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Old 02-26-2011, 12:45 AM
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blazer3664 blazer3664 is offline
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D60FF vs 14FF worth swapping?

What I am wondering is, if I already got the 60 is there enough difference (strength) between the D60FF and 14FF to make it worth the trouble to find someone to work a trade or sell the 60 to buy a 14?

Lookin to pick up a parts truck ('79 F250) this weekend, and soon join the "I got a 60 up front" club. Its got D60's front and rear, and a 205 so I will have almost all the major parts (got my 203) for my doubler. Can't pass it up for $800, keep axles and T-case, part the rest, and might break even. If that happens I'll order the kit and be set except for shafts, and I can cut the furd shafts on a buddies lathe and lengthen/shorten as needed for now.

Not too worried about gears, they will need changed anyway, lowest Ford used from what I can find is 4.10's.
+ for the 14
The 14 is actually fairly common with 4.56's like I want, and I could always weld it and run it.

+ for the 60
more lockers, I'll already have it (as long as this deal goes thru)

Opinions ?????

Thanks,
Jim
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1978 Cherokee chief AKA = Butt Ugly
Current status = BACK under construction
modified body w/TJ flares
AMC 360, junkyard TBI, 4L80e
NWF doubler w/
upside down 203
SOA D60/14B-FF
custom shackle flip w/F150 springs
H1 wheels + (for now) tires
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  #2  
Old 02-26-2011, 03:38 AM
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jeeping1974 jeeping1974 is offline
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What size tires and how hard are you going to be running it?
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  #3  
Old 02-26-2011, 05:02 AM
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blazer3664 blazer3664 is offline
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38-40" tires and it will get wheeled pretty hard, but I dont have big rocks local (2.5 hr drive), so major crawling will only be occasional.
Trails, logs, hills, mud, sand, and smallish rocks, sometimes all mixed in one and a little jumping, but no big air. Going to a 203/205 doubler too. Kinda leaning towards the 14, since I can probably find one with 4.56s already in it.

Jim
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1978 Cherokee chief AKA = Butt Ugly
Current status = BACK under construction
modified body w/TJ flares
AMC 360, junkyard TBI, 4L80e
NWF doubler w/
upside down 203
SOA D60/14B-FF
custom shackle flip w/F150 springs
H1 wheels + (for now) tires
-----Coming Soon-----
snorkels,
home brew OBA+OBW




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Old 02-26-2011, 06:14 AM
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Twinpinion Twinpinion is offline
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Unfortunately, yes. The 14-bolt is significantly stronger. Your full-floating Dana 60 rearend likely has 1.31-inch 30-spline shafts, essentially the same size as a Dana 44 (although there is a rare version with 35-splines). It's true that the floater makes them a little more durable, but the 14-Bolt has larger shafts that are more comparable (and stronger) than a typical stock 35-spline 1.5-inch shaft. And as far as the ring and pinion go, the 14-bolt is massive. Huge increase in strength here.

Overall it sounds like it will be a less expensive route for you to go with the 14-bolt, that is if you can accept the decreased ground clearance.

Another option is to look into a Dana 70 HD. The 70s are a little more difficult to work with because there are several versions. But the HD has 35-spline 1.5-inch diameter shafts and a hefty ring gear in a package that's pretty much the same size as a Dana 60. They both use the same diff cover. But again, just not as common or as adaptable as the 14-bolt.

I hate the 14-bolt because it's a boat anchor but it's really hard to beat it's low-cost strength.
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Last edited by Twinpinion : 02-26-2011 at 06:16 AM.
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Old 02-26-2011, 06:25 AM
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blazer3664 blazer3664 is offline
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Quote:
Your full-floating Dana 60 rearend likely has 1.31-inch 30-spline shafts, essentially the same size as a Dana 44 (although there is a rare version with 35-splines).

Thanks, that part I didn't know. I am going to be looking for a 14, it will save me regearing one axle anyway.
I already planned on shaving the shtuff## out of it if I went with a 14. A buddy of mine got his to 1/4 less hang than a 44, but its cut and got 1/4" plate on the bottom, dont think I'll get that crazy, but you never know.

Jim
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1978 Cherokee chief AKA = Butt Ugly
Current status = BACK under construction
modified body w/TJ flares
AMC 360, junkyard TBI, 4L80e
NWF doubler w/
upside down 203
SOA D60/14B-FF
custom shackle flip w/F150 springs
H1 wheels + (for now) tires
-----Coming Soon-----
snorkels,
home brew OBA+OBW





Last edited by blazer3664 : 02-26-2011 at 06:28 AM.
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  #6  
Old 02-26-2011, 10:09 AM
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I was able to get my 14-bolt darn close to a D60 by removing almost 7/8" and still kept the lower bolt hole.
http://members.cox.net/fsjntechstuff/babyshave.JPG

