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  #1  
Old 04-26-2012, 08:05 PM
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Suddendeath Suddendeath is offline
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Brake Issues

So far I've replaced :

New calipers, pads, master cylinder, extended brake lines about a year ago. Brakes worked fine after this work.

New rear brake line due to it blowing is the cause of my issues. Quickly replaced it but master cylinder ran dry. I've since then replaced both rear wheel cylinders and put in another master cylinder. Yes I bench bled it.

I've bled the brakes about 10 times. Pedal goes to the floor with basically no effort. I've bled out the prop valve and that helped, but no where near street safe. I've pulled the magic pin on the prop valve out and had bled them, I've pushed it in and bled them, no dice. I get steady fluid with no bubbles at all four corners. I've gravity bled it. I've two man bled it. I've put gallons of fluid through this thing. No its not leaking.

What is going on??
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  #2  
Old 04-26-2012, 08:08 PM
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Flare/Crimp a little piece of brake hose and use it as a plug for the MC. Check the pedal and keep working your way down. Divide and conquer!
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  #3  
Old 04-26-2012, 08:31 PM
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jeepfan93 jeepfan93 is offline
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good advise, it'll tell you if it's the front system, rear, or another bad MC
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  #4  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:06 PM
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I have nothing to add other than the observation of irony with respect to the thread title and the OP's screen name.
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  #5  
Old 04-27-2012, 02:00 AM
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Heavy_Metal_Thunder_81 Heavy_Metal_Thunder_81 is offline
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I'd guess a bad master cylinder. I've gotten plenty of bad ones from the parts stores.
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  #6  
Old 04-27-2012, 07:06 AM
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Headhoncho Headhoncho is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy_Metal_Thunder_81
I'd guess a bad master cylinder. I've gotten plenty of bad ones from the parts stores.

That's where I would start even if the one you already have is new. I also like the idea of isolating the m/c with blockoff tubes. I did that with my Mustang which I replaced the ENTIRE brake system on. Took a while to bleed it all out but it's like new now.
Oh, and we (BattlewagonNJ and I) bled it the normal way: pump and bleed. Not a big fan of gravity or vacuum bleeding.



JR
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  #7  
Old 04-27-2012, 11:57 AM
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Suddendeath Suddendeath is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Headhoncho
That's where I would start even if the one you already have is new. I also like the idea of isolating the m/c with blockoff tubes. I did that with my Mustang which I replaced the ENTIRE brake system on. Took a while to bleed it all out but it's like new now.
Oh, and we (BattlewagonNJ and I) bled it the normal way: pump and bleed. Not a big fan of gravity or vacuum bleeding.



JR

Update:

Plugged off both lines coming out of the master cylinder. Pedal is rock solid. That means master cylinder is good, right?

Next, I hooked up the line for the rear wheels. Front wheels were still plugged. Pedal was slightly squishy, but wouldn't hit floor. Bled the rear brakes a few times, pedal became rock solid. Nice!

Next, I unplugged the rear brakes and plugged the port in the MC and then hooked up the front wheels. Pedal was slightly squishy. Bled them a few times, gets nice and solid. So far so good...

Next, I hooked up both front and rear and the pedal is squishy and basically goes to the floor. I bled the whole system starting with passenger rear, driver rear, passenger front, driver front. No improvement.

I'm completely out of ideas here. Is it possible my proportioning valve is bad? It's the only thing I haven't replaced yet??
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1990 GW:
Mopar 440/727/229/D44F&R
10:1, XE250H, DIY TBI. 4.10 locked f/r, SOA/SF, high steer, all the other fancy goodies. Check out my build on FSJNETWORK.
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  #8  
Old 04-27-2012, 06:15 PM
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Is it possible the MC is not the right one? If the bore is too small, you will have too much travel.
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  #9  
Old 04-27-2012, 06:47 PM
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The Colonel The Colonel is offline
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Does the brake warning light come on?

Even though the pedal goes to the floor, have you checked to see if the brakes are holding on each wheel? ---if so which ones hold and which ones don't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel
Is it possible the MC is not the right one? If the bore is too small, you will have too much travel.


It's possible, remove the MC and measure the bore.
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  #10  
Old 04-27-2012, 10:25 PM
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Suddendeath Suddendeath is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel
Does the brake warning light come on?

