building on a budget

[ChevyJoe]

total newb to ifsja so please move this if need be mods.

recently picked up a completely stock '77 wagoneer with the 360, th400, and quadratrac. also picked up tt's soa kit with the rear shackle flips and new brake lines from bj's offroad. high steer has been bought too.

i have a few questions about what i'll need to look out for when doing soa:

1. leaf springs - my stock springs are pretty flat. i have a good set of 56" chevy 3/4 ton rear springs that i was thinking about putting in the rear. this would allow me to put my rear springs up front (adding a couple leafs from the front pack) and increase my wb. other than lengthening drive shafts, is there any other problems i should look out for?

2. drive shafts - with soa, do i need to go to a cv joint on the rear driveshaft? will the front cv provide me with enough angle when flexing?

3. welding the rear d44 - i searched but couldn't find what i was looking for. is it ok to lock up the rear, front, or both when running the quadratrac?

this is a straight budget build (not half-assed) to get me into the hills with my buddies. if there's any opinions or something else you guys would recommend i'm all ears. thanks

[blazer3664]

The chevy springs MAY work in the rear, but they are ~ an inch shorter so I dont know for sure.

Spring lengths, second post here http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=66430

Your rear springs wont fit up front without some mods. They are a full 10 " longer.

My opinion, for what its worth, is SOA and SF it to see where you are at. That should net you 6-7" from where it sits now, flat springs or not.
Then use the chevy springs as add a leafs where needed. I prefer adding long leafs and getting rid of shorts if possible, helps with axle wrap. Maybe a cutting wheel on a grinder to zip the eyes off and add to the rear. Then the second leaf added to the front and cut where needed. If you can make them go all the way under the eyes its a good thing as long as there is no interference.

Best part is the cost should be minimal. New center pins maybe, and some time.

Again, just my opinion, take it for what its worth
Jim

[Blake]

Mock up the front end before welding. Ensure that when you stretch the front axle forward that the Pitman arm and steering links line up.

Moving that front axle more than a couple of inches may present problems...

[ChevyJoe]

I'm liking using the Chevy springs as leafs to cut down and put with my stock leafs better. I didn't realize how long the stock rear leafs are.

Thank you for the suggestions

[Tad]

1. You can move the front axle forward about an inch, I moved my hangers. That will help with #2 a bit the front shaft angle.
2. The QT front output is a bit more forward than what the D20 or NP rigs have, you will probably be into a high angle front CV if you flex it out a lot.
3. I've been welded in the rear for years (14-bolt) no issues other than exaggerated tire wear, but I don't have to deal with snow or ice.

[ChevyJoe]

after reading through some more threads, i'm thinking about flipping my rear springs around. this should give me a few inches of stretch in the rear. i can then re-drill my perches for that added inch in the front.

since the chevy springs have a centered centering pin while the waggy rear springs have an offset centering pin, will i have a problem if i redrill the centering hole in the chevy leafs that i add to the spring pack?

Tad you said that you're welded in the rear but in your signature it says you're running a 208 tcase. any experience with the welded rear and a quadratrac? this rig will never see the freeway but will see some street time getting to and from the trail.

[fulsizjeep]

You might ask member srobertsfsj about the locked rear end and QT. He ran one for a while with a mini-spool. AFAIK, he never had issues with it wheeling and I have wheeled with him a few times. Not sure how much road driving he did with it though because I think it became a dolly or trailer queen after the mini-spool.

[Tad]

If you bought the TT's perches from BJ's they already have the extra hole to move the axle forward, what you will have to do is elongated the hole in your spring plate to fit, essentially you will be slotting it abbout 1".

No experience with a QT rig other than helping a friend out now and then or welding perches on for them.

Also no experience with redrilling a leaf spring, not sure I would do it. I could be wrong but that seems like it might setup a weak area where the original hole is. I'd probably try trimming them to the length I wanted first.

[CutterN55]

Doing a budget build myself, I would advise that you buy exactly what you want and do it right the first time through research and planning.

I've done plenty of stuff on the cheap and ended up spending more money in the end as I've had rip out and replace or repair worn out & broken stuff.

Welded diffs or spools is awesome, but what you are saving in diff parts, will cost you in tire wear and stress on the dana 44's with big tires. I could have bought a nice locker and had it installed by now. My 33" BFG gen 1 M/T lasted about half the normal life with a spooled rear. I see quite a bit of pavement though.

Why don't you try a mini-spool for $50 and see if you like a locked up rear. If you do, leave it in there. If not, pull it out & sell it and put the money towards something else like a spartan or powertrax.

[wag4x6]

I wouldn't redrill the center pin hole. It could create a weak spot in the spring. If you do decide to drill you will go through A LOT of drill bits. The spring steel is extremely hard. The only spring I've ever drilled through took about 20min and I killed 3 drill bits and that was a single leaf ,not a whole pack.

[Hutcho]

http://www.partsmike.com/store/store...on=show_detail

these work good too for getting just a little bit...

[MonsterZ]

As far as running the spool, or welding the spider gears together in the rear, with a full time QT, not a generally good idea. You gotta understand that it operates your front and rear drivelines just like a Limited Slip, as that is exactly what it is in normal operation. In E-drive it locks up completely for a 50/50 split, so theoretically you could weld the rear, install lockout hubs up front, leave it in E-drive, and just unlock the hubs when you hit the street. Not doing that though will lead to excessive wear on the diff sprocket and disc's inside your case. Have fun trying to find another, they are very rapidly becoming unobtanium, as are the chains for them. I would recommend, especially having wheeled in your part of the country, finding a couple of used tru-tracs and tossing them in both ends for now, while you save for a no BS part time case and real lockers. It would still make you unbelievable on the trail with your buddies, leave you the ability to run it in normal operation on the street, and give you some decent winter driving ability while getting around Yakima. I know that finding some tru-tracs or trac-locs isn't terribly difficult there, I grew up not too far away from there. Good luck, can't wait to see pictures of the beast!!

