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  #21  
Old 02-21-2004, 07:23 AM
ctjeepman
 
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Wow-This is great info-thank you
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  #22  
Old 02-22-2004, 09:31 AM
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4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado is offline
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Sorry Gembox this is all out of my head..A DA works great on bondo if its just a small dent. I only use the bondo to fill the major low. Then use two part glaze to do the final trueing/blending. The glaze is finished by hand, with a long board with 80 grit..This is a great new way of finishing your mudd cause the glaze sands very easy and blends better/easier. Maybe you should try it!!

Maybe it sounds like a book cause thats kinda how I'm tryin to write it..I'll take that as a compliment!!

Gembox, look who has the 4000+ posts! I'm doing this cause I had a bunch of guys wanting more detailed info..If they have any questions on anything, I've ask them to post it..I work 12 hrs a day myself, so its hard for me to get the time also.

By the way, If all you have is a stick welder you can pretty easily weld sheetmatal..Just got to use the right settings and only use DC current with 1/16 rod. Maybe you should try it sometime..Only plug welds and overlap welds work, and either of those can get you by..If you only have a few spots and you are just doing your rig and all you have is a stick welder, it will get you by! Carey
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80 Cherokee S W/T 360/727/208 Daily Driver to Work Everyday driver. Really nice original Interior. My own Cool black paint job, with an AMC theme. Custom manual rear window. Painted Razor grille. 4 inch BJ's lift with Rancho shocks, custom fabbed bumpers, steel Levi rally wheels with 32 BFG at's. TFI upgrade, '98 S10 Blazer power steering box.
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  #23  
Old 02-22-2004, 10:26 AM
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4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado is offline
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Ok Onward! We have our hood smoothed out, stripped and both the steel and mudd work is finished in 80 grit. Its time to get some ubdercoats on it..

Any brand your partial to is fine. Every brand has a some cheaper versions of there products..These cheaper poducts are generally used in the Fleet field..

If you are using your rig off road and maybe its just a daily driver the cheaper fleet systems would be just fine.. If you are refinishing a new car or are building a show rig then you'll want to use the more premium products. The premium products are more refined and allow you to put on a little better finish, and can be color sanded and buffed much easier. So that is something to contemplate. The cheaper systems are about half the price of the premium syatems.

If you are just going to do your rig, you may look into the cheaper spray guns. The more $ ones are nice to work with and will put down a little better finish, but there again on a daily driver you really wont see that much difference. I havent used many of the cheaper guns so I cant mention much there...I do know the newer DeVillbis, and Sata guns are really nice, thats what I use..I use the gravity feed models(cup over) If you buy a gun with a 1.5mm fluid tip you can use that gun to spray any product, with some modification here and there. Although Primers need 1.7/1.8 tips and topcoats need 1.4 tips..Like I said we can modify the mix a little to make a 1.5 work, I'll get to that later..

I'd like to mention some safety stuff before we go onward..

I have always used the 3M throw away respirators. You can use the kind where you just buy the mask and then buy replaceable filters also. Its a little work keeping the longer term masks clean, because of all the moisture that buidls up inside them from our breath condenstation. So I like to buy the throw aways so I dont have to clean it as much..The filters are good for about 25 hours or if you are tasting or smelling paint, get a new one. youll get a better seal around the mask if your clean shavin also.

You really should have a paint suit with a hood also. Paint products can be absorbed thru the skin so make sure you protect yourself. You may also look into some disposable gloves too..

I'm going to include some effects or overexposure symtoms so youll know. Paint is pretty nasty to work with. If you feel any of these symptoms coming on get yourself to clean air..I want you all to be able to recognize the symptoms..

The solvents in paint are Organic Solvents. Health hazards with short term overexposure include eye irritation, such as burning or watery eyes, also could be irritation of the nose and throat. Dizziness, headaches, and nausea. Skin problems can be dry, craked irratated skin. Some solvents can enter thru the skin or lungs into the blood and can affect organs such as the kidneys, liver, and central nervous system..

