Starter Problem?

[krmusher]

1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 V-8 auto, 2bbl carb, no computer

Starter Problem: has been present at least 3 years, but didn’t drive the car about 1.5 years. Current mileage: about to turn 160,000, runs well, passes emssions, gets 14 mpg…

1. Intermittant: can start fairly normally, could be because it can start very easily and fast under the right conditions.

2. When acting up:
A. Loud clicking, like typical low battery when starting, however this will still start unless you flood it and wear the battery down. (very rare)
B. OEM dash voltmeter drops way into the red near 8 volts. When normal drops to the red or into the red starting zone as indicated on the gauge.
C. Might hear a momentary binding when acting up, but can also sound very smooth.
D. Sometimes the engine doesn’t shut off when the key is turned off and even removed. Lock shop says this has nothing to do with starter problem. The “ignition switch”
is at the bottom of the steering column, not near the key, see below#3B.
E. When the car has sat a few days it can have a harder time as the battery voltage seems lower. Regular running cures this, higher voltage helps, battery replaced 2x see #3J.

3. Repair actions taken:
A.Replaced with Checker brand rebuilt starters 3 times. None of the starters stopped working, I just took them back. At least one looked worn on the worm gear.
Switched to Autozone rebuilt starter, same result, still on car. All of this in less than 15k-20k miles. (Fairly modern gear reduction starter, 2 bolt mount, no shims)
B. Ignition switch at bottom of steering column replaced 5-10-07, 154,706m.
C. Neutral safety switch replaced 5-18-07
D. Recently added a #2 awg ground cable from battery – to a starter mounting bolt. No effect.
E. Previously replaced main ground from battery-- to block which is on the head of a bolt that goes through the aluminum? AC compressor frame before going into the block.
No effect.
F. Previously had replaced the battery + lead to the solenoid on the starter with #2 awg cable. No effect
G. Previously ran extra grounds between engine and body. No effect.
H. Replaced starter relay on fender. This controls? The starter solenoid on the starter and various other circuits. No effect.
I. Replaced heavy wire from starter relay to starter solenoid. No effect.
J. Battery replaced 2 times, load tests good, as does voltage. Walmart battery, wouldn/t do again.

I have many good used parts. What would anyone suggest?
krmusher

[Chevelleguy]

I replaced all my battery cables with custom made 1/0 welding cable. No more starting problems.

In order to figure the problem with yours, you need to be able to check components with a voltmeter while the problem is occurring. Check voltage at the starter and work backwards to the battery until you find the voltage drop.

P.S. Welcome to the forum. We can help. There are many knowledgeable people here.

[ChuckWag]

Hey Kermusher,

Welcome to a good bunch of folks. I'm going through the identical process on mine, and will be very interested in the responses. I'm pretty sure I've got mine narrowed down to the charging side, which doesn't make sense to me, but that's about all I've got left to replace!

Chuckwag

[krmusher]

Check this out:
http://www.onlinetechhelp.com/support/home.htm

The "Low Volt Meter Reading" trouble shooting trail can lead to some tests which I think can be charge side problems as you mention. I haven't been able to do this yet.

I 've just decided to really address this as its quite irritating and gives passengers the creeps. Of course today it started perfectly...

You can probably tell that I've tried all of the standard stuff the average DIY or even mechanic would do and it hasn't solved it.

My first step at getting serious was to do the write up to start the thread, as I had to gather the details going back at least 3 years.
I'm hoping for more expert advice based on either: vehicle specific info, thus this forum or automotive electrical expertise. There are a few shops that advertise as "auto electric" specialists.

I thought my #2 cable replacements were pretty hot, but Chevelleguy has me beat with the 1/0 welding. Mine are regular wire. I used screw together "Marine" lugs as I have other mods running offthe battery. The web site above says this is a no-no and to use crimped lugs only...

An intermittant problem to me is the worst.
All comments welcome.

[Chevelleguy]

This may not be your problem but, I once bought a Ford starter at Autozone that was bad out of the box. I took it back and they test the next one, and the next one, and the next one. All three that they had on the shelf were bad! That was 20 years ago, but every shop I have ever worked at (about 15 in my career) stays far away from Autozone's starters and alternators. Just a heads up.

