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  #1  
Old 02-25-2013, 02:56 PM
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Dr. Marneaus Dr. Marneaus is offline
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Post New Axles and Rebuild - D44's - Updates and questions

Well, I hopped in my lil' truck and drove my butt out to AZ to pick up some parts from a member here, and this is what I returned home with:



Plans are:

1. Full rebuild on both axles. Keeping stock gears:
-Bearings
-U joints
-Seals
-Ball Joints
-Tie Rod Ends
-Calipers/Rotors/Pads
-Wheel Cylinders/Shoes/Hardware/Drums
-Cleaned up and painted.

2. Install lunchbox Locker in front end

3. Instal Manual Hubs in front end

4. New diff covers, welded steel or cast iron.

5. Refurbish those stock style steelies, swap over my tires, and mate them to the Dog Dishes

6. Install the axles and wheels!
- REAR AXLE IN

I will update all of this as I go along.

Basic concept is to have "new" axles going under the truck. I figure i might as well do the work while the axles are out from under the truck and not have to worry about anything in the foreseeable future.

Any input is helpful. If you have suggestions on something I've missed, or on something I shouldn't bother with, please let me know, I dont claim to know everything or be right all the time, and appreciate constructive input.
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The Beast Build Thread:Marns '73 Wagoneer Thread
1973 Wagoneer - 1987 360 w/ factory 4bbl - TH400 - D20 - D30/D44

Last edited by Dr. Marneaus : 03-20-2013 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:02 PM
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Suddendeath Suddendeath is offline
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Do you have a quadratrack? That rear axle looks like it is the offset differential design that they ran with the Q-track.

Not sure if you'll have any issues with that or not. Could foresee some weird vibrations with the U joint angles.

In my opinion, I would run the lunchbox locker in the back of the truck. If you want a front locker, I would go selectable or nothing. You'll get real tired of the steering effort after a long day of wheeling.

Otherwise, good luck! Whenever I have an axle out of a truck, and I'm not sure of it's condition, I like to go over all bearings/brakes/steering like you're doing.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddendeath
Do you have a quadratrack? That rear axle looks like it is the offset differential design that they ran with the Q-track.

Not sure if you'll have any issues with that or not. Could foresee some weird vibrations with the U joint angles.

Even the Dana 20 vehicles used a passenger offset rear axle from 1963 through at least 1973 to clear the super wide gas tank. He'll be fine.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJunkie
Even the Dana 20 vehicles used a passenger offset rear axle from 1963 through at least 1973 to clear the super wide gas tank. He'll be fine.


This ^

My 73' rear end is offset passenger side anyway, which doesnt really matter seeing as the drive shaft comes out centered on the tranny anyway. There's a slight angle. However the QT D44 is offset way MORE than the D20 version. (the pre 74 axles are offset something like 3" to clear the gas tank, where as the q-trac axles have the diff way off to the side.

From my reading, this is still okay. The angle will be a more extreme, but should still work. I have 4" of lift as well, so there will likely be some compound angle in there, even though there already is. I figure absolute worse cast scenario, I can have a new DS with a double cardan joint installed and that should fix some of the issue? If I'm mistaken, please correct me. Or better yet, if somebody has actual experience with this, please let me know.
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Last edited by Dr. Marneaus : 02-25-2013 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:51 PM
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When did you decide to put a locker in only the front axle? That's a bad idea, IMO.

If it was mine, and I did the kind of driving you do, I'd put a LSD in the rear and be proud and happy. The factory TracLock will be a big improvement over an open rear axle, and will drive nice. You should be able to find one cheap - Randy's has some hints for rebuilding them. A PowerLock would be better, but is a little more scarce and will cost more.

Seems like you spend a lot of time on rough two-track trails... a LSD or locker in the rear axle will help hill climbing a lot. A locker in the front will be much less effective, and will make the Jeep harder to drive. The weight transfers to the rear axle when you go uphill, so a LSD in the rear axle is the way to go - unless you want to go up steep hills backwards. That's the only place the factory ever put them.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:57 PM
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Also, what do you mean by rebuild? Are you going to set up these axles? If you replace bearings, you'll need to set up the gears as if they were new. I don't think there's any need take the case out out the carrier unless you plan to install different gears or want to change to a different differential type (ie LSD or locking).