There are also some heavy metals incuded in paint such as lead or cadmium. There are others also..

The aftermarket paint MFR's use Isocyanates to cure most two part products..The iso's make the paint harden..The factory uses mostly heat at up to 350 degrees to cure the paint, so the iso problem only comes in when refinishing..We cant heat our vehicles to 350, it would melt the interiors.

These are the short term effects of iso's. You may have bad coughing spell, dryness of the throat or a burning feeling in the nose, throat or lungs. You may also have an acute asthma attack. If you are exposed to very high levels of iso's you may get chemical bronchitis, fluid in the lungs, flu like symptoms including fever and chills.

If you are feeling ANY of these problems get yourself to clean air quickly. You are not protected enough and before continuing get the problem takin care of. You should be able to use any paint product without any problems if you protect yourself.. Carey
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  #24  
Old 02-22-2004, 11:02 AM
roadgrime roadgrime is offline
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I have done some foot work on some of the products he mentioned above
levineAuto has the SAS tyvek hooded paint suits for 10.99 I'm 5'10" and wear a large.
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/levineau...tyvhoodco.html and hands on tools has kimberly clark suits for 7.95 the standard ups ground got here in 4 days.
http://www.handsontools.com/store/sh...roduct_id=8365

additionally i found the develbiss finishline 3 for 113 at bradys tools
http://bradystools.com/

the masks i also found at handsontools
http://www.handsontools.com/store/li...ategory_id=473 for 17.00 for both the 3m and gerson.
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  #25  
Old 02-22-2004, 12:14 PM
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Since we have so much bare steel showing on the hood we need to create a chemical bond to get the primer to stick..

Primer except for just a few versions have no way of etching itself to bare steel. Primer can only stick well to bondo or old paint..Primer is based on some of the same formulas as the topcoat is.

Even the factory uses an etch coat to get the under/topcaots to stick to the steel its called ecoat(electrostatic coat). In the refinish field we have to spray an etch coat. This can either be epoxy or etch..

If you are just doing one panel at a time you will want to mask off that panel first, on a hood I like to tape around the bottom/inside of the hood. Youll need to tape up the fenders, grill, cowl panel too. Then close the hood carfully watching to make sure your mask isnt touching the hood where you want the paint to be.. Make sure and tape/mask up the jams so they dont become a different color.

Youll need your garage heated to 60 deg. or better and youll need to be able to replace the air in the garage with 60 deg. or better..So if your working in a garage youll need to wait till you have a nice day..The only way to get rid of any overspray is to let the garage vent, or get some sort of exhaust fan..Youll need some doors partially opened to vent out the fumes, and overspray..

You can use either etch or epoxy. I wouldnt say either is better. youll just need to pick one and go with it..They both have good and bad.

Epoxy is a two part product made up mostly of epoxy resins, so its pretty slow drying. It needs at min 60 degrees to cure..its generally mixed in a 2 to 1 ratio with the hardner being the lessor amount..After applying youll need to let it sit for at least an hour till you can coat it with primer..It has a 3 day window before it needs to be sanded. So you can epoxy one day and prime the next without worrying about needing to sand it to get the primer to stick.. It makes more of a glue bond or resin bond more than a chemical bond..It works VERY well as an etching product also..It also has some filling characteristics so you can minus a coat of primer you will be needing..Epoxy has the capability to make a hard barrier to any previous paint. It protects the new paint from counteracting/soak thru, with the old paint. After 2-3 hours you cannot rewet it. The primer reacts with the resins, and thats what make the primer stick to it. Epoxy works best with two medium coats but can be made to work with one heavy coat. I prefer two meduim coats..

