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  #1  
Old 12-18-2011, 08:26 PM
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Strode Strode is offline
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Opinions needed on emissions questions...Denver area

Hello all. I'm well into tearing apart my '82 Cherokee for a full restoration. I've rebuilt the transfer case so far, and have started stripping everything down for the body work and painting.

I will be rebuilding the 727 and the 360, if only to get it to stop puking fluid all over my floor. It's never run under it's own power for me.

(I'll be posting a build thread when I get far enough along)

So, when I've started studying the engine, all the emissions stuff and vacuum hosing is downright depressing. I can't believe all this stuff works in harmony to produce a good running machine. I'm lucky that I believe it's all 100% stock right now, and nothing has been removed. Except for the mech fuel pump was taken out and there's an electric now.







I'm trying to hack out a master plan for the engine & driveline, and I need to know what everybody's experiences are with emissions testing on their FSJ.

I have to pass Denver area emissions. In looking at the Clean Air Colorado website, the 1982 are the 1st year for rolling on the dyno tests. All I can find for limits are these:

1982 & Newer Light-Duty Passenger Vehicle Limits

Year CO HC NOx
1982 45.0 3.5 5.0


1982 & Newer Light-Duty Truck Limits

Year CO HC NOx
1982 65.0 6.0 6.0

I'm assuming a FSJ would be a light duty truck? I think a good running engine would pass those limits without 80% of the crap that's on the engine now.

Here's my questions:
1) If everything is kosher (I rebuild the carb, replace all the vacuum hoses, do the ignition upgrades, etc) does this setup with all the stock emissions work well?
2) I will keep the catalytic converter obviously, and the air pump. Can I get a non-EGR manifold like an Edelbrock and a Holley 4V and still pass emissions? What if any of these vacuum hoses, air cleaner lid vacuum traps, charcoal canister and other stuff can I get rid of to simplify everthing? Can I meet those standards with aftermarket parts?

I don't need to pull stuff off for the hell of it. If if works well I'll keep it, but....holy cow. What goes where?

Ideally, I'd like to go with a Holley 4v, a different manifold...and get rid of most of this stuff. Does anybody in the front range area know how far the emissions inspectors visually check under the hood, other than the obvious stuff like the CatConv and the air-pump?

Thanks for the help.
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  #2  
Old 12-19-2011, 10:19 PM
flying_squirrel flying_squirrel is offline
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check it out if you haven't already. The guy who wrote it is a moderator on this forum. His explanation is very straight forward and informative.
http://tc.wagoneer.net/sblog/static...._vac_emissions
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  #3  
Old 12-19-2011, 10:27 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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That's a good link. With all the devices hooked up and working correctly, FSJ's are supposed to pass easily. The also includes a well tuned carb.

You will want to retain all the emissions control devices. They may not necessarily check for them, but when working, they WILL reduce emissions.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:09 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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Good luck with it!

I 100% recommend you change at least one thing and that is too install a "TFI" ignition system. It's basically a new much stronger coil along with a new distributor cap and wires. It's a 'tune up' and should be done to help it run better and pass emissions easier.

I posted pics and part numbers in my Goofy build thread. Link in my signature. You will also find emissions information in there.
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  #5  
Old 12-20-2011, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying_squirrel
check it out if you haven't already. The guy who wrote it is a moderator on this forum. His explanation is very straight forward and informative.
http://tc.wagoneer.net/sblog/static...._vac_emissions

Thanks for the replies.

Squirrel, that's a wonderful link, thanks alot.

Blake, the TFI upgrade is definitely on the list. I have your's bookmarked.

FSJ, I was really hoping to change the carb/manifold to a Holley/Edelbrock. Alot of the emissions stuff is built into that Motorcraft carb. I hoped I'm not doomed to keep it.
I also think the Edelbrocks I have looked at (I haven't researched too much) are non-EGR.

I love me the sound of some secondaries opening up.

