Questions on Bodywork/Painting Cont.

[4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado]

Heres a link to a pic I took of the 69 bird I done. I used the cheapy taiwan quarters(owner supplied) My mig was broke down and out being repaired, but the Arc was handy, so I used it to put both quarters on.

They came out very nice with very little warpage on such thin steel...It just took a little extra grinding.

The reason I didnt glue these was this car has a 750 hp 502 chevy and you should see the quarters flex when he gets all over it...It almost will pull a wheelie from a stop.. And hes still plannin on NOS...This has been the only time I was worried the glue wouldnt work....Hope this link works for you all!

http://groups.msn.com/FullSizeJeepsinColorado/69firebid.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=51

Heres a link showing the same quarter after it was done. It came out very nice!! I thought it was cool showin my Chero in the reflection...lol the Chero is the next victom! heehe!!

http://groups.msn.com/FullSizeJeepsinColorado/69firebid.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=50

[tgreese]

Thanks for your efforts Carey. I haven't read this all through yet (no time) ... I'm looking forward to it though.

best regards Tim

[4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado]

Like I said there Gembox you have your ways, I have mine. Cant ya just leave it alone!

If you seen a glaze outline, you didnt seal it well before you basecoated it...You will always have trouble painting over bondo/glaze without sealing it first.. Thats an elementry mistake Gembox..

Basecoat has some pretty active reducers, and they will never mate well with plastic, You need to create a barrier so the basecoats dont leech, or lift old paint..Just epoxy seal it next time, youll be fine!

The 3M blue or green putty is lacquer putty, it is only meant to be used if your using lacquer or alkaloyd products..Basecoat will never mix with any lacquer product, neither will urethane..So in my book it is a total thing of the past....JUNK YES!! I only use urethanes..

New is not always better, thats why we all own these old ramblers! But when it comes to bodywork and paint....NEW IS BETTER(MUCH!!)

You have read into this somewhere that I said early paint work would blow off goin down the hiway..Well I have never said that...And it generally doesnt, but I've seen it..

But you can compare an old job that was done 20, 30 years ago to a new job today, and todays paints and processes if done right, will outlast the old jobs 2 to 1. I would think even you know that..

The paint work on the average cars have never been beter than they are now..

Even the factory uses ETCH coats, Why would you even question using it...The paint MFR's have worked VERY HARD making a product that trys to compare with factory paintwork...

My Question is why have you become so worked up with this etch thing...Many guys still wont use this stuff, it baffles me..Thats why I have put so much effort into the reasons we need to be using the stuff!!

You know if a guy brought his waggy into your shop and had you restore it and you charge him say 5000.00. He is going to expect a job comparable with the factory, that should last just as long...

I would expect, if I payed 5000.00 for a total complete paint job that with some maintance, I would expect that paint job to last me ten years...The way you do things, the poor guy would be lucky for it to last five years...What would he think of you? We all know that answer..It creates a bad taste in his mouth when he says the word BODYSHOP!! That is one of the things in this business that sucks...If everyone worked together and worked as a team with the MFR's maybe people wouldnt have such a bad attitude towards bodyshops...

For some reason people dont like change. Your a good example of that..In this business I have well learned that we need to be open to change...The technology in this field is awesome! If youll just pay attention...The products we use now save us many hours versus the old..Things are way easier than the used to be, if youll just be open to the wonderful new products that MFR's have spent millions in research for us.

And please start using a mixing ratio to mix your paint. Dont do the old drip test, it just wont work anymore. I know it used to, but why spend money repainting something, and not know exactly how it was mixed...

The R&D departments, chemists, and engineers at the paint companies have spent MANY hours perfecting our products making them very easy to use..Why mess with it, not knowing exactly how it was mixed..

You know if you mix your clear that way, that each paint cup you mix is different, on one panel you could have the wrong mill thickness, or runs because of over reduction. The next may be over hardened and dry, also creating brittlement, and the next could stay soft becuase of not enough hardener..Why mess with it Gembox, Why not just mix everything the same in the ratio that you payed all that money to people making your products...?

Your leech out line on your glaze could very easily come from over reducing your basecoat..

