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Old 09-26-2013, 06:59 AM
wewillsurvive wewillsurvive is offline
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Issue I need help with

First off I want to state that I have received a lot of help over at FSJN and thank everyone of you that has attempted to help with this but I seemed to have hit a wall and I need to resolve this soon. This is two threads blended together to tell the story so please bear with me and ask for any clarification you need I will give all the info I can.

During my 20'ish mile to work drive to work the Jeep GW 86 GW AMC 360 stock drove fine for the first 6 or so miles then for about 4 miles it spit, sputtered and generally acted like the ignition/ coil or something was junk. Drove to a little town pulled over in a lighted parking lot, popped hood, looked for obvious issues saw nine shut hood, drove the other 8-10 miles to work with no issues. Any ideas?

I recently replaced the battery and fuel pump nothing else has changed. Also it was raining this AM the whole way to work and I hit no puddles on the way to work.

Jaber- I have had puddles do nasty things to the distributer. Being on the front, the fan likes to through water at it.

Really leaning toward coil breaking down, same distance today, no rain, similar problem.

tgreese- How long have you owned this car? Have you replaced the ignition wires?

This is a typical scenario for old ignition wires in rainy weather.

One of the main advantages of the TFI upgrade is the conversion to and availability of inexpensive high-quality plug wires with the newer style push-on distributor terminals. These terminals are much more weather resistant than the old 'cup' terminals used on the cheaper cap.


I have had it since March or so.

I have no idea what TFI is but I know now it has MSD wires on a ford distributor with a coil on the York pump and a ford ignition box (it was replaced before i got it) on drivers inner fender.

Coil

Module

Dizzy


I am replacing cap, rotor, plugs, wires, and likely the coil this week. (At this point everything but the wires are new)

Serehill- Replace the ignition box first. It's hghly doubtful it's any of the other stuff. My money is on fuel delivery. Ignition box would be a distant second. Usually the wires & cap & rotor are consisttent once it starts it doesn't go away. The box could be intermittent.



Jaber- http://fsjeep.homestead.com/TFI_Upgade.html

Its an add on to your existing dizzy. The best advise on the ignition module is to make sure its either a Motorcraft or Napa brand. The others dont seem to last as long. There is also a way to replace it with a standard GM 4 pin module, if thats something you want to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by serehill
Replace the ignition box first. It's highly doubtful it's any of the other stuff. My money is on fuel delivery. Ignition box would be a distant second. Usually the wires & cap & rotor are consistent once it starts it doesn't go away. The box could be intermittent.

Define fuel delivery, it just got a new pump two weeks

Jaber- If the hoses at the top of the tank were rotten, it would suck more air then fuel. My eagle had a tight bend in the hose from the tank and as it would warm up, it would pinch closed and limit fuel.

I have seen the ign. boxes shut down when heated to engine temps...

Serehill- New pump doesn't mean a lot. Assuming something is perfect is the mother of all puzzles. it could be anything from trash in the tank to a bad sock to a bad filter OR Gas lines like jaber said to filters to still a bad pump. So you recently put a new pump on there means this has been going on a while.

As symptoms were stated earlier usually the box dies it doesn't cool off while driving & get better. Wires crack carbon tracks are usually consistent & don't come & go. Fuel does. It may be something else. indicators say fuel.


I haven't had what i consider fuel issues while owning it had ran and drove fine, new pump made it not take so long in the AM to fill the carb to fire.

I'll update you guys next week with my findings or a for sale post.

So with this info in hand I start down the fuel delivery path...

Some background info seems appropriate here, on top of these problems my fan clutch was bad and causing it to run hot thus boiling the fuel so I replaced the fan clutch and the overheating problem is gone

Alright guys I posted I had a weird problem on the way to work one morning and it has now done it enough I am confident it is (as some of you said a fuel system issue). I'm going to give the details I know and I will answer questions that I have info for but I am stumped.

The system as I understand it is a stock tank and fuel line (delivery and return), 1973 pump (new about a month ago), steel fuel line into rubber with a "T" that goes to another piece of rubber line to a fuel pressure gauge to rubber line to holley carb. Now back to the "T" the other side of it has a fuel pressure regulator set at 4 psi and it feeds the return line (I turned it up to 5.5 psi yesterday)

I believe the system to be vapor locking, I pulled the bowl sight plug out yesterday and couldn't see fuel at all and filter (only and in and an out, no return line) was also empty. I have since reworked the system to take out the "T" so the pump feed goes straight to the pressure gauge them to carb, have not had the starvation issue since.

Any ideas? Do I need a return line?

Footnote I replaced the fan clutch today because it was bad and the temps would climb as I was stopped, heater running kept it somewhat cool and moving it was 220 'ish, now it is about 200 all the time.

