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  #1  
Old 02-12-2004, 05:28 PM
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Hey all - just cruising through the Rancho catalogue, and noticed that Rancho is claiming to sell 3" front lift springs for '63-'73 wags (PN RS24043)

I thought nobody made lifts for early wags?

Also, Rancho's catalogue shows that their RS44044s fit Wags from '74 and up....

I thought '74 and '75 wags were post mount (making it so the 44044s wouldn't fit...)

Can somebody clear me up on all this?

TIA
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Old 02-12-2004, 09:40 PM
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Hmm, not sure but I'll be draging out the tape again this weekend it looks like. I was under the impression that the fronts were the same across the years and only the rears gave us trouble (talking wags and chero's here not trucks).
We'll see, got several here that can be measured.
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Old 02-13-2004, 02:26 AM
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Well - that xplains it - if the fronts are the same, then that would mean that they could make a spring lift for the front end, and that the 44044s would fit the 74-75 years.

So now my question is, why don't you early jeep guys just buy the front lift springs and throw some blocks under the rear? Sounds like a lift to me, and I had always been told there was no lift for the early rigs...
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Old 02-13-2004, 03:24 AM
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didn't we have this arguement before jode

I've tried to stay away from blocks personally. I've heard too many horror storys about them on the trail.
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Old 02-13-2004, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LRRH:
didn't we have this arguement before jode
LOL

Didn't know we were arguing....
I think that you have taught me previously that all pre-76 FSJs are post mount. That is why I was surprised to find that there were lift springs available for early wags...now Tadsal is saying that the front of early wags is not post mount (if I am interpreting what he wrote right)...
I am very confused about the whole thing and just trying to figure out what is really going on...not trying to argue with anyone...so if you have some info, I'd like to know about it.

PS - The whole thing about blocks is blown WAY out of proportion. Yes, they are not the "optimum" way to get lift, but thousands of people (including myself) have run them for years with NO ill effects. Is there a better way to lift? Yes, but blocks are cheap, allow you to retain stock ride quality, and are easy to install. IMHO, blocks have earned a bad rep on this board only due to a certain member who is constantly preaching against them for the promotion of his own product. They aren't THAT bad. Just my $.02
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Old 02-13-2004, 07:39 AM
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4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado is offline
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Many, many factory p/u's have blocks on the rear up to 4 inches thick on them....Go look at any late model Dodge for instance....My mid 80's Ranger had em too....

If you use blocks all that you are losing is some control of the axle....So maybe under acceleration up a dirt hill that is rough, You may have a little wheel hop with blocks, prolly wouldnt have as severe of wheel hop with springs...

The spring will twist more with blocks because you are creating more leverage against the spring...So if your not drag racing or doing major 4x4'n you will not notice a real big difference between blocks or springs....I wouldnt use blocks over 4in thick..

Just please dont use blocks on the front..

I know the early front springs are several inches shorter than the late ones...So they dont interchange...
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Old 02-13-2004, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado:
I know the early front springs are several inches shorter than the late ones...So they dont interchange...
Yes - that explains why there is a different part number for the 63-73 wags and for the 74-91 wags.
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Old 02-13-2004, 09:23 AM
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Yeah, I mean, I'm getting the 4" lift from BJ's with all 4 springs but I think the block problem has been blown way out of proportion. I was going to bring up the factory blocks in Dodge, among others too not to mention the tools driving the Superduty's with like 8" blocks. I'm not saying blocks are it especially the dumbass 8" ones under Ford SD's but I think with a 4" lift, which would probably come with only 3" rear blocks, under most circumstances no one would even know they were running blocks if you didn't tell them. Now on the front, well they would be lowering blocks unless you've got SOA. I think blocks of 4" or less are pretty reasonable. I'm not going with them but only because I want 4 new springs and the additional cost doesn't bother me, if I was on a budget I'd get blocks.

[ February 13, 2004, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: 89grand ]
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Old 02-13-2004, 10:42 AM
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Sorry - I hijacked my own post with the whole block thing....I am still interested in finding out what the deal is...if anybody can explain the whole thing to me (if these springs actually are a lift for early wags), I would appreciate it.
TIA
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Old 02-13-2004, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jode:
Sorry - I hijacked my own post with the whole block thing....I am still interested in finding out what the deal is...if anybody can explain the whole thing to me (if these springs actually are a lift for early wags), I would appreciate it.
TIA
IIRC, the wagon front springs came in 44" & 47"... neither were post mount in the front.
The early JTrucks do use the post mount front springs and they were also 44" (post mount) or 47" (spring under frame).
At the back of the Rancho catalog you can check the part # you have for the early wagon and it gives you all the specs for that spring. The RS 24043 should fit the '66-'73 wagon front and give ~3" of lift.
Hope that helps.
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  #11  
Old 02-13-2004, 02:31 PM
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Elliott - awesome info.

So there is a lift for early wags (besides Bjs)
Crazy - it's just that I had always been told that nobody made lifts for those early FSJs...now it is starting to look like the wags are supported from 63 on and that it is only the trucks that you cant get a lift for until 76.

Thanks for getting out the specs Elliott
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  #12  
Old 02-14-2004, 04:45 AM
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Yep, those numbers check out the same here.
Interesting is that on the older 44" springs the center pin ia at 22" forward from the rear eye.
On the newer 47" springs the center pin is at 23" forward from the rear eye.

