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Old 04-05-2007, 07:38 PM
scorpio_vette scorpio_vette is offline
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bunch of new to grand waggy questions

ok, so beginning of this week i picked up my first 84 grand wagoneer. (yeah yeah yeah.......pics will come soon as already mentioned in another thread. LOL)

i don't know anything about the grand wagoneers and their drivetrain setups. up until now i've only done TJ and XJ work, and pretty much know them by heart.

so i got a couple questions that maybe you guys can help me with. i did read almost all the threads in the tech, electrical and drivetrain section, but haven't gotten any "simple" answers. (i know there aren't any "simple" answers, but somewhat to the point might be nice)

1) i found out the waggy only has 144HP stock. somehow i thought a V8 should have alot more than that. hell my 4.0L have more than that. what are some basic upgrades i can do to add more power that actually work (exhaust, carb upgrade, cam, etc....)??? like i mentioned, i'm not very familiar with this old iron and have to start learning the tricks for these.

2)what 2wd-4wd transfercase can i swap in that is relatively bolt on??? i like having the 2wd-4hi-n-4lo options.

3)are there any junkyard manual locking hubs that i can put on the front 44, or should i just by an aftermarket setup???

4)is the front D44 vacuum axle similar to the YJ/XJ vacuum D30 axle where the shaft is split into 2 pieces and gets engaged with a shift fork??? if so, can i just pull a 1piece driver side shaft out of something and swap it in like i do on the D30???

4)what is the tow capacity with an 84 grand waggy with a 360???

5)the only problem i saw with the frame was what seems to be the "common" rot by the gas tank shield. if i properly repair that section, would the waggy be strong enough to pull a trailer with an XJ on it, or are the more spots that i should re-enforce???

6)is there anybody in the milwaukee area that knows there way around these waggy engines and is great with carbs??? i don't know anything about carbs, but do believe that some of the driveability issues i'm having are due to a gunked up or out of adjustment carb. maybe one of you guys wouldn't mind helping out and having a few drinks.


i think that's it for right now. i'll post up some more in here if i think of anything else. lol

thanks
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Old 04-05-2007, 08:59 PM
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mdill mdill is offline
 
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1) AMC engine will respond to all the same mods as any other dinasour V8 of the era.

2) Assuming you have a 229 and front disconnect axle (Most common and judging by the next question) You have 2hi, 4hi (unlocked), N, 4lo locked.

3) GM used the same hubs (Pre 1988) on thier 1/2 ton 4x4's, and it is not something you want to do with the the current T-case.

4) I believe a non-dissconnect axle will slide in, but there would be no way to install a inner axle seal, There are weird aftermarket outter axle seals, but I would not trust them due to the lack of a seal surface on axle where it would ride, you would also need to install a spindle bearing.

5) I think the Grand wagoneer was rated up to 5,000 lbs with tow package, 3.31 gears and tranny cooler option

6) No clue.

Mike D.
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Old 04-05-2007, 09:04 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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1.several,like 4 barrel intake/carb.better exhaust,cam....etc.

2.you should have the 229 t-case. 2hi-4hi full time-4lo. shifter down by the front of the drivers seat on the floor,and vacuum switch under dash. good case.

3.you could likely find a set in a yard.

4a.yes,similiar. i believe a one piece axle will work,or you can hose clamp the collar in the locked postion,as well as a few other mods to permanently lock it in.

4b.not sure.

5.yes,you can fix that to be about as strong as new.

