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  #21  
Old 03-27-2020, 01:31 AM
Rusty76 Rusty76 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Jul 15, 2018
Location: Cochrane
Posts: 313
I think I figured some of it out. If you stare blankly at enough diagrams eventually something clicks. I believe this is what I'm after. This pic finally made sense.

Coil wire goes to DUI distributor.
Solenoid Power wire goes to terminal of starter solenoid.
Started solenoid goes down to starter.
IGN Switch Start wire goes to starter solenoid.
Battery + goes to same side on the started solenoid as the big red solenoid wire.
Battery - goes from battery and splits to grounds. engine/ fender.
Tach goes to DUI distributor.
Alt Power Wire goes to Alternator.
Alt Excite goes to one of the male connects of Alt.

Couple things I need to research more is the;

Neutral safety Switch and the 3rd wire on the Alternator (voltage reader wire)
Also what I can toss now that I am using DUI distributor. Seems like some important stuff coming off both sealed boxes. The Electronic Ignition, module box.

Thanks!


IMG_0752 by , on Flickr
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  #22  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:11 AM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Location: Medford MA USA
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Which TSM are you looking at? I suggest you look at the 1982 wiring diagram on the Tom Collins site for an example of how the Delco alternator is wired. It has 3 connections -

1) the big wire to the battery connects to the battery terminal of the solenoid.

2) is the voltage sense wire. I think you call this the "voltage reader." Understand that the voltage regulator uses the battery voltage as feedback to tell it how much current to send to the battery. What may be confusing is that it regulates current to the battery by changing its output voltage. Jeep connects this wire right back to the alternator charge wire, #1 here.

The voltage of the battery controls the alternator voltage to the battery. The battery is a big current sink, and the more of a sink it is, the more it will pull down the regulated voltage from the alternator. As the battery charges, it becomes less of a sink and the alternator makes less current to pull up the voltage. Whatever current it takes to pull up the voltage, that's the current the alternator makes.

3) is the exciter wire. This comes from the ignition switch, and provides a tiny current needed to start the alternator from zero. The alternator uses its own current to make more current. This exciter wire is a bootstrap to get the alternator going. Once the alternator is charging, it holds the exciter wire at the same voltage as the ignition wire. You need some sort of blocker in this wire to prevent the alternato from backfeeding into the ignition switch when you turn off the ignition. This can be a resistance wire (what Jeep uses), an incandescent light bulb (the ALT light) or a diode.


Automatic transmission? Only automatics use the neutral safety switch. Assuming you have the right solenoid for this Jeep (1976, right? Helpful if you'd put that in your signature file), there should be a terminal for this on the underside of the solenoid. Your solenoid should have the two big terminals, one to the battery and one to the starter. It should have two smaller terminals on the top labeled S (start) and I (ignition). The neutral safety connection is the ground wire for the solenoid coil. It goes to the neutral safety switch (NSS) on the shift linkage or transmission. The NSS connect to ground when the transmission is in park or neutral, allowing the solenoid to energize from the ignition. In any other gear, the NSS has no ground connection and the solenoid is disabled.


The two sealed boxes should be the voltage regulator (VR) and the ignition control unit (ECU). The VR is replaced by the Delco alternator, which has a VR inside it. Same with the ECU and the HEI ignition.
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Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk

Last edited by tgreese : 03-27-2020 at 09:47 AM.
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  #23  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:15 AM
Rusty76 Rusty76 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Jul 15, 2018
Location: Cochrane
Posts: 313
Big thanks to tgreese and everybody else for taking the time.

Thats great news that with the DUI I can now delete the VR and ECU.

Looks like I might have the wrong starter solenoid on my 76 Wagoneer.
I only have one of the smaller terminal. The one towards the battery is present,
the started side is blank.

Prevent back feed on Exciter wire ok thanks. Yes the voltage sense wire does not seem to be part of my EZ wire harness. The alternator did have a third green wire connected. Will need to look into that.

I'm following the TSM that I printed off for the 76 Wagoneer. The wiring diagram in the back is very confusing but slowly getting it. I hope!
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  #24  
Old 03-27-2020, 12:05 PM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
Join Date: May 29, 2003
Location: Medford MA USA
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Hi -

I suspect youhave the right solenoid. Some years do not use the I terminal (Prestolite Jeeps?), and the OEM solenoids for them just delete it. The service part has the I terminal; when replacing in the OEM harness, you leave it empty.

Looking at the diagram for '76, I'm wrong about the terminal on the bottom of the solenoid. Your Jeep has the NSS breaking the wire between the switch and the solenoid. Your NSS will be closed in park and neutral but not connected to ground. You need to run the wire to the S terminal from the ignition switch, to the NSS wherever it is located, and then to the starter solenoid. The solenoid coil grounds through the bracket of the solenoid.
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk

Last edited by tgreese : 03-27-2020 at 12:14 PM.
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  #25  
Old 03-27-2020, 12:39 PM
Rusty76 Rusty76 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Jul 15, 2018
Location: Cochrane
Posts: 313
Decided to go grab a new Solenoid from Napa. Good price and gave me a reason to sneak out of the house. Excited to get some work done tonight!