Even though the pedal goes to the floor, have you checked to see if the brakes are holding on each wheel? ---if so which ones hold and which ones don't?



It's possible, remove the MC and measure the bore.

My gauge cluster isnt in right now, but as of the time it was in (yesterday) the light was coming on periodically during the bleeding process.

The MC is the right one, same exact one I replaced just a new one.
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1990 GW:
Mopar 440/727/229/D44F&R
10:1, XE250H, DIY TBI. 4.10 locked f/r, SOA/SF, high steer, all the other fancy goodies. Check out my build on FSJNETWORK.
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  #11  
Old 04-29-2012, 02:22 PM
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Suddendeath Suddendeath is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddendeath
My gauge cluster isnt in right now, but as of the time it was in (yesterday) the light was coming on periodically during the bleeding process.

The MC is the right one, same exact one I replaced just a new one.


Anybody?

If I plug the front, I can stop the truck with firm pedal using the rear brakes. If I plug the rear, I can stop the truck with firm pedal using just the front brakes. If I have both hooked up, the pedal is iffy.

What the heck????

I've pulled and re-bled my master cylinder and that didn't help. I even bought a powered bleeder, bled the whole system AGAIN, and still no dice.

I can't keep throwing brake fluid at this thing.

It's to the point where I called the shop to just pay a mechanic to do this, and the mechanic flat out told me not to bring it by because if I can't figure it out he cant.
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1990 GW:
Mopar 440/727/229/D44F&R
10:1, XE250H, DIY TBI. 4.10 locked f/r, SOA/SF, high steer, all the other fancy goodies. Check out my build on FSJNETWORK.
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  #12  
Old 04-29-2012, 03:28 PM
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Is it possible that the rear shoes are so out of adjustment that it takes too much fluid for the shoes to make contact?
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  #13  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:01 PM
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I posted a link to this thread at POR. Hopefully someone will figure it out. You can answer here to their posts, or posts photos here.

Or you can register there... It only takes a minute.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1062656
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Last edited by Mikel : 04-29-2012 at 05:23 PM.
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  #14  
Old 04-29-2012, 06:32 PM
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serehill serehill is offline
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LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddendeath
Anybody?

If I plug the front, I can stop the truck with firm pedal using the rear brakes. If I plug the rear, I can stop the truck with firm pedal using just the front brakes. If I have both hooked up, the pedal is iffy.

What the heck????

I've pulled and re-bled my master cylinder and that didn't help. I even bought a powered bleeder, bled the whole system AGAIN, and still no dice.

I can't keep throwing brake fluid at this thing.

It's to the point where I called the shop to just pay a mechanic to do this, and the mechanic flat out told me not to bring it by because if I can't figure it out he cant.


Find a better mechanic that was going to be my suggestion was to take it to a shop. Something very obvious is being missed. Everything you are describing is either:
M/C too small.
Air in the line.
Rear shoes badly adjusted.
A good brake man would have it going in 2 hours.
or less.
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If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
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  #15  
Old 04-30-2012, 11:04 AM
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Suddendeath Suddendeath is offline
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I checked the adjustment on the rear shoes, they're good. Hit the brakes and you can't pull the drums off if your life depended on it.

I'm going to try another MC. This one is a rebuild unit, but so was the other new one I put in months ago that worked fine. This week I'll pick up a new, not rebuild unit, and try that out.

Just really fed up with this thing right now, going to let it sit for a few days to work on other projects.

Thanks for the help guys, I'll keep you all posted.
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1990 GW:
Mopar 440/727/229/D44F&R
10:1, XE250H, DIY TBI. 4.10 locked f/r, SOA/SF, high steer, all the other fancy goodies. Check out my build on FSJNETWORK.
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  #16  
Old 04-30-2012, 12:51 PM
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serehill serehill is offline
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Good luck

Not trying to be mean but sometimes you just need an objective eye.
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
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  #17  
Old 04-30-2012, 01:05 PM
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the original Honcho the original Honcho is offline
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Dollars to donuts says its the MC

Rebuilt master cylinders suck! I'm on my 4th MC on my Chevette right now and it still sucks. i have a remanufactured with a lifetime warranty. (if no lifetime warranty I would have spent the money on a new one a long time ago)
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  #18  
Old 05-01-2012, 03:09 PM
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Manually readjust the rear brakes. They can still stop if out of adjustment, but not as good as if they are tightly set, then backed off.
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