I don't want to pull it all off just for the sake of removing it.....I just don't see how I can keep all of that stuff and do what I want.
Does anybody have a formula for what's really important to keep?
I know the air pump and the cats for sure.
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  #6  
Old 12-20-2011, 08:51 AM
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Without an EGR it may be very hard to pass NOx.
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2011, 09:11 AM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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First, it's unlikely that you will pass smog inspection with a replacement carburetor and manifold. The only way you would pass is if the inspection in your area does not include a visual inspection, and only a tailpipe sniffer test. If you tune the engine properly and add your 4V carb, and there is no visual, you might pass. In that case, you'd probably need the help of a shop or mechanic with an exhaust gas analyzer so that you could get some feedback about how your tuning changes with the new carburetor are affecting the emissions.

There is a 50-states legal EFI conversion available for this car from Howell. When you install that, you remove most of the vacuum plumbing associated with the emissions devices. Not cheap though, about $1500 last I looked. But it will improve cold-weather starting and overall driveability a lot, and fuel economy a little. Since you're putting a lot of effort and money into this car, it might be worthwhile investigating.

And +1 with Jlamb, unlikely you'll pass NOx without an EGR valve. Even Howell retains the EGR valve.

For the factory devices, the place to start is the vacuum diagram from the factory manual. Did you buy the factory manual? I'm fairly familiar with what's on the '82 360, and it looks to me like it's all there and in good shape. Here's the diagram from '81, which is pretty close: http://oljeep.com/gw/vac/81/81_360_4...DCool_1600.jpg Doesn't show the TAC devices, or vapor recovery unfortunately.
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  #8  
Old 12-20-2011, 09:59 AM
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  #9  
Old 12-20-2011, 04:44 PM
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Thanks for the info, everybody.

Tgreese, so far I've been working off the manual posted on the oljeeps page, which is great to have, but it's kinda difficult to go thru the pages. I think I might spring $90 for the one's from BJs.

I was wondering about fuel injection. Do you get some sort of emissions certification paperwork if you buy a Howell FI system to show the inspectors?

I've wondered how they deal with cars that have an LS engine swaps. It's obviously cleaner running, but it isn't stock.....do they pass those?
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  #10  
Old 12-20-2011, 04:56 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
First, it's unlikely that you will pass smog inspection with a replacement carburetor and manifold.

Not true in Colorado.

The 'envirotest' employees typically don't know anything about emissions and certainly don't know anything about what came stock in a particular car.

You can swap in any type of intake/carb you want. As long as it has an air pump and cat, it will pass the visual inspection.

However, if you swap in a LS engine, they will FAIL you because it doesn't have an air pump.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:35 PM
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Blake, do you have do the test in Longmont? They've expanded it, haven't they?
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  #12  
Old 12-20-2011, 05:39 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strode182
Blake, do you have do the test in Longmont? They've expanded it, haven't they?

Yes, hence the reference to my build thread.
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  #13  
Old 12-20-2011, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strode182
I was wondering about fuel injection. Do you get some sort of emissions certification paperwork if you buy a Howell FI system to show the inspectors?

You get a CARB (California Air Resources Board) sticker for under the hood. And the system is set up to pass the tailpipe test.

May be true about the inspectors in CO. But you'd only pass if they are incompetent. You'd want to make it look like a factory install, and you'll definitely need an EGR valve or the NOx will be too high to pass.

Look at discussion about the Howell kit, and you'll find the "after" vacuum diagram that may be helpful.
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
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  #14  
Old 12-20-2011, 07:40 PM
Eric S. Eric S. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
However, if you swap in a LS engine, they will FAIL you because it doesn't have an air pump.
What if you install an electric one?
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:15 AM
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They will only be looking for air and a cat on your vehicle. Go ahead and change the carb and they will never know if you removed the EGR or other components.