[ChevyJoe]

Thanks for all the suggestions

Wag4x6, when you did your soa and sf, did you add any leafs to your stock packs?

As far as welding the rear goes, I've decided against it. Going to run it open and upgrade to a different tcase and axles when the time comes.

Will get some pics of the progress for you guys

[AlsChopShop]

Originally Posted by ChevyJoe

Going to run it open and upgrade to a different tcase and axles when the time comes.

not to discourage you, but you can't just swap t-cases with a quadratrac rig. the transmission has a super long shaft that only the QT uses so you would need to tear down the trans to swap out the tail shaft for your next case.

you should also seriously consider going with crossover steering when you go SOA so the drag link does not hit the spring and keeping you from turning right.

drilling leaf springs is not a good idea. leaf springs are heat treated so you will be weakening the spring and causing a future failure point by drilling through it. not to mention a complete PITA with that hard of steel.

Al

[Suddendeath]

Honestly, I'm a cheap college student and my truck has been very VERY budget-oriented since I started building her. Take a look at my build if you're interested in the "bare minimal" required to have a "done right" SOA/SF.

We're talking SOA/SF on your stock springs. Then add in 8" extended brake lines and extended shocks of your preferred flavor. Napa sells a shock that I think is for the rear of a Commanche that actually fits perfectly front and rear. I'll get the exact part #, but it was a hell of a lot cheaper than offroad shocks and rides decent.

Then add in about $200 for crossover steering re-using your stock tie rod and drag link, or about $300 if you go full high steer which I recommend. I started out with crossover since it was cheaper and am now upgrading the rest of the way.

I wheeled my truck this way, SOA/SF/Crossover Steering on stock saggy springs for almost 8 months before upgrading my springs with Team Grand Wagoneer stock-height SOA compatible springs. I never had an issue, besides the typical open/open axles leaving me with two wheels spinning in the mud.

I can't speak on the quadratrack, as I have a newer Wag with the np229. Maybe it would be easier to swap in the transmission/transfer case from a newer wag with a 727/NP208? Just a thought.

With this kind of stuff, it may seem expensive but it ends up being cheaper in the long run if you just do it 100% "right" the first time.

[ChevyJoe]

Yep, know about the long output on the 400. Probably buy a Chevy 400/208 combo and rebuild the tranny and use the 208.

I have full high steer on order. Will have the front end disassembled later this week to get the knuckles machined.

I'm worried about the stresses I'll be putting on my 400/QT combo with te 3.07 gears and 36x14.5s even with open diffs

[cmelo]

Originally Posted by ChevyJoe

total newb to ifsja so please move this if need be mods.

recently picked up a completely stock '77 wagoneer with the 360, th400, and quadratrac. also picked up tt's soa kit with the rear shackle flips and new brake lines from bj's offroad. high steer has been bought too.

i have a few questions about what i'll need to look out for when doing soa:

1. leaf springs - my stock springs are pretty flat. i have a good set of 56" chevy 3/4 ton rear springs that i was thinking about putting in the rear. this would allow me to put my rear springs up front (adding a couple leafs from the front pack) and increase my wb. other than lengthening drive shafts, is there any other problems i should look out for?

2. drive shafts - with soa, do i need to go to a cv joint on the rear driveshaft? will the front cv provide me with enough angle when flexing?

3. welding the rear d44 - i searched but couldn't find what i was looking for. is it ok to lock up the rear, front, or both when running the quadratrac?

this is a straight budget build (not half-assed) to get me into the hills with my buddies. if there's any opinions or something else you guys would recommend i'm all ears. thanks

1. Leave the stock ones in for now, they're easy enough to swap later. The 56" springs can be drilled with a masonry bit(one $1 bit went through about 12 leaves for a buddy of mine) if you plan on doing that ever.

2. My front driveshaft needed lengthening. The stock ones are too lame to even bother with. I use xj or durango front driveshafts shortened by myself.

3. I would, just because I don't think the 44 will last long with the 36" tires you plan on running anyway. So why not get better traction before it explodes anyway? Welding the front won't be fun for steering. Others might say the 44 will last depending on your uses, it might.

If you check out my thread you'll see i'm as cheap and lazy as it gets and started off with the same setup.

[ChevyJoe]

pictures:



gutted all the nasty carpet out



trimmed and cut the rust out of the rear quarters



all boxed in ready to be painted



front trimmed



used some 3/16ths cold rolled steel on the inside of the trimmed fenders to get rid of the sharp edge and add some rigidity



front with no lift and a 35

my next question is about my front springs; would you guys run them as is or add in a couple leafs? theyre just a 3 spring pack all about the same length:

[Suddendeath]

Set it up as is and then play with it to adjust the height. You never know how it's going to look/ride/feel with just the stock springs until you actually set the truck down on it's own weight.

After you set her down, you may realize that it's going to work fine. Or you may realize that you need a little more height. At that point, you can worry about a junkyard AAL or some other alternative.

[ChevyJoe]

Originally Posted by Suddendeath

Set it up as is and then play with it to adjust the height.

I know this is how I should do it but taking ubolts apart over and over again without an air ratchet blows.

Anybody have a link to the correct caster angle I need for when I go soa?