360 Rebuild lots of Pics/Questions

[bfroe]

This will be my first rebuild and I have a lot of questions. It's got about 250k on it and the previous owner said it was rebuilt once before. I have a basic plan made and would like comments etc about whatever. I was planning on rebuilding it anyway but will have to now as the main and camshaft bearings seized. Damage to the rest of valvetrain is unknown ATM. I’m thinking of getting a FSM to help.
Anybody in the VENTURA, CA area with knowledge of good machine shops would be sweet.

Heads:
The gasket material is mostly off as the pic shows, but I'm not sure if its enough for a good reading of warpage. One of the heads checked out with the barely and the other one didn't as far as I can tell. I haven't pulled the valves and checked them but I will soon.
I currently plan to see about having them replaned and cleaned at a machine shop if the valves check out to eliminate any concern.


Intake Manifold:
Covered in crap but it doesn't look too bad. I found a loose plug that dropped from it somewhere, gotta find out where it goes .
I'm thinking get it cleaned at a shop like the heads? Fluxed?


Block:
Can't really say much, not much ridge at all on the cylinders, in fact I could see some marks from where it was last honed. Didn't need a ridge reamer either, just used some chem-dip to clean the carbon/rust etc off the ridge and they came out no problem. I did loan a ridge reamer from autozone; it had dull blades and was a POS, it scratched the cylinder I used it on. IMO don't loan these out because autozone doesn't replace the blades and after all the use they get pretty worn and useless.
With the fact that the pistons came out so easily in mind, I hope I might not have to have the block bored out.
I talked to a machine shop employee and he quoted 229 to have for cleaning, flux check, and having the having the crank and pistons hung along with cam bearings. He said he would get me a good deal on quality parts too. I don't know if that includes regrounding the crank and polishing it or planing the block. If it sounds like a good idea I will pursue it further.



Cam/Valves:
Bearings shot, cam looks OK but I haven't checked dimensions yet. Lifters are not pitted but are concave a little, will replace them. I bent a few of the rocker arm bridges while removing them, don't know what to do with that. I cleaned all the rocker arms but some got a little rusty, how should I get rid of it? I haven’t pulled the valves/spring assemblies yet but I will soon and make sure its up to specs.
Also, what is the replacement procedure for the cam bearings and cam itself? I was thinking just buy the new cam and have the bearings installed and throw the new cam in or is that not kosher? I heard of making sure the angle is right, what is that about?
Here is a pic of a bent bridge:


Crank/Rods/Pistons:
Main bearings seized on it and one of the rod bearings too. I took the freeplay and it was was in spec, a little over .05" I think. I'm thinking have it reground/polished and checked out, but I don't really know all my options so any suggestions are welcome.
The rods are original, I checked a couple and the freeplay was as follows:
1,2-.017"
3,4-.017"
5,6-.0175"
7,8-.020"
I checked it by putting stacking the caps in the journals and using a feeler gauge as illustrated in the following photo:

Is this kosher for measuring?

I'm thinking have the shop check the rods out when I bring the block in.
Pistons seem to be in good shape, but I can't really tell. I'm thinking the shop will probably check them out if I have them install them.

Front Cover:
Looks like the oil pump housing is scored. I also nicked the filter/pressure relief housing when I was removing the gasket. I will get a new front cover. Suggestions would be nice as to where to get it from. I was thinking BJ's because it comes with a plate thing and gears and gaskets. Although I would probably get gaskets with a rebuild kit. Anyway its still up in the air.


Sensors:
The ones that switch vacuum depending upon heat are the ones I can't seem to find. They are all probably fine but I want to replace them anyway. Gonna replace the oil pressure sensor and thermostat and housing.

Carb:
Just rebuilt it. Will readjust it before running engine I think.

So right now I am thinking buy as many parts as I can from the machine shop if they really are cheaper and get a gasket set for the engine too. Sound good?

Also, what exactly should I have the machine shop do that I can’t do myself? Anything about stuff like a line bore, planning block and heads and regrounding/polishing crank and anything for camshaft? I'm probably gonna order the boxwrench video on rebuilding just to get a good idea.

How/should I clean the engine bay/suspension components?

On a side note, the front sway bar I think is busted from the frame. I was just gonna have a mobile welder come out and fix it up while the engine is out. I don’t know if it would be cheaper to drive it in though, or would it be possible to replace the whole part with a bolt-on bracket/plate?



I know this is a lot to ask at once but really, any little thing you have to offer helps. Thanks!

[Gas Pumper]

Subscribed. I was just scouring the internet today on an AMC rebuild without much luck. I planned on getting a builder 360 to build while the one I have is dying, but it's starting to look like I'll be pulling the one I have instead. Please keep us informed on part numbers and $$$. I will follow this with great interest. Good luck!

[arktinkerer]

I'm no expert so take this with a bag of salt...