6.i'd be glad to help,but i'm on the MN. line.
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Old 04-05-2007, 09:22 PM
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ricbee ricbee is offline
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#1-The HP numbers are kinda low,BUT the torque numbers are NOT,that is more important for this kind of vehical.First upgrade to do is the ignition,replace that puny dizzy cap&wires for the big,2 piece fomoco cap(460 truck cap)and at least 8mm wires&the square TFI syle coil,bosch platinum plugs opened up to.045.That will give a noticable improvement.A free flowing exhaust helps,next step would be a dual plane aftermarket 4 barrel manifold,and carb,then a summit 8600 cam&lifters,and a GOOD timing set,that has the oil passage.
#2 you have an NP229 t-case,it has 2wd 4 hi&4low,but 4 hi has a vicious coupler,kinda like a diff.An NP 208 is a direct bolt in swap,it is a tradional part-time case,you just need a longer rear drive shaft.
#3Any hub for a dana 44 will fit,but DON'T run the 229 in 4hi with the hubs unlocked,you'll burn up the coupler!If you go to the 208,no worries.
1st#4 Yes,that would work,or find another waggy axle,that's NOT an'83or'84,they only used that system then.
2nd#4 not sure of the rated capacity,but it should be fine towing an XJ.
#5 Fix it right,and it should be good to go,there is a repair'kit' available to fix that area.
#6 I'm sure that carb could use a rebuild,it's a pretty simple carb,maybe talk to member Ristow,he is very knowlegable on carbs,and he lives in WI
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  #5  
Old 04-05-2007, 10:08 PM
scorpio_vette scorpio_vette is offline
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Quote:
I believe a non-dissconnect axle will slide in, but there would be no way to install a inner axle seal

why wouldn't there be any way to install a seal??? there has to be a seal on the outside part of the split shaft right now, otherwise the fluid would leak out. so all i technically would have to do is find a seal with the proper outer diameter and the inner diameter to match the 1piece shaft. or am i missing something here???

Quote:
3Any hub for a dana 44 will fit,but DON'T run the 229 in 4hi with the hubs unlocked,you'll burn up the coupler!

i don't understand. which coupler, and why would it burn up???


thanks for helping me with this stuff guys. give it a couple months, i'll i'll know almost as much about these big guys as i do about TJ/XJ's. LOL


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Old 04-05-2007, 11:14 PM
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mdill mdill is offline
 
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The dissconnect axle does have a outer axle bearing seal, but a non-dissconnect axle does not have a bearing or seal there, it has a seal next to the diffy, and no bearing or seal surface on the outer seaction, hence the need to add a spindle bearing to support the shaft (The spindle is the same just yours will not have a bearing, just a little tin piece to keep the spindle seal in place.

If you really want to add hubs and traditional 4wd T-case, the best bet is to find a whole doner front axle with the same gear ratio, and swap in a Jeep 208 T-case.
What you have now is worlds apart better for winter driving, (Put it in part time in october and leave it there untill spring) but is not as tough as a 208.

Mike D.

Last edited by mdill : 04-05-2007 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:51 AM
HeavyHauler HeavyHauler is offline
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Welcome aboard! As to carb, I would clean it first. Any of those spray cleaners/gas additives. If that doesn't help, carb shop/mechanic should be able to adjust it if you don't want to tackle it yourself. Teamgrandwagoneer sells a rebuilt/upgraded carb that another member said solved his drivability problems.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:09 AM
scorpio_vette scorpio_vette is offline
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mmmhhh.....guess i'm gonna have to find myself an exploded diagram of a disconnect front 44 to see what i'm missing. i understand that a non-disconnect has the seal at the diffs.

on the dana 30 disconnect what i did was pull out the 2 piece shaft and the bearing that the outer shaft rides on. then i replaced the outer bearing seal with a seal i matched up at napa to fit the outer diameter, and the new inner diameter and the new 1piece shaft rode just like it would in a non-disconnect axle without any adverse effect. the only difference is that it uses a tiny little bit more gear oil since the seal is further away from the diff. oh well, i'll pull up a parts diagram when i go back to work and see what's going on.