The MFR's came out with etch to make things quicker in bodyshops..It makes a chemical bond to the metal. It is also a two part product, it is not a hardened product as it uses acids to bond it with the metal...It smells terrible and will really burn your eyes.. It needs to be recoated in less than 1 hour our youll need to sand it to continue. It can be sprayed in one over medium coat but has no fill characteristics, it drys very thin..It also has no barrier capabilities. Its best only used on big bare steel surfaces. The primer rewets it, thats how it bonds itself to the primer..

They both have there pluses and minuses, many people still use epoxy, the etch is somewhat new..

When we say one full coat, that would be the same as a final/last topcoat. It is more of a full shot with the gun. You go slower, with the fluid volume adjuster opened up more with a little more air pressure, also you will be holding the gun close to the surface. It is more like a flood coat, if that better explains it..Any double coats in a full coat setup will end up as runs, so when using your gun in full coat mode, youll need to really watch and pay attention, because if you double coat anything as your spraying youll end up with runs...This is another of those things that take some practice..

A medium coat is sprayed faster, further away, less pressure with the fluid volume choked down a bit..Most painting except for the final last coat is sprayed in this manner. When priming you will be spraying closer to the full coat mode, as the product is thicker and wont move as easilly..

Maybe I should talk about gun setup....
This will work with any gun..Any HVLP/LVLP gun needs to be held 4-6 inches from the surface, sometimes in full coat mode even closer. The other older type guns will be held 8-12 inches from the surface. On HVLP start around 30 psi at the gun, HVLP's need a guage at the gun, they are very pressure sensitive. Older guns need around 50 psi as a baseline..

On most guns on the handle there are two knobs/adjusters...The top is the fan control. On most HVLP most guys leave them in about 3/4 to 9/10ths mode, sometimes full fan, wide mode..They HVLP's have a tendacy to have a split fan in full fan so watch that. What I'm saying is the fan will not be uniform and you may have more paint being applied to the top and bottom of the fan more than toally even..

The older guns need to be test sprayed but many guys just use them in full fan mode..

The second knob below the fan control is fluid volume..

On any HVLP gun, Screw the fliud volume control knob all the way in to stop...Then back it off 3 and 1/2 turns, this is your baseline sitting. Many topcoats will spray very nice around this setting, give or take 1/2 turn... Primer may be best at 4 to 4 1/2 turns. Any time after using or before using the gun make sure your fluid baseline is 3 and 1/2 you will very quickly learn what products will spray best at each setting...You will learn how to spray VERY quickly...Many guys dont even know where there fluid settings are and get upset when every time they spray its either a dry finish or have runs(they cant find the happy medium).

So here are your baselines a a HVLP/LVLP type gun.
Air pressure 30 psi at the guage on the gun.
Fan control just a notch back from full.
Fluid control 3 1/2 turns.
I will be refering to these baselines many times as each product is just a little different..

On older guns, baselines will be.
50 psi at the gun.
Fan control wide open.
Fluid control 4 turns.

I haven't used the older guns in over ten years, so Ill have to go back in memeory on that and I probably wont be as accurate as I am on HVLP's. They are all I've used since '92..

Most all of our products are designed to be used with HVLP so if you dont have one look into getting one..They are marvelous!!

Well my fingers have about had it for now, so next time we will be applying the etch, We will save the epoxy till we do the hood that we are reusing the old paint..

Carey
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  #26  
Old 02-22-2004, 12:52 PM
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4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado is offline
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I think youd be very well off with that gun, RG, great price also!! Heres a few guns that I own just so you all know..I knew my devilbiss uses alot of CFM but didnt know it needed this much, look at the bottom of the page. 15.5 at 30 psi, you sure need big air for that, Uh? The gun you have in mind there would be perfect for you..I may buy one of those myself, just to try it.
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/levineau...milhvgrav.html

I also have many SATA models. I own this one.