If a paint rep were to ask you the exact mixing ratio that you mixed, you cant answer that..You didnt use a mixing cup with ratio graduation. So how could any paint MFR ever warranty anything you have ever painted?

I feel embaressed that you would even post such a thing..Your the kind that makes us guys trying to be professional in this business cringe...Sorry if I'm harsh...You embaress me!!....And you think your cool....SAD!!...VERY SAD!!! Like I have said...Folks, this is an example of whats in this business..SO SAD!!

[4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado]

Ok, After spending two days with Gembox, I'm now behind...Heres whats next, Lets go ahead and sand and prep the primed hood and get it ready for paint, I'll try to get to that tomorrow..

After that, I will do a post on prepping fiberglass for the gentleman that ask for it..

After that, we will be doing a hood with good paint that is worth leaving. The hood will have a few dents here and there, it has just a couple small hail dings that we will heat out with a torch, and some bad chips on the front that will need stripping, just in the front of the hood.. We will be blending our bodywork and stripped sections into the old paint..Then use epoxy as an etch, then doing blend method priming..

After that, we will fix a rust hole in a tailgate using glue(no welding) and fixing a big dent that will require metal shrinking with a torch..

After that lets fix a rusted flair using a mig welder..Maybe we should replace a rocker, using glue on one welding on the other..

After that maybe we should put Gembox's floors in only using glue, and no welding..I have done this on several rigs and it works awesome and is stronger than the factory..

Maybe after that we should get into the fundamentals of prepping paint, and painting..That will take some time!

I think I will have a post explaining color matching paint so youll all know..Its quite an art!

If anyone has something that you'd like some input on, in my opinion let me know..

If anyone would like to help me with this, please go ahead..

If you want to critique me please post..But why make fun of me like Gembox has..Its just pointless and a waste of time!!

I'm very open to anyone that has another way of doing things. I would think everyone would like to here that..But people are looking for guidence, not flames, I would think..

Bodywork and paint is something any of us can do..

I was 20, I bought my first new pickup in 1985. It was a pertty black Ford Ranger 4x4, and I was so proud!

Well 3 weeks later, there I was sitting in my easy chair after work, in Pueblo Colorado.

I hear what sounds like a baseball hitting my new pu in the driveway. I step outside, and another one hit right beside me...I look down, Its a softball size hail stone, the sun was still shinning, but there was a nasty cloud bank just to the north..Then it started!! It hailed softballs for ten minutes..It not only hurt many guys playing golf, it destroyed my new Ranger, and wasted the house..

Every window was busted out of that little Ranger..I took it in for an estimate, 6500.00 I was shocked!! I only paid 10000.00 for it.. I went home and pondered..I bet I could fix it, I was thinkin...

Since the bank held the note, I couldnt get any money till it was done...So I went and got a high interest loan for 1500.00, and beleive it or not, went to walmart and bought a compressor and spray gun set up...Went to the local pawn shop and bought a DA and some sanding blocks...Then went to the paint store and bought four colors of PPG Delstar enamel, along with primer, bondo, epoxy, and the rest of the materials...

I found a rear ended pu in the junk yard(got lucky) that had a good hood, fenders, grille, and good glass except the back window.. I called a glass company and had them go out and remove the glass for me..

The roof skin was totally wasted, so I took it to the body shop and had them replace the roof skin for me..

I was now out of money, so I went to work..

I went to the local library and checked out every book I could find on bodywork and painting..I spent a week reading em all!!

So I dove in!! I done everything as best I could from the info I had. I went back to the paint store and talked with the manager for 2 hours..He taught me how to paint!! And I done everything just as he told me to..

Well when I was done, I was proud!! Yea the mudd was a little deep in places. But that bank sure signed off that check, and even ask what shop done the work, and complemented my new four color custom paint job..

Well after all my friends seen my cool pu, they wanted all theres done..I told em a case of beer and you buy the materials... I Done many paint jobs, and crash repairs using the electrical pole out back of the garage for a pull post..I checked out those library books several times learning more each time..I would add tools as I went along..I had learned welding in High School, so that was a help...

