Stereo Upgrades for '88 Grand Wagoneer

[JohnIL]

I'm looking for some stereo advice. 89Grand: if you've got time I'd especially like to hear your analysis of my ideas. Ok, here's the scenario… I bought my ’88 Grand Wagoneer with the factory AM/FM/Tape deck (broken) and the original Jensen 5.25” speakers (deteriorated and blown). In order to get the Jeep’s audio back on its feet (or wheels), I bought a new Blaupunkt Laguna CD35 AM/FM/CD deck and two pairs of Pioneer TS-G1341R 2-way 5.25" speakers.

Blaupunkt Laguna CD35:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-EC3oAuL...00&I=023LAGUNA

Pioneer TS-G1341R:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-EC3oAuL...0&I=130TSG1341

I have the new deck and all four speakers installed, but I'm not very happy with the sound. I like the deck very much and the speakers are plenty loud, but they have terrible bass response. I'm not an audiophile, by any means, but I listen to a wide range of music and I like it to sound good (ie real, natural, correct). What I have right now is respectable highs and very muddy lows.

In addition to wanting to improve the sound inside the wagon, I'd like to have a set of "removable" speakers for use when the wagon is parked (camping, drive-in's, etc.) So, here's what I have in mind:

1. Add 300 Hz bass-blockers to the cheap Pioneer 5.25" speakers that I have now to clean out the bass mud.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-HCKGEUdfW3g/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=760&I=127BB300A2&search=bass+blocke r

2. Add a pair of MTX TS82 8" full-range 2-way truck boxes in the cargo area. I'd install the truck boxes with long cables so they can be pulled out to the tailgate, roof, etc.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-J6PBhbX...3050&I=236TS82

3. Drive the truck boxes with a relatively inexpensive 2-way AMP like a Profile AP600:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-J6PBhbX...120&I=489AP600

Now for the questions:

Question 1: Will the 300Hz bass-blockers do any good or should I just throw the Pioneers in the trash and start over?

Question 2: Will I get decent sound out of the MTX boxes or am I thinking in the wrong direction?

Question 3: Do the MTX boxes have a built-in cross-over to split the signal into low (for the woofers) and high (for the tweeters)? If not, would it do any good to rewire the speakers in the boxes to take advantage of the amp's built-in cross-over?

Question 4: The Jeep is not a daily-driver. So, I can't spend a fortune on the stereo. Does this seem like a reasonable plan or am I just throwing good money after bad?

I'd appriciate any advice I can get. Thanks.

John

[89grand]

Well let's see.

Considering what you already have here's what I'd do with it. I'd run a decent 4 channel amp of around 50 watts x 4, one with a built in crossover and power the front 5.25's with the front channnels and set the crossover somewhere in the area of 100hz. Then I'd run the rear channels with no crossover to the MTX boxes. I's ditch the rear 5.25's altogether. You won't really need them especially with the 2 way MTX boxes back there.

Bass blockers suck number one, and 300hz is too high anyway. A 5.25 can play bass a lot lower than 300hz, maybe down to around 80hz before the excursion becomes too much for them. An amplifier will make a huge difference even on the front 5.25's as most decks only put out about 15 watts per channel regardless of what it says on the front panel.

I've never heard those exact MTX boxes before, but the bass should be a big improvement over the 5.25 Pioneers. They won't have the bass response of say the 2 JL Audio 10 subs that I run, but will be better than a 5.25.

Oh yeah, and those MTX speakers will have their own internal crossover.

Now this is a budget system so it will not sound as good as a say a system with a dedicated sub, but it all depends on what you want and how much you want to spend. Profile amps are mediocre amplifiers so if one is listed as 100 watts per channel it's probably closer to 50 watts actually. Keep that in mind when selecting a 4 channel model.

If you are will to spend more, let me know what your budget it and we'll see if I can up with a better setup that you can swing. That said, the system you are proposing with be OK, but you could do better for a little more money.

[JohnIL]

Steve,
Thanks for the input. I especially appreciate the advice on springing for a 4 channel amp instead of bass blockers. My only concern about amping the front 5.25's is that their RMS range is only up to 25W. Wouldn't any amp strong enough to drive the rear boxes over power the Pioneers?

John

[will e]

I run 4 alpine speakers and a Jensen Sub. The speakers are driven by a 4 channel Alpine Amp. Two speakers in the door and two 6X9 in small 'walmart' boxes. The Jensen sub is driven by a kenwood amp.

I used to use the kenwood to drive the two 6x9 alpine and I can tell you there is a big difference between the kenwood and alpine amps.

Like you, I have lots of wire going to the rear speakers so I can just set the boxes on top of the roof. I love this setup.

[89grand]

No, the problem with over powering speakers like your Pioneers is when there is no crossover to remove the low bass notes, with a crossover set at 100hz or so, the speakers can probably handle 3 times the power. I've seen more speakers ruined from under powered distortion than over powering.