Serehill- Take the regulator out & throw it as far as you can. Why do you have a regulator on a stock pump. Vented or not there is no way you getting enough pressure. Read the instructions very carefully on how to operate the regulator. They not only regulate pressure they restrict flow. It may not be all the problem you have but it's a beginning. Replace all rubber lines. the return line does help regulate pressure & maintain proper ventilation in the tank if you do not have a vented cap.

I didn't put it on the PO did.

So can I put a stock filter with the return line port on it? While running my fuel filter is now completely full

Serehill- Yes you can the filter will stay full if the regulator is restricting it. it really doesn't matter who put it on.

Just so we're on the same page the regulator wasn't in the main fuel line, it was in the return line that ran from the "T". I'll see if I can find a pic.
You can see it in the background here...

This is where it was, the line running left is the carb line the one with the regulator running right is the return line.

Serehill- That's is too weird. No wonder it has no delivery.


Two months later the problem is back...
Jaber. I am interested in hearing about the GM replacement module mod for this TFI system.

haminawag- Hmmmm.....no way you coulda gotten some water in the fuel?

Nope this thread is older, it was thought to be a vapor lock issue caused by it overheating. However it has done a few other things similar to this the last three days. I still think it's an ignition issue.


Jaber- Here you go. Some guys even gut their old MC unit and mount the GM in it as a heat sink...



Carnuck- After driving around for awhile, hit the ignition module with a rubber mallet and see if it stalls. That was the dealer test.

OK so I think that there may be two different issues going on or maybe the issue is causing both of these gremlins. Not only does it do that sputtering stuttering thing mentioned above but now on occasion it's like someone shuts the key off. It fires right back up everytime but sometimes it just shuts off while driving it... random not just when hitting a bump or anything else. Like this morning I drove it about 5 feet and it just shut off. Anyone have an idea?

Jaber- I have found this issue in the ignition switch under the dash. drop the 2 nuts holding the steering column to the dash and the switch is on top of the column. Also check the condition of the wires where they go into the plugs.

Carnuck- module headed south or a huge wad of keys swinging back and forth.

Not the keys, I have three on my key chain, house, charger and GW.

Jaber- Keys would effect the lock cyl, not the electrical switch. Age takes it out.

Ok so the switch and the ign module are the suspects. Got it I'll replace them both.

I'm gonna post a video to YouTube and link it here so you guys can hear what my jeep is doing, the new ignition module did not fix the problem.

I have not yet installed the ignition switch.

Video here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQsSVg-LI6Q


OK so you guys have a heads up it does it as I am turning left at the start and then after the second stop sign as I'm going up the hill it doesn't do it again after the red barn on the right. I know it's hard to hear but it is audible (I'm 39 as a reference to me being able to hear it)

Last edited by wewillsurvive : 09-26-2013 at 08:06 AM.
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  #2  
Old 09-26-2013, 07:01 AM
wewillsurvive wewillsurvive is offline
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Also sorry about the vertical video, I wasn't aware it would look like that.

Replaced all of the following thus far...

Fuel pump and all lines in engine compartment
Ignition module, still ford haven't tried the GM conversion yet.
Coil to MSD Streetfire
Cap and rotor with brass contacts
Spark plugs
Fan clutch I know it isn't directly related but figured I'd put it here since it was thought to be a vapor lock issue due to it overheating

I have the new ignition switch just haven't yet installed it.

And the distributor has been reset to a better position and retimed

Last edited by wewillsurvive : 09-26-2013 at 08:07 AM.
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  #3  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:29 AM
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serehill serehill is offline
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Honestly

Take it to a mechanic.


Not trying to be smart it sounds like it's time to cut losses. I know the picture is old but I see several issues & seeing the ignition box & everything else that's been replaced is missing the target. It's getting to the point where you're guessing & not taking an analytical approach of the process of elimination. this is a very expensive & frustrating way to go. My Only goal is a solution.

The issue here is we on the board are only as functional as the input, As you can see it takes different folks into different directions. I for one am done guessing & won't venture further confuse the issue. This is also the downfall of posting on both sites.
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.

Last edited by serehill : 09-26-2013 at 09:22 AM.
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  #4  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:35 AM
wewillsurvive wewillsurvive is offline
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Sorry, those words aren't in my vocab. I'll figure it out or just live with it till whatever it is actually breaks.
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  #5  
Old 09-26-2013, 09:26 AM
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serehill serehill is offline
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Okie Dokie

I know that seems terse but it is not meant to be that way.
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80 Cherokee
360 ci 727 with
Comp cams 270 h
NP208
Edlebrock performer intake
Holley 4180
Msd total multi spark.
4" rusty's springs
Member, FSJ Prissy Restoration Association

If you can't make it better why waste your time. No use repeating the orignal mistakes. I'm to old to push it that's why.
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  #6  
Old 09-26-2013, 09:41 AM
wewillsurvive wewillsurvive is offline
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Didn't feel it was terse at all
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  #7  
Old 09-26-2013, 09:45 AM
JeepWrencher JeepWrencher is offline
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WeWill,

I just had the 360 in my J10 do the same thing which was simply turn the-F-off as I was driving happily along. As soon as it happened I would turn the key to 'Off' position and then back to 'Run' position and it would immediately fire and run for awhile longer. I replaced a similar parts list before I was able to find two age related issues that were causing the problems.