Sorry if I'm sounding overly negative here. The axles will be a big upgrade, esp. with those brakes. And I guess you got the factory caps with the holes in the middle - I have those on my J-10, and the factory ones have a nice rolled edge around the inside of the holes. I guess you've resolved the tire-wheel conflict...
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Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
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Last edited by tgreese : 02-25-2013 at 03:59 PM.
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  #7  
Old 02-25-2013, 04:03 PM
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Dr. Marneaus Dr. Marneaus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
When did you decide to put a locker in only the front axle? That's a bad idea, IMO.

If it was mine, and I did the kind of driving you do, I'd put a LSD in the rear and be proud and happy. The factory TracLock will be a big improvement over an open rear axle, and will drive nice. You should be able to find one cheap - Randy's has some hints for rebuilding them. A PowerLock would be better, but is a little more scarce and will cost more.

Seems like you spend a lot of time on rough two-track trails... a LSD or locker in the rear axle will help hill climbing a lot. A locker in the front will be much less effective, and will make the Jeep harder to drive. The weight transfers to the rear axle when you go uphill, so a LSD in the rear axle is the way to go - unless you want to go up steep hills backwards. That's the only place the factory ever put them.

I'll weigh the options before making any final decisions on the locker. I kind of picked it up on a whim, I can always do it now, later, or get rid of it.

I've always been told by plenty of XJ and TJ people (the world i used to live in, haha) that an automatic locker up front makes a huge difference.

In the situation where I have manual hubs in the front, it'll be 100% invisible until I need it. I dont want to make it sound like I never wheel hard, but in A LOT of situations, I'm only in 2wd on my trails, like on those two-tracks. in which situation there will be no ill effects. However, there's soft stuff out here that has bested me in the past, and a locker would help pull through it.

I'm just going by experiences that I've read from people who have front lockers. I'll keep doing research before i do that part of the work. I'm not sure if you ever have or havent had a locker up front, I know I sure havent, and I know lots of people havent, so I like to look at info from people who HAVE had one.

I know friends with spools in the rear end that were always told by all their friends (who never have driven with one) "oh thats terrible on the road you're going to hate it," but it turns out to be totally controllable and not nearly as big a deal as people make it out to be.

So, honestly, the verdict is still out on the locker. I appreciate the info, thats why i'm here!
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The Beast Build Thread:Marns '73 Wagoneer Thread
1973 Wagoneer - 1987 360 w/ factory 4bbl - TH400 - D20 - D30/D44
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
Also, what do you mean by rebuild? Are you going to set up these axles? If you replace bearings, you'll need to set up the gears as if they were new. I don't think there's any need take the case out out the carrier unless you plan to install different gears or want to change to a different differential type (ie LSD or locking).

Sorry if I'm sounding overly negative here. The axles will be a big upgrade, esp. with those brakes. And I guess you got the factory caps with the holes in the middle - I have those on my J-10, and the factory ones have a nice rolled edge around the inside of the holes. I guess you've resolved the tire-wheel conflict...


No worries, toss it all out there!

I mean rebuild by "replace the normally serviced parts" i dunno, does that make more sense? Aside from the possible locker, I don't plan to touch anything inside the diff. I'm not talking about replacing differential bearings or pinion bearings or anything. I will not be "setting up" the gears.

When I said bearings, I meant wheel bearings. Guess I should have been more specific.
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Originally Posted by FSJunkie
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The Beast Build Thread:Marns '73 Wagoneer Thread
1973 Wagoneer - 1987 360 w/ factory 4bbl - TH400 - D20 - D30/D44
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  #9  
Old 02-25-2013, 04:34 PM
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I did this swap on my '73, the ONLY issue I had was the pitman arm.
I hit/rubbed the tie rod end.

I think I reamed out an older style pitman arm to accept the larger TRE.
Mine wasn't lifted, so your mileage may vary?

Just something to watch for after you get the front axle installed.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:38 PM
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Yeah

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
When did you decide to put a locker in only the front axle? That's a bad idea, IMO.