as far as the transfer case, are you saying that the 4hi option is a fulltime option??? similar or the same as the 241 in the XJ's??? i like to keep thinks simple and strong. my philosophy is always, less parts=less stuff to break. lol, so i'll probably look into doing the np208.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:18 AM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
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i think mdill is correct. the seal is in the diff on the dis-connect style,but it is in a different location than a regular axle.if you slide a one piece axle into it,the machined sealing surface on the one piece axle will not be in the correct location for the dis-connect housing.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:21 AM
scorpio_vette scorpio_vette is offline
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well yeah of course. if that's the only thing you guys are worried about, then that's no problem. when i did the conversion on the D30, i just measured out where the seal was going to ride on the 1piece shaft, and then sanded and polished that part of the shaft until it was like glass. haven't had a leak on the D30 yet. i thought you guys meant that there was a major mechanical interference. a seal location isn't really a problem.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:34 AM
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RAMBLINFSJ RAMBLINFSJ is offline
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As for towing, a wagoneer can pull just about anything you need. It's just the rear springs are to soft and will seriously sag when the weight is applied. I have hauled full sized cars on heavy car trailers with my stock wagon. As long as you don't drag the trailer jack off the trailer you're good.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:40 AM
scorpio_vette scorpio_vette is offline
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guess i'll have to keep that in mind and stiffen up the rear. cuz right now i already put my 31's on stock height. it clears fine for driving on the street, but with some weight on it, i could see that being a problem.


if i wanna swap in a Np208, does it have to be a jeep specific 208, or could i use a GM 208 or whoever else used those???
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Old 04-06-2007, 10:41 AM
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J4GRAND J4GRAND is offline
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Quote:
does it have to be a jeep specific 208
For ease of installation you should use a Jeep 208 (tag on back of case will say 208AM) but you will need a longer rear driveshaft. Chevys are usually passenger side drop.
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Old 04-06-2007, 12:30 PM
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Anyone have a picture of a driver's side front axleshaft from a regular axle, I can't find one on google. I seem to remember there being a difference in the diameter of disconnect and non disconnect axles.

I would suggest just replacing the front axle with one from an 80-82 or 85-91 FSJ if you want to run manual hubs and an np208. I plan to replace mine so I can shift on the fly and have less goofy vacuum stuff to worry about. You could also lock it in the connected position instead.
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Old 04-06-2007, 01:31 PM
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shimniok shimniok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_vette
1) i found out the waggy only has 144HP stock.

I wouldn't take those numbers TOO seriously. Look at hp numbers for other years on Wikipedia. Those motors are not known to be different in any way vs. your 84. Does it FEEL like it has enough power?

Torque will be way higher than your 4.0L. But yeah, the 4.0L XJ will probably beat the pants off an FSJ off the line unless it has mods. Hell an XJ beat my 93 SE-R (140hp, 2500# car).

After the standard tune up, I'd start with a freer flowing exhaust, high flow catalytic converter, good muffler, and do the exhaust from AFTER the Y-pipe back unless yours is rotted. I have experienced 3" exhaust on stock motor but that is probably too big, so maybe 2.5" I would expect that'd get you an increase in power you can feel (the 3" did for me but maybe too little low end).

Then ask us again if you still feel like the truck is anemic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_vette

2)what 2wd-4wd transfercase can i swap in that is relatively bolt on??? i like having the 2wd-4hi-n-4lo options.

You should have all that on an 84. 2wd/4wd switch on the dash. 4hi/n/4lo on the lever. An NP208 is a bolt up affair, needs longer driveshaft, is PART TIME unlike your NP229 which is FULL time plus 2wd/4wd so no using on high traction areas.

[quote=scorpio_vette]
3)are there any junkyard manual locking hubs that i can put on the front 44, or should i just by an aftermarket setup???

Yeah, that's where I got mine. I don't know specific years but D44 from Chevy, Ford, etc., should have hubs that will swap over. You don't want locking hubs unless you ditch the NP229 b/c its designed to be full time. Run it with hubs out in 4wd and you could ruin your viscous coupler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_vette
4)is the front D44 vacuum axle similar to the YJ/XJ vacuum D30 axle where the shaft is split into 2 pieces and gets engaged with a shift fork??? if so, can i just pull a 1piece driver side shaft out of something and swap it in like i do on the D30???