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/levineau...jet20hvgr.html

I also own a Sata 95 with 1.3 and 1.5 tips. I have a Sata 92 with 1.5 and 1.7 tips

I also own two LVLP Geo's 1.5 tips

I see the recommended pressure is 23 psi, Thats more like my Geo's, LVLP, they just keep getting lower and lower..Being that it comes with 1.8 and 1.5 you'd be all set Roadgrime!!
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  #27  
Old 02-24-2004, 12:32 PM
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Ok ready for the etch. It is generally mixed in a 1 to 1 ratio. It is sold as the etch in 1 quart, and the reactive reducer in the other quart. The reducer will make it able to be sprayed and also it will activate the etch.

Once mixed it generally has a pot life(the time it can sit without being used) of around 6 hrs. It goes along way so 2 qts would probably do the whole rig.

The etch is generally green and smells like acid. So youll need your respirater..

Be sure and stir the etch very well before using, the heavy stuff in it likes to settle to the bottom..

I like to use the plastic mixing cups that have a graduated mixing ratio printed on the side, makes mixing easy...

I would mix 8 onces of each, etch and reducer for just a hood...once mixed, get a paint strainer and pour the etch thru it into the paint cup.

Get a tack rag and go over the hood, tack rags are made of cheesecloth and then coated with a resin, they are very sticky and will remove any dust.

I would have gun setting on ar about:
Tip size doesnt matter for etch much, if your set up for priming with a 1.8 tip that will be fine.
20-25 psi at the gun
3 1/4 to 3 1/2 turns for fluid
Fan adjusted to 9/10ths or wide open.

I would do two medium coats if your new at painting..Have your gun about 6 inches from the surface and begin spraying in a 50% overlap method. On the next coat you may trying going the other direction. So if you went side to side on first coat, then maybe do front to back on the second coat. It will cover a bit better that way.

Etch needs little flash time, so you can do the first coat then go right to spraying the second coat..You can spray right over any bondo/muddwork or you can go around those parts as bondo does not really need to be etched, but you can if you want..
It will flash off very quickly(dry)

When your done put any unused in a spare can that you will be using for paint waste.

Get some junk thinner(lacquer thinner) and clean your gun and mixing cup...I like to put 4 ounces into the gun, swish it around and then put that into the mixing cup. It will probably take maybe two, three times to get the gun clean. Spray the thinner thru the gun. Get a parts cleaning brush and clean your paint gun , cup and mixing cup, and pour the waste into your waste can..

In the time it takes you to clean up, you will now be ready for the primer..Etch only has about 45min- 1 hour window before you would need to sand it. But youll need to let it sit for about 15 mins before priming it..So you will want to coat it after 15 mins and before 45 mins..

Next time we will be spraying primer..
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  #28  
Old 02-24-2004, 02:33 PM
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TexasJ10 TexasJ10 is offline
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Will humidity effect these initial coats of etch and primer?
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* 1982 Laredo j-10, 360, 727, in rough shape and in the process of being rebuilt with 401, NV4500, Klune,
. NP205,d60 front, d70 rear, fender work and minimal lift. It will probably take 10 years
* 1973 jcab mounted on 1983 j20 frame. 360/t18/208 d44/d60. Almost completed
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  #29  
Old 02-25-2004, 07:29 AM
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4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado is offline
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You sure are showin us, your stuck in the old ways. This is a good example of how knowone gets along in this business. Everyone does things a bit different and everyone thinks there way is the only way..

Ok the on glaze your speaking of, your right it takes two days to dry and base coat doesnt stick well.That is lacquer putty.

That is something that hasnt been used in 20 years, but they still make it for the old schoolers who wont quit using it...

I'm not speakin of that!! This is two part glazing putty, and if your not usin the stuff your losing yourself money. It will cut your muddwork time in half..Two part glazing putty will holdout better than bondo.

I know youve seen bondo bleedthru(we all have) if you coat your bondo with glazing putty, you will never have bleedthru. Its now a thing of the past..