Well one day, I thought, I sure would like to do this for a living..I took pics of every rig I had done, and with those pics, a bodyshop here in Canon City hired me...The rest is history!!

From there, I painted airplanes for two years. The Wife got transfered to Seattle, Wa. So I went, I just happen to fall into the right group of friends and ended up opening my own race car paint shop..Boy was that fun!! I got to see many cars I painted on NHRA today in th 80's. The Hydro boat shops were just down the street, so I became friends with some of them, and ended up doing lots of odds and end work for them..

We got divorced, and have done body/paint work in Colorado ever since...I'm now 39

I wanted to tell you all this..... Anyone can do body/paint if its in your heart and if you really want to!! I know how hard it was for me to learn. I had to watch many, read and read, and listen to advice from others, and be willing to try everything once... If I can pass on any info..I'll do it!! I enjoy sharing what Ive seen and learned thru the years..

[roadgrime]

hey 4x4 any books u seen recently that you thought were good. I got an OLD school book bout body werk that i have went through but its so outa date its not even funny

[TexasJ10]

Thanks Carey. As always, I anxiously await the next installment.

[4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado]

I dont know of any recent books...Most paint stores put on classes for there customers every now and then..Might ask them about that RG..I still have a few layin around that I have picked up along the way..I'll try and find some and get you that info..

Thanks for hangin with me TexasJ10 thru the gembox ordeal ... I'll get to your question concerning humidity in the next post. Thats a really great question!!

I see good ole Gembox has deleted all but a couple of his posts....What a guy he is!!

Till Later! Carey

[4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado]

TexasJ10, Humidity affects the whole painting process. Basically it slows everything..The more moisture in the air, the longer it takes for solvents to evaporate, thus slowing dry times..You need to be very accurate in the temperature of reducer versus the in the booth/spray area temp. Especially when your under high humidity conditions, such as you see there in SE Texas..

The MFR's make reducers in many temp ranges..For instance fast is 60-70*, medium is 70-80*, slow is 80-90*, and very slow 90-100*. They also make a cold reducer, 50-60*, but its uncommon..And also make an extended heat range reducer that you add so many Ounzes for so many degrees above 100*(it contains a longer lead solvent).

Another gray area/wives tale in our business is that when spraying primer any reducer will do..

Thats not true..But many like to rush the primer...In fact I see many using 70 degree reducer on a 95 degree hot summer day..

This causes, whats called skining off..The primer's surface skins becuase the reducer is drying too fast preventing all the solvents to evaporate fully/completely..In other words, it traps the longer evaporating solvents below the surface of the primer under a fake skin..Youll never see a problem till several months later, or when you first put your new paint job in the sun on a very hot day..

Then the solvents finally leave from either heat, or time, causing your primer to shrink possiblly up to 20%.

Maybe some here have seen the grind or scratch marks in paint after a job cured for a while..

What happened here was the primer shrank into the scratches from skin over..So its VERY important to use the correct reducer versus spray temp...

Reducers contain whats called lead and tail solvents.. The leads evaporate quicker than the tails..

Even gasoline has parts in it, that evaporate quicker than others.

So basically, any solvent we use in any way has parts that evaporate quicker than others..Chemists have found out what solvent to use in a temp range that will Fully evaporate in that temp range..

If your using a cold solvent on a hot day. The primer will appear to be drying very quick, it will flash quick and look like its ready for another coat, so you add another, and continue to add primer coats quickly...

The leads will be evaporating super quick, causing skin over/flash off...Your being fooled here thinking your primer is drying very fast.. Sadly what your doing is Trapping other solvents that never had a chance to evaporate, when they do eventually leave, the primer will shrink taking the place of where the unevaporated solvents were..

And vice versa, if your using hot solents on a cold day, the paint may run off the car before the reducer evaporates..

I'm no chemist, so this is hard to explain for me..So I hope you all caught on here..If not let me know, I'll try to further explain this..

Till Next Time Carey

[TexasJ10]

Gary, This isn't about you and it isn't about the number of cars that anybody has ever worked on. I am open to all input that those with experience can offer. If you have a better way to do it or a different way to do it, post the information for us so we can see the different methods available.