Sounds like it. I Have no idea if you can just swap in a different shaft, but any 85+ Grand Wagoneer would work if so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_vette
6)is there anybody in the milwaukee area that knows there way around these waggy engines and is great with carbs??? i don't know anything about carbs, but do believe that some of the driveability issues i'm having are due to a gunked up or out of adjustment carb. maybe one of you guys wouldn't mind helping out and having a few drinks.

What sort of issues. I'm sure we can help even if remotely.

Michael
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Old 04-06-2007, 02:19 PM
scorpio_vette scorpio_vette is offline
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Quote:
What sort of issues. I'm sure we can help even if remotely

if i'm sitting at a stop and then punch it to take off, it stumbles/boggs and almost dies. i have to accelerate slow and steady off of a stop to get going. now if i'm already moving and i stomp on it, it starts accelerating good and steady, but it doesn't have the hard launch that i'm used to from any other vehicle. it's almost like the car has to catch up to what you tell it to do. so i'm thinking it's either a fuel restriction, or carb issues.

as i mentioned before, i don't know anything about carbs. the 2x's that i've had something with a carb, i ended up either replacing the carb with a friends carb, or have somebody else that knows carbs go through it. and that fixed it both times. i've tried playing with a carb once or twice, and the by the time i got done with it, i came to the conclusion that the only thing i can do with a carb is see how far i can throw it. LOL give me fuel injection any day. (yeah i'm already planning a fuel injection upgrade with a fresh motor. but that's a long ways away. money's a bit tight right now. **** jeeps. lol)
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Old 04-06-2007, 04:00 PM
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shimniok shimniok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_vette
if i'm sitting at a stop and then punch it to take off, it stumbles/boggs and almost dies. i have to accelerate slow and steady off of a stop to get going. now if i'm already moving and i stomp on it, it starts accelerating good and steady, but it doesn't have the hard launch that i'm used to from any other vehicle. it's almost like the car has to catch up to what you tell it to do. so i'm thinking it's either a fuel restriction, or carb issues.

There's a few possibilities. A bad accelerator pump will fail to deliver an adequate squirt of gas to overcome the normal leaning out from quickly opening the throttle plates. A bad power valve means it is idling too rich and with the addition of a pump shot from the accelerator pump, will overcome the motor with too rich a mixture. The choke being stuck will do the same thing because it forces the carb to run too rich. A vacuum leak will cause it to run too lean. Sometimes the wrong idle mix can cause problems off the line.

Where I'd start is to see if the accel pump is working. With the vehicle off, and the air cleaner housing off, manually pull back on the throttle at the carb where the throttle cable attaches to open the throttle plates quickly. You should hear (and see if you look down in the venturis) a good stream of fuel being squirted below the venturi boosters. If not, it is an accel pump problem.

You can check to make sure choke plate on top of venturis is open once the vehicle is warmed up. Power valve is easy to test, if you know idle mix is already spot on, if not, I don't see how the test can be conclusive. You can test mixture at idle by using a screwdriver to slowly close off the choke plate (use finger = burn finger with backfire) and if idle drops or it stalls, then you are probably rich (either due to idle mix or power valve). If it goes up, then you are probably too lean due to vac leak or idle mix wrong, or at lean best idle (where you want it). You can find vac leaks by using carb cleaner, starter fluid, etc., to spray around likely spots (carb base, junctions for vacuum lines). Speaking of which it woouldn't hurt to replace all vac lines.

Also... I have found lean die-out off the line acts like the motor is stalling out almost like shutting it off briefly, and it recovers within a second or less if you hold the gas in the same position. I wished I coudl do sound effects here (vr...rrrmmm) While going rich usually seems to bog the motor down and holding the gas down it will slowly crawl up in rpm. (vr-r-r-r-rrrmm)

Michael
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