[BGW]

Hey! Welcome! I'm in Boulder, so if I can ever lend you a hand, let me know!

I'm a little bit confused. When you crank the engine, it turns over very slowly? Does it sound like the starter is straining?

[krmusher]

Hi BGW! Remember when Colorado use to crawl with GWs? Now they're rare. Last week a stranger complimented me on having a "classic car" LOL Anyway to your questions,

Much of the time it starts fairly normally. I say fairly because it usually starts so fast their isn't much cranking to hear. Other times when warm it can do some cranking and sound just fine.

BUT on a "bad" day it does crank slow, it clicks as if low voltage, then kind of breaks loose and starts anyway.
Of course a "good" and "bad" day can happen on the same day.

My initial writeup has as much detail as I could muster so somebody more insightful then me can give a hint.
BTW I'm envious of your 94k miles. I bought mine with about 90k miles in 1997 while living in the mountains. It got 8-9 mpg then which was quite typical for those in the mtns. Now I get 14 -15 mpg on my way to 18-20 which is a whole different story if it would just start like it should.

Chevelleguy: notice I switched from Checker (3 starters) to Autozone (1).
A local shop I knew wouldn't use Checker but would use Autozone. Trouble is none of this info is conclusive...
BTW I have no trouble with critiquing anything I've done since it hasn't worked.
KRMusher

[BGW]

Waaaaait a minute...

Were you driving on Arapahoe on Friday evening? I might have seen you- is your Wagoneer maroon or reddish?

Two random thoughts I had-
What is your timing set at? Has it always lived in Colorado?

Also, it is very far fetched, but one of the vacuum-actuated air flaps in the air cleaner could stick closed sometimes, making it harder for the engine to get air and to turn over. The throttle solenoid could cause the same thing. Are you stepping on the skinny pedal when it is trying to crank, or do you lay off it?

-Peter

[Billygoat]

With the clicking I think it is a connection problem, however with everythign you replaced you would have addressed it.
I would address the starting issues first and see if the run on continues.

If it were my truck here is what I would do.
1. Wire a momanraty switch from the battery to the "S" terminal on the solinoid, this is a low voltage circuit so nothing big needed. Then when it acts up with the key, leave the key in run position and hit the new starter switch, or just use the new one, if it works then the issues is key to solinoid.
2. If the issues continue, get a tractor starter switch that would be in place of the solinoid - basically a 75-100 amp rated momantary switch.
Start with it, if it works all the time then you have a solinoid issue. You could also achive this effect with a jumper wire from 1 side of the solinoid to the other, but it sparks and is just not ideal, but doable.

Now with the run on I almost wonder if you don't have a dead short someplace that draws current and makes it click and causes the run on, and as the wire moves around it makes contact and not, so sometimes it has problems and sometimes not.

[scantar]

Hey Lafayette, Welcome from Denver!

I would check all the grounds in the starting and charging circuits if you haven't already done so. Loosen them, wire brush them clean, tighten them or replace them altogether. It's amazing how easily our electrics go south when there's a dirty ground.

Steve

[krmusher]

Hey BGW ! I drive on Arapahoe frequently but not last friday night and my GW is that lovely Navy Blue! It's also an actual high altitude model. Don't know what the timing is set at but its fairly advanced.
I think the air flaps are OK. I start it as I saw on instructions on some Jeep site for carbs: when cold press the accelerator 1/2 to full down to set the choke based on my interpretation of temperature and maybe altitude. When warm I start to crank and grandually open the throttle to shorten crank time. If I open the throttle first it could fllood.
I've got by with this problem because it starts so dang easy due to other mods , tuning etc.

BillyGoat, thanks for writing, what do you mean by "run on"?
Also this model (1990) GW has a starter relay on the fender which controls the starter solenoid on the starter, (comes with the starter).
I like your ideas, thanks.

Scantar: since nothng has worked I may have to go over the same territory again, Thanks.

[coop923]

I was experiencing a similar problem before I tore my Cherokee apart. It's part of a big unfinished project at this point, but I will be watching this thread. Seems like I remember a hot positive cable after cranking (or clicking) to start. I figured I had a bad starter.