I dumped a few FSJ D60's along the way to a 14-Bolt, not so much for cost (they were already mine) or strength (I don't wheel that hard) but mainly for replaceability. If I break or bend something 300 miles from home all I really need is a town with 3-5K people and I'm sure I can find another or the parts I need.
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  #7  
Old 02-26-2011, 01:24 PM
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nod 14 bolt has alot more easy "findable" parts if something should break.i just got thru beating mine up this morning in the rocks and made it home just fine.i literally mean beat it on the rocks.everyone asked if i was driving by brail!and i havent done anything except disc breaks and 5.13's!
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Old 02-26-2011, 04:17 PM
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bearfacedkiller bearfacedkiller is offline
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the 14 bolt has a pinion support bearing which makes it much stronger. It is one of the only axles with it. That said, the 60 does have more clearance and weighs less and can run 1.5 inch 35 spline shafts with a carrier swap. I believe the 35 spline 60s came in fords so you might want to check yours if it is a special model like a camper special or snow fighter. Not a ford guy so don't know for sure. If you are going lower than 4.10 you will need a new carrier anyway. I went for the 14 bolt because I got one from a cucv with 4.56 and a detroit for cheap.

14 bolt is cheap and strong!
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  #9  
Old 02-26-2011, 07:30 PM
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Also, a 14bolts are a dime a dozen and can be had for less than a hundred dollars with 4.10 gears already installed!!!
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearfacedkiller
the 14 bolt has a pinion support bearing which makes it much stronger. It is one of the only axles with it. That said, the 60 does have more clearance and weighs less and can run 1.5 inch 35 spline shafts with a carrier swap. I believe the 35 spline 60s came in fords so you might want to check yours if it is a special model like a camper special or snow fighter. Not a ford guy so don't know for sure. If you are going lower than 4.10 you will need a new carrier anyway. I went for the 14 bolt because I got one from a cucv with 4.56 and a detroit for cheap.

14 bolt is cheap and strong!

It's stronger because it has a pinion support bearing? Come on man. The 14-bolt is stronger for a lot more notable reasons than just that. Huge 10.5-inch ring gear, heavy housing, giant 1.69-inch full-floating shafts...

The Dana 60 it's being compared to has a much smaller 9.75-inch ring gear and typically 1.31-inch shafts. Saying the 14-bolt is stronger because of the extra nose bearing is like saying the NASA space shuttle is more advanced than the Apple iPod because it has tires.

The reason it has a pinion nose bearing is because the separation between the two main pinion bearings is less than ideal. The 14-bolt needs that nose bearing to properly support the pinion gear and keep it from deflecting under load. Dana 60s, 70s, and 80s don't have or need that nose bearing because the separation of the pinion bearings is a greater distance. I mean yeah the nose bearing is a great design and all but that's not what makes the 14-bolt strong. In a way it's a band aid for not enough pinion bearing separation. And arguably that design is not really needed for most Jeeps. It's built that way to control deflection during extremely high torque loads like towing. Sure a lifted Jeep with big tires sees some torque loading but nothing like that. Ultimately the 14-bolt is stronger because of much more notable reasons than the extra pinion bearing. All of it's parts are freaking big and made with a lot of steel.
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Last edited by Twinpinion : 02-27-2011 at 06:32 AM.
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  #11  
Old 02-27-2011, 10:19 AM
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In my opinion too 14 bolts are so much easier to work on then Danas.
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  #12  
Old 02-27-2011, 10:35 AM
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14bff all day
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  #13  
Old 02-27-2011, 07:39 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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I'm running a 14bolt with 5.38's and a detroit in the truggy. Can't seem to break it.

D60's FF rears are good too. I just picked one up from an 82 dodge with 4:09's
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:59 PM
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blazer3664 blazer3664 is offline
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First off, thanks for the opinions guys. I am goiing 14b for sure.

The turd deal fell thru anyway. Asked 3 times on 3 seperate phone calls, "yep its a 60" "yep kingpin 60". So,$100 in fuel and 3 hours later I get there and NOPE, 44 I told him I was not happy, cause I asked 3 times if he was sure. His answer,"I checked the rear and it a 60. I thought they would be the same." My quiet response "So I guess if you had a 3/4T chevy it would have had the ever elusive 14 bolt front hm" I had to leave in a hurry, I was getting madder with everything he said. I did tell him the other one he had listed as 44front 9" rear should note the front is TTB not straight. Then drove 3 hrs back.

End rant, sorry. Still kinda pissed

Good outcome, I found a set of gm 1 tons for the same moneys. May pick them up Saturday.

We'll see.

Jim
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1978 Cherokee chief AKA = Butt Ugly
Current status = BACK under construction
modified body w/TJ flares
AMC 360, junkyard TBI, 4L80e
NWF doubler w/
upside down 203
SOA D60/14B-FF
custom shackle flip w/F150 springs
H1 wheels + (for now) tires
-----Coming Soon-----
snorkels,
home brew OBA+OBW




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  #15  
Old 02-28-2011, 04:10 AM
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jeeping1974 jeeping1974 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearfacedkiller
the 14 bolt has a pinion support bearing which makes it much stronger. It is one of the only axles with it. I went for the 14 bolt because I got one from a cucv with 4.56 and a detroit for cheap.

