the same, so lockouts are no problem, and iirc, the 87 will not have a vac disco axle...

are you sourcing the 3.9's from GM bread vans or ?

peace
Dave
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  #5  
Old 05-04-2006, 08:00 AM
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J10Mike J10Mike is offline
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also, if i may add to what those guys said. i have lift springs and added 235 pounds of a bumper/winch combo. i did not notice a decrease in height. i did notice that the front springs seemed less stiff if anything.
Oh...Welcome aboard.
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  #6  
Old 05-04-2006, 03:17 PM
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my88wgn my88wgn is offline
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don't have any info for your swap but as you know by now.the front is a D44.but hey you found the #1 place for fsj info.part of being able to post & ask ?'s is that progress pics are manditory welcome.
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  #7  
Old 05-04-2006, 03:50 PM
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trailsforus trailsforus is offline
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yes yes yes...lots of pictures and step=by-steps if possible cause the 4bt swap is in my (wayyyy distant) future.


-Dillon
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  #8  
Old 05-04-2006, 07:38 PM
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Carl Rasmussen Carl Rasmussen is offline
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As far as you Diesel Swap I want to do the same thing pm me please
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  #9  
Old 05-04-2006, 08:09 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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A 4" lift should be OK with 32"s. If the engine is really lighter than the AMC, you're probably fine with regular 4" lift springs. Otherwise, Alcan can make new ones for you, and depending on where you live in CO, you can drive over and pick em up yourself.

Don't forget to check out www.cfsja. We're the local Colorado spinoff of the IFSJA.
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  #10  
Old 05-04-2006, 08:22 PM
Mutt Mutt is offline
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My turn to answer a few questions...

Wow, there are a lot of you guys interesting in the swap. I received a bunch of PM's and emails with questions about the Bronco/Cummins swap. Well here goes a few specs:
  • Cummins 4Bt CPL 858 w/ 105hp and 285 lb/ft torque stock
  • The 16 CM turbo was replaced with a Holset 9 cm turbo because the smaller turbo works more effieciently with the light-weight (4800) pound Bronco
  • It is not intercooled, anymore. I did have a bar/plate Spearco intercooler on it, but found that it did more harm than good because of the light load placed on the engine.
  • By simply adjusting two screws on the injector pump, it is now dyno'ed at 155 hp and 475 lb/ft torque, at the wheel, at 1650 rpm. Don't let the 155 hp figure fool you, it out acclerates my old 289 that was originally in the Bronco.
  • Tranny is an NV4500 out of a full size Dodge utilizing the tranny/engine plate that comes on the 6BT Cummins/Dodge trucks. In other words, I used all over-the-counter parts. NO ADAPTERS.
  • I could have used an NP241 t-case from a gasoline dodge 4x4, but it was too large to fit between the narrow frame rails of the Bronco. Thus, the reason for the Atlas II. I do plan on using an NP241 in the Grand Wagoneer as it is internally pump lubed and is synchronized so I can shift on the fly at highway speeds. I'm not building a crawler out of the Jeep, more of a trail runner, camper, fishing rig that will get groceries as easily as take me to Grizzly Lake for some fly-fishing.
  • I have been sourcing my Cummins 4BT's from Frito-Lay step vans. Most of the vans come with TH400 tranny's and hydroboost. The most I have ever paid for a van is $2300. I then sell the aluminum body to a local recycler for $850. He gives me $75 for the frame. And the rear ends are popular swaps for RV. I've sold two for $250 each. As you can see, when scrapping out the whole van, the engine typically cost no more than $1000.
Here is a link to my Bronco site. https://home.comcast.net/~jcmiley/ Don't you guys judge me for driving a Ford. I'm an equal opportunity vehicle sort of guy. Not really partial to any particular brand. Everybody has their gems and.... well.... their turds for lack of a better term. My inventory currently includes a Duramax, BMW, Bronco, Jeep, Olds 442, and a Frito-Lay van!

Please feel free to ask any questions you may have on the conversion, or anything else for that matter. I love helping friends out and of course making new friends.

Looking forward to contributing here,

Jim
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  #11  
Old 05-04-2006, 08:40 PM
Mutt Mutt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J10Mike
also, if i may add to what those guys said. i have lift springs and added 235 pounds of a bumper/winch combo. i did not notice a decrease in height. i did notice that the front springs seemed less stiff if anything.
Oh...Welcome aboard.