The first was the wires coming from the pickup in your distrubutor have to make their way behind the engine and over to that ignition module box before the signal is sent all the way back around to the coil. I found that one of my wires had been rubbing against the AC bracket and had an occasional short to ground. It was random because the spot was small and the AMC engines vibrate alot. Sometimes it would hit the spot and kill my engine, but once the vibrations had stopped the wire was in a different spot and it would light right back up.
1. Check the wires from the distributor to the ignition box.

The second issue was at the coil where I still have the factory coil. AMC had a plastic cap that the signal wires for the coil were mounted in. After 30+ years one of my wires had gotten brittle and broken almost all the way through. Anytime I would hit a bump or the wire would get too warm from use my spark was dead. Wait 10 minutes and or wiggle that plastic cradle and I would be back in business.
2. Check signal wires feeding your coil.

Just my general experience is that bad coils tend to leak oil, bad MotorCraft ignition boxes tend to leak sticky blue gunk. Both of those are because the device has over heated and is spewing the insulating material from inside.

I don't see how converting to the GM style ignition will help you unless you fix the acutal problem by accident along the way.
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  #8  
Old 09-26-2013, 09:50 AM
JeepWrencher JeepWrencher is offline
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Also, if you do have to splice those wires from your distributor pickup be forewarned that they are extreamly fine wire and the PVC jacket on them is very annoying to get off without messing the wires up further.
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  #9  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:36 PM
wewillsurvive wewillsurvive is offline
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Thanks Jeepwrencher, I'll look into those wires. With that being said maybe I should follow through on my plan of finding another harness to rebuild
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  #10  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:56 PM
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itselliot itselliot is offline
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I also have the issues you describe

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=167625

Although I already did the ignition upgrades along with the inline diode and HEI ( Stealth GM module) upgrade also. Gertrude will cough and spit intermittantly then run like a new engine.........then cough and spit (figuratively) again.........usually at idle and in gear.

I am planning a trip to an old school sun machine (Took quite a few phone calls to find one still in operation) next week Tuesday to scope out the ignition system .

The wiring from the Distributor to the module is making the most sense to me at this time.

I willpost what I find.

I wonder if the fact that both of our GW's are light sand metallic is an issue...........
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'78 J-20 401 Q/T not quite stock anymore....Frame off Resto Mod..Super Cab nearing completion. SOMEDAY
"90 GW 360/727/229/3:31s 2" lift (SOLD in 2015)
'78 CJ7 Built from Scratch over a 7 year span.

Last edited by itselliot : 09-27-2013 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:46 AM
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letank letank is offline
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You need fuel and electricity, need to find out which one is lacking...

I can see a fuel pressure regulator.... Ditch it, for test purpose. Is your pump electric or mechanical... Check fuel pressure, or pull over when misfiring, remove carb air horn and check for fuel level,

May be yur oil pressure switch is defective and the choke is being activated... Put some metal clips to keep the choke flapper open.

Your electrical seems to be a bit messy, so time to secure some good ground, and make sure that the voltage is up to specs.

Is the distributor wobbly...

You can always wire 12v from battery to coil to see if it helps... Done at yur own risks.

As said, time to find a good mechanic, the one with grey hair... Harder to find than a girl friend....oooops.... I meant partner...
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See Ouray 2013, Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work

Last edited by letank : 09-28-2013 at 09:49 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-01-2013, 05:48 PM
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itselliot itselliot is offline
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Location: 49410
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Spent the entire day at the garage

And essentially came away empty!

We put it on the scope and went thru EVERYTHING.
Had a carbon trace on #1 spark plug and we replaced it.
It had only 7 degrees backlash from the crank to the distributor.
We had 135-145 on compression readings (156K miles on her)
at 12* she fires right up......and stumblles BADLY........dies.
At 15* she will at least get out of her own way at takeoff.
At 19* she runs and drives pretty well.
These settings are at idle, vacuum removed from the dizzy.
Carb had the accelerator pump at the top hole of the lever....we moved it to the center hole for quicker response.
New PowerValve
Checked and reset the float.
Tweaked the idle mixture.
Found 1 vacuum leak in a manifold port line.....fixed it.