Besides, high amplifier power is like having a 1000hp engine, you can still drive it to the store all you want, it's when you floor it that things start to get out of hand.

Case in point, I have a MB Quart 5.25 midbass/Focal tweeter set up in my front doors and I'm powering them with a Precison Power A600.2, that amp is an honest 174 watts per channel (verified by a test I saw of this model in Car Stereo and Electronics magazine years ago). I have a 24db per octave crossover set at 100hz and these speakers are fine. I've heard some suspension noise coming from the MB Quarts a few times when I was driving them real hard so I just turned the volume down a little. That amp has so much balls that it doesn't distort until it's real loud so I just have to be sensible with it, but some solid 50 or 75 watt amp in your case would be fine.

[JohnIL]

Steve, thanks again. Do you think this amp would do the trick assuming that it's only worth about 40 watts (based upon your previous opbservation on Profile amps)?

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-YFPQvZJ...20&I=489HA1040

I hate to low-ball this project, but I need to spend the money on an engine rebuild more than the stereo at the moment. For now, my wife still likes me.

John

[89grand]

Yeah, that's probably your best bet for the money.

Check this out before you buy that from Crutchfield.

Profile Amp

[ April 06, 2006, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: 89grand ]

[JohnIL]

Nice. Now, if I could just find someone selling the MTX boxes cheap! Thanks again.

John

[brent]

Just bought top-of-the-line Kenwood 5.25's and after 2 days I put them back in the box and called the stereo place to upgrade.
Even as a supplement to 6X9's, I've NEVER heard 5.25's that could handle highs or lows without flat out off-key distortion and unlistenable sound.
Of course, that's a subjective opinion.
Heck, I'm not even a music/sound snob. I love a good song on a mono AM radio speaker if the happiness is there.
BUT I've never heard a 5.25 I liked...
Just bought Tad's 6X9 doors mounts for speakers and I'm about to fill those brackets up!
Brent

[JohnIL]

I was out changing the oil in the wagon and thought I'd mess with the stereo a little more. On a lark, I cranked the bass way down just to see how the Pioneer 5.25's would sound as mid/high only speakers. To my surprise, the bass distortion went away and the bass response actually improved! Now I know Steve was right about using a cross-over to cut the really low frequencies out of the 5.25's. I see an amp and a couple of boxes in my future... Thanks again for all of the advice. Keep it comin'!

John

[brent]

JohnIL: I revise my opinion. If you set them up as a mid/high (w/crossover) AND a normal 6X9 or other standard as the main--great. I don't have the luxury right now.
My question is, how do lock in the 5.25's at that perfect pitch w/out altering main sound? Alternate controls?
Curious and doing stero upgrade myself,
Brent

[89grand]

Well you have to understand what a 5.25 speaker is typically capable of, I say typically because a few years back a guy won the IASCA world championship with a Dodge Intrepid using Focal 5.25" subwoofers custom installed in the dash board. Yes, I said 5.25" subwoofers, but that's not a typical 5.25" speaker. Keep in mind that winning the IASCA world championship is like winning the NHRA championship, only the best in the world compete in IASCA, it's the top dog of the car audio world.

A speaker is basically a piston and even though they are measured soley by their diameter (so you can tell what speaker fits where), that in it's self means nothing because bass response is simply a matter of being able to move air, so diameter x stroke (Xmax in speaker terminology) equals the amount of air it can move. Unlike a car motor that is measure in bore x stroke, speakers are measured simply by the diameter (bore), but their stroke is very important.

Large diameter woofers are more efficient at creating bass than a 5.25 because they are large in diameter and therefore do not need to have a lot of stroke (Xmax) to produce deep bass, but large diameter woofers that have a lot of stroke capability are very loud when driven with a powerful enough amplifier. An 8" woofer has roughly half the surface area of a 12" woofer therefore it would take 2 8" woofers to produce the same level of bass as 1 12" assuming both speakers had the same stroke ability (Xmax). If a certain 8" subwoofer had twice the Xmax as a 12" subwoofer, then they would both produce the same sound pressure level of bass when driven to their limits. Along those same lines, a 12" woofer with twice the Xmax as an 8" woofer would be 4 times as loud.

Note: When I say twice as loud I mean 3dB louder which actually is twice as loud, but the way the human ear works, 10dB is perceived as twice as loud.

In other words, a 5.25" speaker can produce even the lowest of bass notes just like a 10" subwoofer, but in order for the 5.25" speaker to play those low bass notes at a level that's considered loud would require the speaker to have rediculous excursion capabilities(Xmax)and the power handling to move that far. Most if not all 5.25" coaxial speakers and even seperates are not made like that and for good reason. If you want deep loud bass get an 8" or larger subwoofer and leave the 5.25's to play from 80-100hz on up.