The timing cover looks like it could be flattened with a plate of glass and fine sandpaper. If you don't want it send it my way! Make sure you check into the minor cleanup of the oil passages as this greatly helps oil flow.

I checked my rod ends after bolting them together. Don't know how much difference it makes but it will make some difference.

.05" play anywhere is a LOT in terms of pistons/rods/bearings. Did you miss a decimal place?

ArkTinkerer

[dlowrance]

A few points....

TSM TSM TSM...get the tech service manual for your rig...that thing has saved my bacon more times than I can count.

If I was as deep as you are I'm dumping the 2v cast intake and getting a 4v aluminum...I'm as of late on the Ristow bandwagon and going with the Holley carb...edelbrock intake is fine IMHO.

others will comment on the machine work based on locale, but the price quoted doesn't sound unreasonable to me either...

[joe]

Originally Posted by dlowrance

A few points....

TSM TSM TSM...get the tech service manual for your rig...that thing has saved my bacon more times than I can count.

..

Agreed. Doing an engine rebuild w/o it is just setting yourself up for an expensive failure. Get a supply of plasti-gauge for bearing clearance. Get some assembly lube too. When you get the block hot tanked and honed have them press in the new cam bearings.

[tgreese]

With the bores, the main concern is excessive taper. If there is no ridge, then it's possible that the bores are straight and you can put it back together with the same pistons. It's also possible that the previous rebuilder reused the pistons too, and you could have significant taper. You'll have to measure.

The main problem with tapered bores is that the rings fatigue from the constant expansion ans contraction, and they consequently don't last as long as they would in a straight block. That may be ok, depending on what you plan to use this vehicle for. You'll need to check the ring grooves for wear too, if you want to reuse the pistons.

The shop can hot tank the intake manifold for a nominal fee. No need to magnaflux it.

You need the TSM. This book will also be helpful http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Builder...6534024&sr=8-1

[bfroe]

Awesome, thanks for the input.
I will buy the FSM this week, same as TSM right? Unless I can get a new manifold and carb for cheap I'll stick with the one I have.


"The shop can hot tank the intake manifold for a nominal fee. No need to magnaflux it.
Can do. Drilled the rivets off today, will tap it if I decide not to put in a mod for rear journal lubrication."

"With the bores, the main concern is excessive taper."
I will do preliminary measurements myself and have the shop check it out too. He said it would be included in the $229.

"When you get the block hot tanked and honed have them press in the new cam bearings"
Ok. Should I have them line bore it too?

"Make sure you check into the minor cleanup of the oil passages as this greatly helps oil flow."
Can do, should I remove the plugs before the shop work?

Should have it in the shop when I get the dough, early July.
Thanks!

[tgreese]

Yes, FSM (factory service manual, generic name) is the same as TSM (technical service manual, what Jeep calls the FSM).

If the shop is going to tank the block, you want to remove all the plugs. Even if the block comes back clean, you'll want to clean it yourself. You can buy a set of rifle bore brushes to clean the oil galleries. You want all grit and chips from the machining and any remaining crud to be completely gone. Clean parts and a clean work area will help insure a good result.

[bfroe]

Update:

Haven't done much lately, been busy. Cleaned intake more, bought TSM on a disk for 25$ on ebay. I've been spending a lot of time looking at the block and diagrams and I have a good feel for the oil circulation system now. Gonna look into moding to allow better rear journal circulation. Looks like carbon almost completely choked off my EGR, no wonder why it was designated Gross Polluter... Should have it in shop in two weeks.

BTW the bore brush is a great idea, the cylindrical brushes I bought don't hold up, but the bore cleaner does, and it's extendable.

[azpackrat]

This is a very good place to address many of your oiling questions and shop for aftermarket upgrades.

http://www.bulltear.com/index.php

[bfroe]

Update:
Brought heads in to the shop, really nice place. Called me the same day and said I would need all 8 exhaust valves and all the springs replaced. He said he gets his valves from a good source and they will be 8-10 bucks per, springs ~2.50 each. Labor is 229 including tanking, fluxing, planing, etc to make it ready to bolt on. Altogether it shouldn't be over 350 which seems pretty good to me.

Gonna get a full gasket set so he can get the valve stem gaskets on with the valve job. FelPro most likely.

I also tried diagnosing why she wonders. Steering linkage looks like it's not too bad but the steering damper was really soft (almost no resistance when pushed in) and the bracket that goes between the axle and u-bolt tie plate was really loose because the nuts on the u-bolts were really loose. Tightened them to specs and the bracket won't budge now. All the other u-bolt nuts were in spec. Hopefully once I get a new steering damper it will help.
I also noticed that the u-joint in the steering column right after it leaves the firewall has some freeplay in it. Will consult TSM to see what to do.

Next paycheck I will bring the block in.
Thanks!

[Mavawreck]

Dang, that seems like a great price to have the heads redone, any more info on what all they are doing for 350? I want to have mine rebuilt,thats in my bracket.