Next move is to replace the GM 4 pin HEI module with a Stock unit ( need to buy) ............
Only other thought is a wire that is rubbed raw somewhere..........possibly inside the dizzy...........I will be looking at that .

So, basically 3 of us .me and 2 professional mechanics (age 78 and 55) that have been racing all their lives...........and lots of equiptment was on hand...............came up stumped for the moment.
He only billed me $160 for the entire day of their time tho.
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616 four 03 44 0 five
'78 J-20 401 Q/T not quite stock anymore....Frame off Resto Mod..Super Cab nearing completion. SOMEDAY
"90 GW 360/727/229/3:31s 2" lift (SOLD in 2015)
'78 CJ7 Built from Scratch over a 7 year span.

Last edited by itselliot : 10-01-2013 at 05:52 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-03-2013, 12:33 PM
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itselliot itselliot is offline
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Whooo Hooo!

So here we go.............
the stumbling I was experiencing was totally related to vacuum advance and a vacuum leak ..........the EGR hose became disconnected and went unnoticed..........

What with everything I posted above.........19* initial advance still is the setting.........I will bring it down 1-2* and re check, but at 155K on the engine and all emissions hooked up (except CTO.........manifold vacuum to the dizzy) she is running like I want.........smooth and GREAT acceleration)

NOT going to change the HEI Module..............

That said...........keep checking back on everything you thought was OK and make sure that it still is.
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616 four 03 44 0 five
'78 J-20 401 Q/T not quite stock anymore....Frame off Resto Mod..Super Cab nearing completion. SOMEDAY
"90 GW 360/727/229/3:31s 2" lift (SOLD in 2015)
'78 CJ7 Built from Scratch over a 7 year span.
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Old 10-03-2013, 01:24 PM
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jdaniel83 jdaniel83 is offline
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Glad you got it figured out. My '89 has always liked more timing then most (around 18-19* initial) and it runs great and doesn't ping so I leave it alone.
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Old 10-03-2013, 01:37 PM
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itselliot itselliot is offline
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Just to be clear

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaniel83
Glad you got it figured out. My '89 has always liked more timing then most (around 18-19* initial) and it runs great and doesn't ping so I leave it alone.

I am not the O.P........just sharing the similar issue I was having..........sharing the experience.
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616 four 03 44 0 five
'78 J-20 401 Q/T not quite stock anymore....Frame off Resto Mod..Super Cab nearing completion. SOMEDAY
"90 GW 360/727/229/3:31s 2" lift (SOLD in 2015)
'78 CJ7 Built from Scratch over a 7 year span.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:10 PM
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jdaniel83 jdaniel83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itselliot
I am not the O.P........just sharing the similar issue I was having..........sharing the experience.

Yeah I didn't realize that when I first posted my response, but still glad you got yours figured out. Good luck to the O.P. also.
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'70 Wagoneer; stock Buick Dauntless 350, TH400; 3.73 stock gears

'83 Wagoneer Limited; stock 360, 727, 3.31 gears.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:46 PM
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Just went through a stumble then no start with the 401 in the '82 Wagoneer. Turned out to be aluminum contact dist cap and rotor gone to crap (changed the rotor, no start. Changed the coil and increased spark, but no start, changed the cap and it ran like a raped ape)
It started coughing and acting up the next day and found a pond of water in the dual tanks.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:07 AM
wewillsurvive wewillsurvive is offline
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Thanks for the well wishes guys. Having not touched a thing the issue has been gone for a week or so (one more reason I think it is electrical and not fuel or vacuum). So once again I play a waiting game to see if it returns, meanwhile I have moved on to other projects.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:10 AM
wewillsurvive wewillsurvive is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letank
You need fuel and electricity, need to find out which one is lacking...

I can see a fuel pressure regulator.... Ditch it, for test purpose. Is your pump electric or mechanical... Check fuel pressure, or pull over when misfiring, remove carb air horn and check for fuel level,

May be yur oil pressure switch is defective and the choke is being activated... Put some metal clips to keep the choke flapper open.

Your electrical seems to be a bit messy, so time to secure some good ground, and make sure that the voltage is up to specs.

Is the distributor wobbly...

You can always wire 12v from battery to coil to see if it helps... Done at yur own risks.

As said, time to find a good mechanic, the one with grey hair... Harder to find than a girl friend....oooops.... I meant partner...

Letank the fuel system is not setup that way anymore it was switched when I got rid of my vaporlock issue. The electrical is messy but its almost 30 years old too, I am working on finding another harness to rebuild to replace this one... preferably one without A/C. The distributor cap moves but nothing else. Rotor, cap, coil, gin. module are all new as are the plugs. Wires are not new.... yet.
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