To answer the question on getting 5.25" or any other size speakers to sound good is not an easy question to answer, there are a lot of variables. The quality of the speaker its self, the quality of the install, the other components in the signal chain (CD player, amps, whatever), the quality of the music source (the CD it's self) and the accoustics of the vehicle. Most people don't think about that last one.

Assuming high quality speakers, a good install, good equipment in the signal chain and using the speakers in their intended frequency range, they should sound good. If you want deep and loud bass response, use a subwoofer. Don't expect a 4", 5.25", 6.5" or even a 6x9 to do that very well. Let the subwoofer play the deep bass notes, up to say 80-100hz, and let the 5.25 or whatever play from 80-100hz and above. If subwoofers are not part of your plan, then yeah, 6x9's will give the loudest bass response of all the normal size 2 or 3 way speakers.

Sorry about the long ramble, I've probably bored everyone that read this to sleep. Hope this helped though.

[89grand]

Oh yeah, I fogot to mention this, for maximum sound quality, leave the tone controls for bass and treble basically flat, at or near zero. If at that level you have either no bass or treble, something else is wrong. One of the leading causes of a stereo system sounding like sheeit is uneven frequency response. All frequencies in the audio spectrum, from around 20hz to 20,000hz should be roughly the same level. Turning up the bass control only boosts frequencies in the range of the bass control which is typically 100hz, boosting that leads to muddy bass, uneven frequecy response and over driving of small speakers.

[ April 07, 2006, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: 89grand ]

[Louiseven]

Very cool advice 89Grand, It does my heart good to hear someone reccomend leaving the tone controls flat. As a music professional I spend most of my time making and recording music. Just to hear somebody hit that loudness or bass boost switch yuck. As a Music producer and sometimes engineer good advice. Being this is budget advice this might be moot however the best sound comes from using seperates with crossovers. Quality built amps with true wattage specs and properly tuned crossovers you can get away with just one sub and have an amazing natural listening experience. Also to note mud,and woofy-ness begins in the 200 to 350 HZ spectrum knowing how much of these frequencies to cut will also give you a more clear and balanced sound. To note also mind your polarity with interconnects and speaker wire. All it takes is one wire connected backwards to introduce un-wanted phase.

[JohnIL]

Brent,
When I said that "I cranked the bass way down", I was cheating because right now, I only have the 5.25's installed. So, I just turned the bass tone level down on my deck. If I had other components installed, this would have altered the main sound, as you said. When I install the amp and truck boxes, I plan to accomplish the same thing by using the amps built-in cross-over to block the bass frequencies to the 5.25's. If you want to control the tone to just the 5.25's, I would thingk you'd have to install multiple equalizers, one for each set (or type) of speakers. Maybe the other guys have a better solution for you.

John

[JohnIL]

Steve,
I just thought of another question. You mentioned yesterday that the MTX boxes would have a built-in cross-over to split the signal to the woofers and tweeters. So, does that mean that I should disable the amps cross-over for those channels and send the whole frequency range to the boxes? Thanks.

John

[JohnIL]

Steve,
Nevermind that last question. You already answered it in your original reply. I just didn't read close enough. You said that I should run the rear channels of the amp with no cross-over. Thanks.

John

[will e]

Wow Steve, shouldn't you be out pulling your rocker covers? [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am going to try to listen to mine in 'flat' mode for a while.

I have a sub, 2 6x9 and 2 5 1/4 and am pretty happy with the sound.

[ April 07, 2006, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: will e ]

[Rande]

Well, you knowledgeable guys may cringe but I went to a salvage yard and pulled the Infinity speakers from a Chryco minivan for use in my old Mustang.

What I got were two 6x9 woofers and a couple seperate 2" tweeters (I'm beginning to forget now but I paid about $20-25 for them). The 6x9s have an amp built into them (so you need a relay to supply 12v to them). I noticed the mid-range lacked due to my not using the front speakers from the Infinity system (they would have needed the underdash amp and I didn't want to try to remove it).

Not wanting to cut my car up (there is zero room up front in a '66 Mustang for speakers), I bought some 4" coaxials and installed them in the original 4x10 opening in the dash. The car sounds great to me and my friends and I am happy with it and not having to cut the car to fit speakers. The bass response is great, way better than I thought 6x9s could do. The front 4" speakers do distort due the bass at loud levels (goes away if I reduce the bass) so I figure I need to install some bass blockers on them. I was originally thinking I would need a sub but I was wrong. There is another thread about speakers here where I give more info about these speakers.

If you are working on a shoestring budget as I was, this may be a viable alternative for many. I have an inexpensive JVC head unit that works fine for what I need. The music is loud, clean and sounds good to this car nut. As mentioned earlier, I find my tone control settings are near flat and I only use the loudness for bass parts I especially like. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ April 07, 2006, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Rande ]