[Billygoat]

"Run On" is your problem of turning off your key and your engine not really caring that you did. That sounds like a short that is bypassing the switch. You said you replaced the switch but didn't say if that cured that issue.

[krmusher]

Ok problem NOT solved but more data to "chew" on!

A. BillyGoat: Wired another crank switch into the cab, off the starter relay that sends power to the starter solenoid.

Result: Clicking problem is the same as with the key.

Add'l Observation: Does not click if the engine is cold, clicks all the time when warm and hot. This is with good voltage readings in the dash gauge...

B. Inspection also shows that the 2 alternator belts are both worn. However, one is twice as worn as the other and clearly is sitting deeper in it's groove as a result. Have new belts and will get to this ASAP.

Also, my replaced OEM fuel gauge sender varies with voltage and RPM (and other things) could this be evidence of an unstable voltage output from the alternator while charging etc?

Just turned 160,000 miles and this engine really runs well.
BTW: the tech notes section shows run on issues with Jacobs Ignitions of which I have a Jacobs Omni-Pak on the GW.

Please send your tests and theories as the group efforts are really helpful even if the Jeep is still winning.

KRMusher

[Billygoat]

If you battery is at full charge then you have a conection problem.
Now the big question, is the clicking the starter or the solinoid?

When it clicks, be sure it is in park (auto) or neutral with brake set (stick)
Take a pliers and touch the 2 large post on the solinoid - you are bypasing it and sending power right to the starter - IT WILL SPARK!!!! make sure you have no flamable liquids like gas around (engine grunge is ok).
If will give me an idea of where to look depending on what happens. This is not a great way to start a vehical, but I have done it way more than I want to admit.

Do you have a pic of the solinoid and wiring, now that you say you have a jacobs system I wonder how it is wired? What is all on the bat side of the solinoid? I sounds like corrosion on a contact.
I don't rember if you said, do you have a heavy neg cable from the bat to the motor?

[krmusher]

Here's the 90 GW ignition schematic.

The Jacobs was too big a file to attach but it's simple.
It's triggered by a wire off the coil negative.
The coil secondary goes to ground thru a 40 meg ohm resistor as it's not used anymore, the jacobs is also the coil.
Jacobs coil secondary wire to distributor cap input. Suspect the Jacobs unit? Disconnect the Jacobs coil secondary and put back the OEM coil secondary, pull the fuse on the Jacobs and you're back to stock. Never failed yet.

Any opinion on the alternator belts?

I shorted the two largest bolts on the starter solinoid (left the small one alone) with a #8 wire, clamp on one end, ring on the other.
The ignition was on. The starter motor spun well but did not throw out to engage the flywheel, so the engine did not start. NO CLICKS.

There is a #2 cable from battery negative to block. (thru AC compressor frame bolt.)
Also #2 cable battery negative to starter mounting bolt.

What does this mean??

[Billygoat]

I was after a pic wondering if you had something else hooked to the bat side of the solinoid that could be stealing amps from the starter, if you are a basic stock setup then that should not be an issue.
I would have the alternator tested, uneaven belt wear should not effect the output, if 1 belt is loose it could squeal if it slips and the other does not, but as long as it is spinning output should be consistent.

Shorting the solinoid like that is just bypassing it so the starter should have enguaged the flywheel. That could be a bad bendix on the starter, or low voltage.

Here is a thought, if the alternator is going bad it could be shorting interally and pulling juice from the bat when you try to start, and I have seen them be temp sensative.
So either pull the alt and have it tested, or with then engine warm, make sure the bat is at full charge and unhook the alt. from the system (keep power going to the rest of the system) If the starter works without fail then we nailed it. (need a fingers crossed smiley)

[krmusher]

Is it safe to do the on vehicle alternator test by unpluging the 2 wire connector on the alternator?

[Billygoat]

If you pull all the plugs the alt will be fine, I don't rember if that will kill power to the truck or not.

[krmusher]

Reporting In:
Alternator Test: pulled plug on alternator when hot and started on battery: Still clicks

Also replaced alternator belts: dash gauge indicated slightly higher voltage as does the fuel gauge.

Topped cells in battery and charged to high voltage instead of having the alternator do it over time.

All slight improvements, I think the whole system has gained efficiency at a higher voltage but still clicks when hot.

NEXT??