If it was mine, and I did the kind of driving you do, I'd put a LSD in the rear and be proud and happy. The factory TracLock will be a big improvement over an open rear axle, and will drive nice. You should be able to find one cheap - Randy's has some hints for rebuilding them. A PowerLock would be better, but is a little more scarce and will cost more.

Seems like you spend a lot of time on rough two-track trails... a LSD or locker in the rear axle will help hill climbing a lot. A locker in the front will be much less effective, and will make the Jeep harder to drive. The weight transfers to the rear axle when you go uphill, so a LSD in the rear axle is the way to go - unless you want to go up steep hills backwards. That's the only place the factory ever put them.


Sometime he no listen. School of Hard knocks. posi with no Hubs ?????
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Marneaus
...

I've always been told by plenty of XJ and TJ people (the world i used to live in, haha) that an automatic locker up front makes a huge difference.
...

We just had a discussion about this on ECJ5 if you want to read it: http://www.earlycj5.net/forums/showt...-front-vs-rear Geoffrey there is 15 or 16 - but the average age there is pretty old, and we may not understand the issues with newer vehicles... (dissimulating slightly). Also, I wonder if they mean in addition to some LSD/locker in the rear axle? A rear LSD is a very, very common factory option for any vehicle with conventional 4WD.

And, these axles are both 44s, and you have a lunchbox locker? Won't it fit in either axle? I think you'd be much better off to install it in the rear axle, if you have the choice. A Wagoneer has a long enough wheelbase that the extra understeer should be controllable. And you don't see a lot of snow and ice there.

When I drive my Jeeps and I think I might need 4WD, I just lock the hubs and am done with it. Then they stay locked, until I'm on the highway on my way home. And I use 4WD whenever I'm off the pavement - no reason not to - just point and go. Do you really want to dial the left and right hub in and out depending on the trail conditions?
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
I did this swap on my '73, the ONLY issue I had was the pitman arm.
I hit/rubbed the tie rod end.

I think I reamed out an older style pitman arm to accept the larger TRE.
Mine wasn't lifted, so your mileage may vary?

Just something to watch for after you get the front axle installed.

I had remembered reading many moons ago that you swapped in later model D44's under your 73, and was going to ask you haha.

So, glad to hear the driveline worked out for you.

Related question - in the event that there are issues with the rear driveline angle due to my lift, what could be done to fix it? Double cardan?
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The Beast Build Thread:Marns '73 Wagoneer Thread
1973 Wagoneer - 1987 360 w/ factory 4bbl - TH400 - D20 - D30/D44
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  #13  
Old 02-25-2013, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
We just had a discussion about this on ECJ5 if you want to read it: http://www.earlycj5.net/forums/showt...-front-vs-rear Geoffrey there is 15 or 16 - but the average age there is pretty old, and we may not understand the issues with newer vehicles... (dissimulating slightly). Also, I wonder if they mean in addition to some LSD/locker in the rear axle? A rear LSD is a very, very common factory option for any vehicle with conventional 4WD.

And, these axles are both 44s, and you have a lunchbox locker? Won't it fit in either axle? I think you'd be much better off to install it in the rear axle, if you have the choice. A Wagoneer has a long enough wheelbase that the extra understeer should be controllable. And you don't see a lot of snow and ice there.

When I drive my Jeeps and I think I might need 4WD, I just lock the hubs and am done with it. Then they stay locked, until I'm on the highway on my way home. And I use 4WD whenever I'm off the pavement - no reason not to - just point and go. Do you really want to dial the hubs in and out depending on the trail conditions?

Thanks for the link, I'll definitely read through it later.

Yes, it works front or rear.

I guess different strokes for different folks. I currently just drive until it looks like I'll need 4wd, then hop out, lock em in, and throw it in 4wd. I guess I could start doing the hubs as soon as I hit the trailhead. I dunno? Different driving/wheeling practice is all I guess.

I suppose if the advantage of having the front locker when i need it, compared to the disadvantage of the rear locker during daily driving conditions, is greater than the inconvenience of having to get out and change my hubs a few times (if that many) then it makes sense to put it up front, haha.