That is good to know! Seems BDS is a very popular brand for spring/lifts.

Jim
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  #12  
Old 05-04-2006, 08:41 PM
Mutt Mutt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJ Guy
A 4" lift should be OK with 32"s. If the engine is really lighter than the AMC, you're probably fine with regular 4" lift springs. Otherwise, Alcan can make new ones for you, and depending on where you live in CO, you can drive over and pick em up yourself.

Don't forget to check out www.cfsja. We're the local Colorado spinoff of the IFSJA.

Thanks Ethan, I went with some Alcans on a Blazer project several years ago and was very pleased.

Jim
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  #13  
Old 05-04-2006, 08:45 PM
Mutt Mutt is offline
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Parts Houses

I should probably ask this in a new thread in the General Forum, but since you guys have been so responsive....

Where are you guys sourcing your parts from. Interior, seals, body trim, etc...? I found a few (literally ... few) online sources but HOLY COW. I thought Bronco parts were expensive. I stumbled across one outfit in TX that is selling GW's for around $25k! I've been offered close to that for my Bronco, but it is heavily modified and I think I could justify that price. Those GW's in TX looked to be stock with new paint. Don't get me wrong, they look nice, but ****!

Jim
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  #14  
Old 05-04-2006, 08:57 PM
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trailsforus trailsforus is offline
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If you dont know about http://www.bjsoffroad.com/ already you should. they are the number one fsj part suppliers...they might be the only dedicated one actually.

I will be reading up on your 4bt swap.

PS; looking forward to a fsj dedicated site also...the bronco cant have all the webspace can it?

-Dillon
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Last edited by trailsforus : 05-04-2006 at 08:59 PM.
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  #15  
Old 05-05-2006, 06:04 AM
skunked skunked is offline
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BTW did you know JEEP stands for Just Empty Every Pocket?
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  #16  
Old 05-05-2006, 06:30 AM
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shimniok shimniok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutt
I went to pick up the Jeep tonight and the weather here is simply not cooperating (Colorado). Here are my questions. What is up with the front axle? It appears to be a Dana 44 driver side drop, ...

It's a Dana 44, open knuckle, yes. That's the case for all FSJs 1974-1991.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutt
Also, there seems to be a shortage of FSJ forums out there that are actually helpful. This one appears to be one of the better ones I've found.

Well, it's not a forum, but there's a mailing list / club right in your backyard that FSJ Guy mentioned, the Colo. FSJ Assoc. http://www.cfsja.org/ is the website and it has a link for subscribing to the mailing list. I think most of us on that list would love to hear more about the 4BT swap.

We're planning a M&G in Castle Rock on the 13th, you should come down and meet some of the crew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutt
I'm just looking for some info about the Axle setup. It appears to have auto locking hubs because there is no selector on the outer hubs. Is this right?

I've heard them called drive flanges. They're basically solid metal chunks with splines inside and out that keep the hubs engaged always (for shift on the fly). It is a cake walk to swap in manual hubs. Scour the junkyards like pull-n-save or Colo Auto Parts for other FSJs or 1/2T D44 front with hubs in 'em.

I'd love to see/hear more of diesel conversions. I have toyed in my head with the idea of running a 6.2L someday only because it weighs in the ballpark of the AMC motor. Didn't know the BT was 100# heavier. I'd be concerned about emissions issues with that one (isn't it purely a fleet truck motor?) I don't want to have to extensively re-engineer to safely run an 1100# motor.

I'm wondering what kind of reasonable power one could expect... is there a junkyard (cheap) solution to getting turbo on either or both? To make it worthwhile I'd need to be getting 20-25mpg hwy, and have enough power to make the I-70 climbs cruising at 65-75 hwy speed. I figured it out and I am probably geared perfectly for a diesel if I upgrade to 35's.

For custom springs, Alcan comes up time and again... but for an extra 100# I dunno? I'd just run regular 4" lift kit. You can get away with 33's and 4" if you're willing to trim a bit in back. More info on cfsja website under Tech, there's a lift kit article.

Sounds like you got quite a deal.

Hope all my rambling is helpful...

Michael
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