[4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado]

Originally posted by GEMOBX/77/401:
SO I MAKE YOU SAD!..HE,HE..AND YOU MAKE ME LAUGH,..HELL I MAY DEIETE THIS TOO....YOU JUST DON'T LIKE BEEEING>>>>>>> "QUESTIONED".....AND YOU DON'T LIKE THE IDEA THAT I HAVE WORKED ON ABOUT 10 THOUSAND MORE CARS THAN YOU...AND THAT I HAVE DONE EVERYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH BODYWORK....BUT IF I TALKED ALLLLL ABOUT THE CARS I DID BODYWORK ON AND ABOUT RUNNING A SIX MAN 10 CAR BODYSHOP..DODGE DEALERSHIP...AND ALL THE TOTALS I REBUILT...THAT WOULD MAKE ME JUST LIKE YOU!!...BUT I DON'T NEED TOOOOOOOOOO!! I KNOW WHAT I CAN DO!!...SO NO NEED TO CALL ME NAMES!!

LOL GOTCHA!!

You go right ahead and post away there Mr.Quanity

This is from Mr.Quality

I'll take Quality over Quanity any day!!

Carey

[4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado]

I totally agree TexJ...I think we are all thru with Gembox's rants....Lets see the info...

I think maybe I have threatened the bugger...He is kinda known round here as Mr.Bodyman...And a newb has come along and threatened him somehow..

Well sorry Gembox, Like 20-30 guys ask me to do this from emails, more here on this site ask too...This is a VERY cool site...I would feel guilty letting everyone down...

I've said all along these are my experiences...And I enjoy sharing them...You cant become PPG gold certified if you dont know all this stuff...I'm a technical junkie...And live to try new things...I try to approach everything I do in this field in a technical way...Because it really is technical...

I'm hoping he still has it in him to do some rebutting in a technical way, not in a threatening way...But I'm having doubts...

I saw his one post back around the first of the year, sayin this is your one bodywork tip of the year...Cutting a little off the edge of your grinding disc...Shoot I thought, dude, give everyone more than that!! We will be all dead by the time he gives us all his pointers...Carey

[4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado]

Well I see Gembox is still showin his a#$..Aint no help for that buggernutt...

Well on to prepping the primed hood.
I like to let the primer sit for at least a week or two depending on temp..Youll never have a shrinkage problem if youll give the primer time to cure..

If you have a low spot that you dont like, or spot you may have marked as needing attention with your fingertip when priming. I like to take a little 180 grit and rough up that area by hand, maybe going out 3-6inches beyond the low spot, Just rough up the primer a bit, by hand..This will give the putty something to tooth with..It wont feather or stick to unsanded primer..

Then use some two part spot putty on the low.

http://www.autopaintersupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TASI&Category_Code=UCP

Either Half time or Black Ice work very well..Guide coat it after, then Hit it with your 180 on a DA to knock it down a bit then either finish it with a long or short board, or just finish it out with your random orbit long board..Using 180 on any choice.. Heres a link to some hand boards.

http://www.autopaintersupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TASI&Category_Code=3BPSE

Heres a link on the guide coat:

http://www.handsontools.com/store/show_product/?product_id=4270

It is very easy to use and very handy..No need for using the spray can stuff..You can just wipe this on, with no need to do any masking..Awesome product!

We need to remove quite a bit of the primer..I use the primer as a tool to get everything very straight..What I have found to be the best way, is dry sanding with 180 grit on a DA..

About all I have ever used is the brand Hutchins for air sanders, they are very smooth and can easilly be used/held with one hand while sanding..Thats how smooth this tool is..Heres a link to Hutchins sanders...Another tool that you cant really live without is the random orbit long board sander..They are excellent being used in prepping primmer/paint, and finishing any spot putty needed after priming

http://www.hutchinsmfg.com/products/standard.html

The generic DA's arent near as smooth so just be extra careful when your dry sanding the primer, watching that the disc edge is not digging anywhere...Keep the tool as flat as you can..The generics like to jump around alot, but can be used..