14 bolt is cheap and strong!

The pinion support is a huge bonus in my eyes. Plus the fact that you don't need to measure spindles to see if there is enough material to bore them out for 35 spline shafts. Setting up gears in a 14B is much easier than a D60 as well. If you want to shave it, you can just take a sawzall to the lower chunk and gain some clearance that way. Ballistic also makes a kit where you can shave even more off and they will even turn a R+P set for you.
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Old 02-28-2011, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeeping1974
The pinion support is a huge bonus in my eyes. Plus the fact that you don't need to measure spindles to see if there is enough material to bore them out for 35 spline shafts. Setting up gears in a 14B is much easier than a D60 as well. If you want to shave it, you can just take a sawzall to the lower chunk and gain some clearance that way. Ballistic also makes a kit where you can shave even more off and they will even turn a R+P set for you.

X2
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Old 02-28-2011, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinpinion
It's stronger because it has a pinion support bearing? Come on man. The 14-bolt is stronger for a lot more notable reasons than just that. Huge 10.5-inch ring gear, heavy housing, giant 1.69-inch full-floating shafts...

The Dana 60 it's being compared to has a much smaller 9.75-inch ring gear and typically 1.31-inch shafts. Saying the 14-bolt is stronger because of the extra nose bearing is like saying the NASA space shuttle is more advanced than the Apple iPod because it has tires.

The reason it has a pinion nose bearing is because the separation between the two main pinion bearings is less than ideal. The 14-bolt needs that nose bearing to properly support the pinion gear and keep it from deflecting under load. Dana 60s, 70s, and 80s don't have or need that nose bearing because the separation of the pinion bearings is a greater distance. I mean yeah the nose bearing is a great design and all but that's not what makes the 14-bolt strong. In a way it's a band aid for not enough pinion bearing separation. And arguably that design is not really needed for most Jeeps. It's built that way to control deflection during extremely high torque loads like towing. Sure a lifted Jeep with big tires sees some torque loading but nothing like that. Ultimately the 14-bolt is stronger because of much more notable reasons than the extra pinion bearing. All of it's parts are freaking big and made with a lot of steel.

I'm sorry, I have to chime in when I read this kind of post. First, show me a 14 bolt with 1.69" full floating shafts. I won't be holding my breath. Second, the pinion support bearing in 14 bolts is one of their biggest selling points IMO and I don't even care for 14 bolts. It does a great job of limiting gear deflection when kills gears. In high HP big tire applications this is crucial and why you see the 14 bolt starting to be even more popular in front applications because guys around my neck of the woods are eating R&Ps for breakfast in their D60s.

All that being said, I run a HP60 front and LP60 rear. My 60 rear has 3.5" 3/8" wall diameter axle tubes, factory dual piston disc brakes, Dana 70 spindles so you can run 35 spline 1.5" shafts with no fuss, and a completely smooth high clearance bottom. Here's a picture of the bottom.



This is all factory OEM and pulled from a junkyard. Show me a 14 bolt like that. If I ever eat a R&P which I'm sure I will I'll be upgrading to the Jana 76 kit which allows me to run 10.5" Dana 70 gears for ultimate strength.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...421&highlight=
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Old 02-28-2011, 11:46 AM
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Headhoncho Headhoncho is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockjeep44
All that being said, I run a HP60 front and LP60 rear. My 60 rear has 3.5" 3/8" wall diameter axle tubes, factory dual piston disc brakes, Dana 70 spindles so you can run 35 spline 1.5" shafts with no fuss, and a completely smooth high clearance bottom. Here's a picture of the bottom.

This is all factory OEM and pulled from a junkyard. Show me a 14 bolt like that. If I ever eat a R&P which I'm sure I will I'll be upgrading to the Jana 76 kit which allows me to run 10.5" Dana 70 gears for ultimate strength.

What vehicle do you find these in? Very curious.


JR
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Old 02-28-2011, 12:56 PM
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I wasn't saying that the pinion bearing is the only thing that makes it stronger. I was just pointing out something that was not mentioned already. It is obviously stronger for many reasons. It is also alot cheaper. There is no right answer to this question. If there was we would all be running the same axle and I wouldn't see posts just like this all over the internet. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. If money was no object I would have a trussed 60 in the back with 1.5 alloy shafts but my 14 bolt was alot cheaper than that. You can definately build a 60 as strong as you want it.

As always, money is my only obstacle.
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1985 GW: stock springs, SOA/SF, 3 inch body lift, d60 w/spool, 14ff w/detroit, 4.56 gears, 360/465/205 w/twin sticks and 40's.

I really am going to get this thing done soon so I can drive it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Headhoncho
What vehicle do you find these in? Very curious.


JR

Ford full size vans - E350 I believe. It's basically a D60 center section and D70 tubes out.
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