Another great + is you can feather your glazing putty right into the paint, creating a straighter job. You cant do that with bondo or lacquer putty! Its sounds like you have no idea what I'm talking about so do some homework there Gembox!! Heres a link::

http://www.autopaintersupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TASI&Category_ Code=UCP

Yes thats right, primer doesnt stick to bare metal..What I'm speaking of is chip resistance..Your not going to be able to blow your non ETCHED primer off with your airgun so your right on that accord. But you can do a side by side chip test with primer on bare steel and primer on etched steel. There is a HUGE difference. The primer on bare steel will chip at about a 3 to 1 ratio to the etched.. And the ETCHED version will have much smaller chipping with the same size grit/stone used in the test..

So get off it. Your making a total fool outa yourself...your just showin us you dont use it...I'm sure your work has shown it..

Yea I like to have my main regulator set at 90 psi. Any DA has its own regulator built into the side of it, I would think even you know you dont run a DA at 90 psi. You may have 90 psi available but I would think even you know you have your regulator on the DA set at a controlable speed. I would expect anyone that has the want to do this will figure that out when they start using any tool.. That is a pointless post..Your just pickin on me there!!

The thing is Gembox, there is many ways to skin this cat in your air cleaner..I have spent many years just as you have learning this...

What I'm posting here is what has worked well for me..I've explained this from the start..If you dont want to use glaze putty, or weld with an arc, or even ETCH steel thats great!! And all I said was you CAN weld sheetmetal with an Arc welder if thats all you got, I even said I bet I'll get flamed!! LOL... Well, DONE IT, it works pretty well too!!

But some of us out here dont like to get stuck in the rut..I'm always looking for more advantagous ways to do things with the highest quality, yea it may be cheaper to cut a corner, of skimp on appling a little more elbow grease, but your job will show it, maybe not as it rolls out of the booth, but it sure will 5 years later..

I bet you dont even know that you can install YOUR floors, fix rust outs, or even do whole panel replacements and never pick up a welder!

They now have a glue that has been factory and insurance approved that will glue the panels on. I was going to save this till later when I got into rust repair, but since your so worked up, I though I'd pull your cat tail a little harder..

I have been using this stuff since '98 and never seen a comeback.. Heres a link::

http://www.3m.com/us/auto_marine_aer.../duramix.jhtml

3M has been threatened so much by this product, they recently bought out the Duramix company. LOL....Its now a part of 3M...

We use this on many bed sides, quarter panels, roof/door skins, and installing rustout panels and never picked up a welder..I have used this on anything from a show winning 34 roadster to a super duty ford pick up.

We used this on maybe around a thousand vehicles and seen them comeback after they have been wrecked again..Works just like Duramix says it does..Awesome, the glue is actually stronger than steel..

I cant wait to see your old school opinion on that, Gembox!! I think your kinda comical, and its kinda a fun to row the boat with ya..So you go ahead and flame me!! Doesnt bother me!! I've had to spend many years working with closed minded induviduals such as yourself. And have seen more than one change there old ways after watching us younger guys do twice the work with new high tech products. Thats when us younger guys snicker at ya!!<wink>

If any one is interested I will do a detailed post on that explaining how great this product works, and replacing any kind of panel without a welder... Till Later Carey

[ February 25, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado ]
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  #30  
Old 02-25-2004, 09:52 AM
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Well lets get to the primer!

Now I cant wait to explain how ANYONE can repalce ANY panel without a welder. Yea go ahead and toss your welder! You no longer need it to fix those rusty floors!! LOL
Sorry, but its hard to stop! I ENJOY challenges!!!

So as our ETCH is drying, get every thing cleaned up, I used to go smoke a cig, it was a wonderful between coat timer..

I'm only going to chat about Urethane Primer here. It is so technology superior to Lacquer Primer, its not worth mentioning old lacquer primer.