Ok once we have everything guide coated, Get a dust mask on and get your DA with 180 grit...Start sanding, you will be sanding quite a bit differently in this stage..I like to concentrate on long strokes, and pretty much stay away from any edges, they break thru easilly..When sanding and you come to a high crown or step in the sheetmetal, for instance the step in the hood, just casually bump those spots with the DA..Dont try to sand them, the edge on the disc will dig into the step..

Youll be seeing the primer powder nicely. Youll want to remove the guide coat and then I like to go beyond that some, working the DA as a hand block in long strokes, in X patterns, and many different directions..A DA used in this fashion will get a panel very straight..It is work though, youll feel it..

This is the way I prepped this car..You can see its very straight..

http://groups.msn.com/FullSizeJeepsinColorado/69firebid.msnw?albumlist=2

Ok at this point blow off the car with your airgun..I like to take some grease and wax remover and coat the panel down with a rag..The grease and wax remover will stay wet for several minutes..Get on a level plane and again check the panel for straightness..If you still see something not to your liking that is very minor, mark that spot with some guide coat..I like to use 180 grit on a longboard to block the area a bit by hand..Again use the grease and wax remover to wet the panel..Remember you can only do very minor straightening here..

Get the panel clean with air gun and reguide coat the whole panel. We will be finishing out the panel by hand with either 3M yellow back 360 or 400..The 3M yellow back wetsanding paper is probably the best in my opinion, but other guys like other products..

I like to use a 3M hand pad. Link:

http://www.autopaintersupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TASI&Product_Code=3551&Category_Code=3BPSE

I like to split my sanding paper in half from the small side..

Then just wrap the paper around the hand block, starting the edge on one side of the block and folding the paper around the block..I love these blocks, they are just right..

Get a squit bottle of water, you can add some car wash soap to slicken up the water, but I never do..I will start sanding in long strokes, going in X patterns and all different directions. I also like to swirl sand also.. Keep your panel wet..I like to sand the primer till all the guide coat is gone, still staying away from edges..I like to do these with a piece of paper folded in the same fasion as I use on the hand block by hand never staying in one direction long..Make sure you go around the outside edges of the hood, there may be a rough line there from the tape used. Get every thing smooth..I like to use the water to wet the panel down at this point checking for straightness..If you still see something, you can use the wetsanding paper on a 4 or 9 inch water sanding block..You can only do minor adjustments here..

In the prep stage really be careful not letting the paper dig into the primer in dry or wet sanding stages..

I have found when I prep my primer this way, since its guide coated and sanded so much, and checked the panel for straightness so much, that you will very rarely miss a small ding..I have won many car shows with this method...It is work though so prepare yourself...I have also found you will get the vehicle very straight versus the amount of time involved..I have seen many guys just dry sand totally or wetsand totally, and either can work..If youll combine the two I feel your getting the best of both worlds..Removing alot of the primer, then getting it very smooth with the wetsanding...

After wetsanding, and the surface is dryed, youll commend yourself, as the surface will be very smooth as a babies butt..

Later, Carey

[ February 28, 2004, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado ]

[roadgrime]

hey 4x4 u got a link for good bondo and glaze?

also i see u say to avoid edges.. is there a seperate step you do for the edges?

[4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado]

Yea RG, guess that is not very clear, about edges. You go ahead and sand to the edges, but you dont stay on them. Stay away from the high edges/high crown body lines...Does that make any sence? The body lines will go thru easilly..But thats ok if you go thru here and there.. You want to keep the body lines sharp, so try not to round them off with the DA..Do the lines by hand, and gently round them off... Link:

http://www.autopaintersupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TASI&Category_Code=UCP

I like base coat clear coat bondo, and halftime glaze...You wont find a better combo than those two...

[TexasJ10]

Gary, You brought up a point I was curious about as well. There must be a much quicker method to use for the primer. A week or two cure period seems extremely long and it seems like rust could start developing in that period. What products do you use?

4X4, do use an inline sander for sanding the primer or the DA. I'm having trouble gettng a good picture on how to get this all smooth and as importantly, without waves and other irregularities that will show under the top coat.

[ March 01, 2004, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: TexasJ10 ]