I ran my 79 as an 82 (so I could tune it to the IM240 run, 79 is only a tailpipe test) I do not have an EGR and I did pass but I am sure the reason is because it is running rich. I have a 1406 Edlebrock with 89 secondary jets and 92 primary. The limit is 65 grams for CO and just came under at 62gpm. This was the only area that was high. It is nice that 82 yr trucks have such liberal standards. For reference they are 6gpm for HC, 65 gpm CO, 6 gpm NOx. If I could get it to run a cleaner, CO would drop and NOx would raise.
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlamb
They will only be looking for air and a cat on your vehicle. Go ahead and change the carb and they will never know if you removed the EGR or other components.

I ran my 79 as an 82 (so I could tune it to the IM240 run, 79 is only a tailpipe test) I do not have an EGR and I did pass but I am sure the reason is because it is running rich. I have a 1406 Edlebrock with 89 secondary jets and 92 primary. The limit is 65 grams for CO and just came under at 62gpm. This was the only area that was high. It is nice that 82 yr trucks have such liberal standards. For reference they are 6gpm for HC, 65 gpm CO, 6 gpm NOx. If I could get it to run a cleaner, CO would drop and NOx would raise.

Thanks. What do you mean you ran your '79 as an '82? What's the IM240 run?

I see Edelbrock has EGR 4V manifolds, so I don't have a problem keeping the EGR. The charcoal cannister has a purpose, that fine. But a newer Edelbrock or Holley won't have the input from the charcoal cannister that has a solenoid at the front of the carb, so......?

Mostly what I want is a 4V carb, and to get rid the stuff that seems to be put there to meet federal standards for cold weather starts & stuff. Like the dual vacuum flappers on the snorkle, and all those Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley* vacuum lines, check valves, & tees.

The Motorcraft carb looks specifically built to take the

Thanks for the links I've been given. Some of those are really helpful for mapping the vacuum lines & stuff. I need to study them, and come up with a plan.

*EDIT: How did the Great Googley Moogley stuff get in there? I didn't type that! You guys have a script that puts that in there when key words are typed? Like vacuum lines? Ha
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Last edited by Strode : 12-21-2011 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:54 AM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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The heater riser "flapper" actually helps with cold starting as it is designed to draw in warm air (warmed by the exhaust manifold) until the engine warms up.

IM240 is the dynamometer "roller" test. 4 minutes (240 seconds) of simulated driving at moderate and highways speeds.

1981 and older trucks get the old 2 speed test (idle and 2,500 rpm).

BTW, don't use cuss words and you won't get censored.
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJ Guy
The heater riser "flapper" actually helps with cold starting as it is designed to draw in warm air (warmed by the exhaust manifold) until the engine warms up.

IM240 is the dynamometer "roller" test. 4 minutes (240 seconds) of simulated driving at moderate and highways speeds.

1981 and older trucks get the old 2 speed test (idle and 2,500 rpm).

BTW, don't use cuss words and you won't get censored.

For "dam*? Ok

I have 2 flappers. The one I understand for the warm air, the other one I don't.
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Last edited by Strode : 12-21-2011 at 10:54 AM.
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  #19  
Old 12-21-2011, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strode182
For "dam*? Ok

I have 2 flappers. The one I understand for the warm air, the other one I don't.

IIRC it's for emissions, it should be closed when the engine is not producing vacuum for a long time (i.e. when it's off).
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:36 AM
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IM240 run is the test Colorado uses for light duty gasoline vehicles 1982 and newer. It stands for Inspection/Maintenance 240 seconds (that is how long the drive on dyne takes) The drive trace is a section of the federal test procedure.

I work at a place that has software and dyne that can run the IM240. I entered my vehicle as a 1982 instead of a 1979 so I could run it and see what it put out. I did this because I feel clean emissions are a result of a properly running vehicle. My readings are high so there is room for improvement.

The charcoal canister generally will not cause failure (with current CO test) unless the collector is picking up stray HCs from the vehicle or it is so saturated so bad that it is flooding the carb with excess fuel.
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