This is something Kenall brought up in a post I had about a year ago that I didn't understand then.
Guess I'm going to knock the rear hangers off and relocate them so I can use the newer springs.
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  #13  
Old 02-14-2004, 11:23 AM
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I ran the rancho 24043 springs for about 500 miles before I parked it for a ground up. SAVE YOUR MONEY!!! They ride like a pogo stick and are complete junk. I only got maybe 2.5 inches of lift and the ride quality sucked so bad it actually made me angry I spent that much money for them. I've driven 4x4's all my driving life and I do know what a lifted rig should ride like. When the cosmetics are done (lots of really shiney chrome and stainless!!!) I plan on a BJ's lift. So in a nutshell, the rancho springs really suck big time. Save you're money and buy something that works....
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  #14  
Old 02-14-2004, 12:57 PM
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Ok,maybe I can shed some light. 1974-1975 rigs were shackle mount in the front, post mount in the rear. 1976-1991 rigs were shackle mount all around. 1963-1973 were post mount all the way around. Rancho 44044's are sold for the fronts of the older rigs. Most folks use them for SERIOUS off-road rigs. They allow much more droop than other springs, including ours. But, the on-road qualities is, as I understand, not as good as normal springs. I can't attest to the longevity of their height.

Blocks: bad idea. I know many folks will disagree with this opinion, but they aren't the best option. They are an inexpensive way to have a lift, but compromise your suspension. When you have major flex, articulation, or a "surprise" load, they can fail. This is NOT to say that they WILL fail, but many people each year experience failure (ie: your spring & vehicle weight shift, the block works free or breaks). If you can afford a lift with blocks, you should SERIOUSLY consider being patient for a little while longer and buying a full spring kit. You and your rig are worth the small price difference (look at it over the coarse of a few months, and the amount isn't all that big).

I also know that lots of folks are fully capable of forming their own opinions, and will still go the block route. That is a personal choice. When people call or email me, I express my thoughts, and sometimes even lose a sale. I'm okay with that.
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  #15  
Old 02-14-2004, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by billyrb:
...1963-1973 were post mount all the way around...
NO
Wags and cheros are all shackle mounted up front, only the Jtrucks have front post mounts in the early years.
You got you numbers backwards too.


[ February 14, 2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: tadsal ]
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  #16  
Old 02-14-2004, 02:30 PM
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75 and older wags/cheros still have a shackle in back. Only the shackle is mounted to a post. Where as 76 and newer have a box mount.

And as tad said, wagoneers and cherokees have always been the spring under frame, front shackle mounting setup. J-trucks are the only ones with post mounts in front, and they had the shackle at the rear eye of the front spring. Until 74, when they switched to spring under frame.
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Old 02-14-2004, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by billyrb:
Blocks: bad idea....they aren't the best option.
Quote:
Originally posted by jode:
PS - The whole thing about blocks is blown WAY out of proportion. Yes, they are not the "optimum" way to get lift, but thousands of people (including myself) have run them for years with NO ill effects. Is there a better way to lift? Yes, but blocks are cheap, allow you to retain stock ride quality, and are easy to install.
I'll say it again - just one more time - thousands of people - (personally I have done serious 4 wheeling with them without any ill effects for years) have run them for years...even wheeled them pretty hard...without having any problems. They aren't the best way, for sure, but incidents with them are rare, and compared to the number of people who run them without ill-effects, are insignificant.

Stuka and Tadsal - thanks for all the great info...I think we are finally getting to the bottom of all this (tadsal - that is the chart I was looking at).

Kaiserjeeps - interesting review I wonder if those who have installed the 44044s on their rigs have experienced the same? All I hear about the 44044s is roses, and I would assume the ride would be somewhat the same as the 24043s
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Old 02-14-2004, 06:35 PM
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jode: blocks arent dangerous so long as they arent stacked on top of each other, and arent over 4" tall. But... what does happen is axle wrap, this can lead to broken axle shafts, bent springs, loss of traction.

If you want to go with blocks, I would just find a way to add an anti-wrap bar for the rear axle, this will get rid of the bad side effects of the blocks.

Personally I run 2" blocks, and with the shackle flip,I do get some axle wrap (shackle facing up minimizes axle wrap a lot, shackel facing down makes it twice as easy to get). But I dont consider them dangerous at all. I have run them for 3.5 years, no problems at all.
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Old 02-14-2004, 06:48 PM
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Stuka - fo sho!

i have run 4" blocks in the rear of mine for 4 years (and the PO ran them for years prior to that.) I have done several trails that I had no business being on in Moab, I have done some moderately nasty wheeling here in Idaho, I drove to Ouray and my wife drove the rig ALL over the mountains from there to Durango as she supported me and some friends (who were riding (mt bikes) over part of the Colorado trail.

I know what the side effects are of the blocks and I can honestly say that they have NEVER caused me a problem. I have never even known they were there. In fact, IMHO, they are at the EXACT same level (or only just SLIGHTLY lower) as lift springs on the list of ways to lift a Jeep - I personally don't think that lift springs are that great of an option either and I think they have their downsides as well.
Anyway, that is just my $.02 and it will never fly on this forum (where lift blocks are somewhat akin to cursing the heavens in Sunday mass) so I won't bother to go into it.
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:24 AM
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i love how many experts there are on everything..

evidence of truth: my 1972 waggy has a shackle setup in the front, and (had) upside down shackle on post in the rear.

anyone know what the different offsets are on the front springs. someone mentioned 44" and 47" front springs..

i thought my 1972 springs were centered, but I'm not sure. Are the later models centered?

I could pick up a little wheelbase, and some lift with 44044's..
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