IMG_0765 by Colin McArthur, on Flickr
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  #26  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:49 AM
Rusty76 Rusty76 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Jul 15, 2018
Location: Cochrane
Posts: 313
Hope everyone is doing well. I'm about to start days off and am looking forward to knocking off most of this wiring harness. Couple rookie questions to get me going again. Please excuse my lack of proper jargon.

I'm a little stumped on the Alt wiring. I have looked at the wiring diagrams but I'm still a little fuzzy, or maybe its just the night shifts.

Here are some pictures of what I've done so far. Shouldn't I have some wire running directly from the Batt to my Alt? I wired it the way that I received it from the PO. Also on the back of my ALT I have two big terminals one with a Red disc the other with a brownish disc. IT seems to me that my ALT power should go to the RED connection. PO had it how I have it in picture going to brownish. The little black lines coming off solenoid power is the fusible link Stay safe everybody!

IMG_0781 by , on FlickrIMG_0782 by , on FlickrIMG_0784 by , on Flickr
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  #27  
Old 04-01-2020, 03:36 PM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Location: Medford MA USA
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That's a Motorola alternator. It requires an external voltage regulator. Suggest you convert to the 3-wire Delco alternator. Your drawing above assumes all-GM, so you're mixing paradigms. Only the HEI is GM.
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Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk

Last edited by tgreese : 04-01-2020 at 03:42 PM.
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  #28  
Old 04-01-2020, 04:11 PM
Rusty76 Rusty76 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Jul 15, 2018
Location: Cochrane
Posts: 313
Ah ok. Thanks! What amps would you recommend?
I dont plan on putting a massive stereo in. I do plan on maybe EFI if that makes a diif.
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Rebuilt, 360, TH400, QT.
Still not running. Soon!
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  #29  
Old 04-01-2020, 06:06 PM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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That's likely a 30A Motorola. (Later - book says they came in 37A and 51A varieties. I'd assume this is std and optional HD.) Are you removing any ammeter? Don't run more current through the ammeter than the original alternator would make.

http://madelectrical.com/electricaltech/delcoremy.shtml
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Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk

Last edited by tgreese : 04-02-2020 at 06:37 AM.
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  #30  
Old 04-02-2020, 06:10 AM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Location: Medford MA USA
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The brackets for the Delco alternators are slightly different. You can address this by either buying a Delco made specifically to replace the Motorola (look online), or by minor machining on the case of the Delco alternator.

You could buy a 10SI for a Jeep application, like a '76 with a 258. You'd still need to hack the case some. I think you drill out the bolt hole a bit and maybe cut off some of the length of the mounting boss. Search online - someone must have covered it. https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/jeep,1976,cherokee,4.2l+258cid+l6,1179266,electric al,alternator+/+generator,2412 It's very easy to turn the case ("clock the case") to whatever angle you want. Use a toothpick to hold back the brushes when you put the case halves back together. There's a hole specifically for this.

You could also use the Motorola. It's a pretty bad alternator though - the diodes in them fail a lot. You'd also need to put the external voltage regulator back.
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Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
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  #31  
Old 04-03-2020, 06:32 PM
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67GMC 67GMC is offline
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Location: Fort Erie, ON
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Tgreese is giving great advice.

From experience, if you're going to re-use a regulator, buy a new one. They make a solid state version that replaces the stock mechanical. The mechanical ones tend to fail (although cheap to replace).

Also, I think the connectors on the solenoid for the NSS are the same as the temp sender connector. You can still get these push-on connectors from Amazon and probably RockAuto if you want to be able to pull them off. A nut and ring connector will work too like you have.

I had issues with that exciter wire so I would trace it right back to the firewall to make sure it's in good shape.

Great thread.
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  #32  
Old 04-04-2020, 08:59 AM
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elskeptico elskeptico is offline
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Location: Bay Area, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67GMC
I've also seen a fair bit of poor soldering that causes sharp points that poke through the insulation and cause issues.

This is a good point for anything soldered and wrapped with shrink tube or electrical tape. Often the solder creates these little peaks that poke through, or just a bit of the wire ends up poking out.

Something I started doing is after soldering a joint, I take some pliers and crimp the soldered joint all the way around. This flattens out any poky peaks so they
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  #33  
Old 04-04-2020, 11:05 AM
Rusty76 Rusty76 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Jul 15, 2018
Location: Cochrane
Posts: 313
Thanks everybody. Yes tgreese is a wiring stud! I picked up a ac delco alternator
from Napa. Not sure if its the 10si or the 12si. It says 12v so I'm guessing its the 12si? As you know it required some modification to fit the old motorola bracket.
I needed to cut the 2 inch foot down some and slightly bore out the pivot hole.
Well nothing is easy is it! I probably cut too much off the pivot and bored out too much as well. I think this allowed the alternator to drop making the fins contact the bracket. At this point thinking that I've wasted major time and $ mucking up this alternator voiding the warranty I was tempted to push the rig out to the street and spray FREE on her. Decided to take the grinder to the bracket and it seems to have worked.

I will take a look at that exciter wire thanks for the tip. Now to go back and figure out how to wire. IMG_0795 by , on FlickrIMG_0796 by IMG_0798 by , on Flickrcom/photos/168069932@N02/][/url], on Flickr
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