I'll keep reading up and decide when i get there i guess?
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Originally Posted by FSJunkie
Dr. Marneaus is now officially my idol.

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The Beast Build Thread:Marns '73 Wagoneer Thread
1973 Wagoneer - 1987 360 w/ factory 4bbl - TH400 - D20 - D30/D44
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:10 PM
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Gambler68 Gambler68 is offline
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put the lunchbox in the rear and buy the gnarliest Ujoint you can afford for the driveshaft attaching to it. What brand did you buy for the lunchbox? I have the Aussie one, and it installed easily and has been a wild improvement. You really dont even need a front locker..I'd install the one you have, wheel it, and decide for yourself if another 1k is needed to install a front selectable one..my money will be on NOT needing it...unless you plan on climbing dry waterfalls and whatnot. The reason lockers dont affect our FSJs daily driving is because we're longer and heavier than most wheeling rigs..worst you're going to notice is chirping and gear chatter, both of which are normal. Rotate your tires more often.

If you're going all out..why not do a disc conversion for the rear? You'll need to monkey your MC a little (reach in the hole and pull out the plug) and perhaps add an variable prop valve. You set them up with GM 1/2 ton calipers and pads to match the front basically. You'll be getting your money out of this upgrade more than a front locker.

Good luck and glad the trip worked out for ya!
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambler68
put the lunchbox in the rear and buy the gnarliest Ujoint you can afford for the driveshaft attaching to it. What brand did you buy for the lunchbox? I have the Aussie one, and it installed easily and has been a wild improvement. You really dont even need a front locker..I'd install the one you have, wheel it, and decide for yourself if another 1k is needed to install a front selectable one..my money will be on NOT needing it...unless you plan on climbing dry waterfalls and whatnot. The reason lockers dont affect our FSJs daily driving is because we're longer and heavier than most wheeling rigs..worst you're going to notice is chirping and gear chatter, both of which are normal. Rotate your tires more often.

If you're going all out..why not do a disc conversion for the rear? You'll need to monkey your MC a little (reach in the hole and pull out the plug) and perhaps add an variable prop valve. You set them up with GM 1/2 ton calipers and pads to match the front basically. You'll be getting your money out of this upgrade more than a front locker.

Good luck and glad the trip worked out for ya!

I figure either way, I can take it back out and swap it or go back to stock or whatv have you, i'll have all the bits and pieces necessary to do that, but I'd like to get the locker right the first time, if it goes in at all.

No real desire to do a disc conversion in the rear, and i dont really feel like I'm going all out, just refurbishing the axles I wish my waggy came with from the factory, with factory performance. I dont have the cash or desire to go crazy, hence not really beefing up or re-gearing or anything.
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The Beast Build Thread:Marns '73 Wagoneer Thread
1973 Wagoneer - 1987 360 w/ factory 4bbl - TH400 - D20 - D30/D44

Last edited by Dr. Marneaus : 02-25-2013 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:04 PM
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starting to price parts.

Is it worth getting ball joints at $30.00 per for professional grade, or is it fine to go with "service grade" type at 10 bucks a pop?

$120 vs $40 is a big difference
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Originally Posted by FSJunkie
Dr. Marneaus is now officially my idol.

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The Beast Build Thread:Marns '73 Wagoneer Thread
1973 Wagoneer - 1987 360 w/ factory 4bbl - TH400 - D20 - D30/D44
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:17 PM
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IMO, that would be $ well spent. Ball joints are kind of important.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuck
IMO, that would be $ well spent. Ball joints are kind of important.

Psh, not like they support the weight of the vehicle or anything.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJunkie
Dr. Marneaus is now officially my idol.

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The Beast Build Thread:Marns '73 Wagoneer Thread
1973 Wagoneer - 1987 360 w/ factory 4bbl - TH400 - D20 - D30/D44
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:56 PM
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the service grade are usually pretty cheap.

these are a spicer part number. i need a set for my J20,and i was gonna call these guys and see if they are indeed Spicers. lemme know if you call them. the price is decent,per side. (2 kits needed.)

http://extremecustomparts.com/i-4940...-scout-ih.html
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:32 PM
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SUBSCRIBED for the ride ... wanna see how this all works out
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