Andrew

[vintagetrks]

Originally Posted by dlowrance

A few points....

TSM TSM TSM...get the tech service manual for your rig...that thing has saved my bacon more times than I can count.

If I was as deep as you are I'm dumping the 2v cast intake and getting a 4v aluminum...I'm as of late on the Ristow bandwagon and going with the Holley carb...edelbrock intake is fine IMHO.

others will comment on the machine work based on locale, but the price quoted doesn't sound unreasonable to me either...

X2 on the aluminum intake. I'm not real fond of the Holley carbs but with Ristow and a couple others encouragement I will be rebuilding mine to put back on my aluminum edelbrock intake.

[bfroe]

Originally Posted by Mavawreck

Dang, that seems like a great price to have the heads redone, any more info on what all they are doing for 350? I want to have mine rebuilt,thats in my bracket.

Andrew

Well he does 229 labor + 8-10 bucks a valve and 2.50 a spring. I'm gonna provide the valve stem gaskets but they are cheap anyway. I only needed the 8 exhaust valves serviced, the intakes were OK so I saved some ($80) dough there. So depending upon the shape of your heads it could actually be up to 430 if you needed all the valves and springs replaced. But that would be the worst case scenario. This price is only good for this Fain's Automotive Shop in Ventura CA, he has connections where he gets his valves (that's what he says at least). Dunno what more I can say... hope this helps.

[jimbos83j10]

Wow. From what I've been told 350 is a great price. Are they honing the cylinders also?? Ive had a few unofficial quotes of over 500 just to clean and hone the block. I'll be following your thread.

[bfroe]

That was a valve job I was talking about but he hones, bores, tanks, fluxes etc and lays the pistons and crank and cam bearings in for 230 ish. I got the heads back, cost a little more because he drilled out a couple exhaust bolts that broke off. Painted the heads and seems that he did a nice job. Will take in the block before long.

I have been cleaning a lot of parts, got the pan, fan, valve covers etc fairly clean with some degreaser and elbow grease. Engine bay looking pretty good too.

So the plugs in the intake for the egr are not budging, I don't wanna have to pay to have them removed, so what do you all think I should do? For now I will look for a used 4bbl and carb.

I probably will be making a trip out to Scotty's in Fontana before long for a rear end/front cover depending upon their prices.

[bfroe]

UPDATE:
Picked up a s*** motor and 4bbl intake and carb. Think I can use the front cover, will check clearances etc. Brought block into shop.

Only problem with the carb and intake (both for 100 used) is that it is non-egr... I'm thinking I will try and pass it without for now. It's so Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley light too, Edelbrock and Holly carb (needs rebuild) also came with a K&N reusable filter which I think MSRP is 40 for. Not too shabby if I can actually get it to pass california smog testing with it in there.

[bfroe]

Got the block bored .020 and put the crank/rods in. I also threw the cam in. Plastigauged rod/crank and they were perfect at about .0020 .

I have a problem though: the cam and crank have grooves where there should be notches for the timing gears to slide on. The cam seems to be a sealed power and the crank was reground exchange. I really don't know what happened. Do 89 360s have this setup? Just asking because I think the guy at the shop might have ordered the wrong stuff.

Thanks!

[Tigger4X]

Originally Posted by bfroe

Well he does 229 labor + 8-10 bucks a valve and 2.50 a spring. I'm gonna provide the valve stem gaskets but they are cheap anyway. I only needed the 8 exhaust valves serviced, the intakes were OK so I saved some ($80) dough there. So depending upon the shape of your heads it could actually be up to 430 if you needed all the valves and springs replaced. But that would be the worst case scenario. This price is only good for this Fain's Automotive Shop in Ventura CA, he has connections where he gets his valves (that's what he says at least). Dunno what more I can say... hope this helps.

As soon as I read you were in Ventura Fain's was gonna be my best suggestion. Thay have a great reputation and I'm glad they are taking care of you. Hope it all works out well for ya!

[Tigger4X]

Originally Posted by bfroe

UPDATE:
Picked up a s*** motor and 4bbl intake and carb. Think I can use the front cover, will check clearances etc. Brought block into shop.

Only problem with the carb and intake (both for 100 used) is that it is non-egr... I'm thinking I will try and pass it without for now. It's so Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley light too, Edelbrock and Holly carb (needs rebuild) also came with a K&N reusable filter which I think MSRP is 40 for. Not too shabby if I can actually get it to pass california smog testing with it in there.

A K&N air filter wont fail you when its inside a stock air filter housing. When they see an open element they will because it means you dont have all of the other smog crap installed/working and you fail straight outta the gate for the "visual" inspection portion and you wont pass evenif you blew clean across the board. Use your FSM/TSM and make sure its all there before you go in. I live in Camarillo so if you need anything drop me a PM. I know a great smog guy too if you dont have one yet.