It seems most brands have there own mixing ratios, some use the primer with just a hardner, others use reducer added to the mix also. If your using a gun with a 1.5mm tip or smaller, I would be sure and get a primer that uses a reducer, hence giving you some viscosity leway..You really need to use a gun with at least a 1.7mm tip if your doing a primer job on the whole rig. If your just doing one panel at a time, youll be fine with your 1.5 tipped gun..The reason you need a bigger tip on a bigger job is the bigger tip will apply more product thus keeping the finish wetter. On smaller pieces, you are able to keep the panel wet, becuase you will be making your next overlap pass quicker..(hope I expalined that plainly, if not post a question)

Go ahead and mix up your primer in your mixing cup to MFR's specs. If your doing a complete with small tip you can add 5% more reducer and add more if need be up to 10%.

If your panel has alot of body work, mix a quart. If your panel has minimal body work, mix 2/3 of a quart..Mix it well in the mixing cup, and get a strainer and pour it into the paint cup. Get your paint suit on, disposable gloves, and resperator on..

Primer with hardners are just as dangerous as the final topcoat of paint is. In fact many primers are more dangerous using iso's in a richer content, to make the molecules go faster to flash the primer quicker. So dont be fooled, primer can put you in the hospital just as easy as any iso product if you dont protect yourself!!

Heres your guns settings::
2.0-2.2mm tip:
30 psi at the gun
full fan
3 1/2 turns fluid

1.7-1.8mm tip:
25 psi at the gun
Full fan or just a little less
4 to 4 1/2 turns fluid

1.3 to 1.5mm tip:
25-30 psi at the gun
anywhere from 3/4 fan to full fan
4 1/2 to 5 turns fluid

Hang you a piece of 18" masking paper on the wall and give the paper a quick shoot of paint from your gun, in these settings.

If you notice a split fan or egg shaped fan, adjust the gun, pressure, fluid, and fan, till you get a nice even fan..Its always good to do a test shot with your gun when it comes to doing any kind of spraying..If youll do this, you will catch any problems before hand...This is something many wont/dont do and the problem ends up in runs or dry spots on the car..Just please do a test shot, and make sure these settings I posted are going to be ok..These setting will get you in the ballpark..

Ok ready to spray! Go ahead and give your mudd work areas a full wet coat, with a 50% overlap(your next spray pass will invade 50% of the last spray pass) This may need adjusting, more overlap, the wetter youll be,(possibly more runs) Less overlap(dryer and rougher finish) 50% is the happy medium to start with...

When spraying your bodywork, go past the area by 6-8 inches. Do all the bodywork youve done..Get back on a level plane and check your body work for straightness.Take a mental note of any thing you dont like..If you see a very slight low anywhere you can do just a few thousandsth of bodywork right here with the primer..

Primer is a tool and can be used that way..But remember, it cant do miracles, but can fill a very slight low. Just a very slight low though!!

Go ahead and let your primer flash off for a few. Come back and do a nice wet coat just where the low is, walk away and let it flash. If you feel the low will not be filled with that 1 coat=1 mill(cig cellophane remember) come back and give it another coat, just where the low spot is..Let it flash...

This time do the whole panel, with a nice wet coat. We wont count the two filler coats you have just applied to the lows, you have two on the body work, and one on the whole panel..Let it flash and give it another coat.. you now have 3 body 2 panel..

This will be your last coat, I like to spray this one a little wetter than the last one..So now you have 4 bodywork, 3 on the steel.. And you could even do a 5th coat if youre worried..

Its ok I will be explaining how to reduce mill thickness and make the primer be used as a tool in later posts.. Most will end up being removed again in the dry sanding process later.. The primer will just end up filling where the panel really needs to be filled.

Get back on the level plane and if you see a spot that will need further work, take your finger and touch the wet primer with a finger tip marking the bad spot so we dont lose it later..Anything that you dont like can be fixed no prob later. Theres a few tricks we can use here also..

Since we are done spraying the primer, go ahead and clean up very throughly. It is best to remove the fluid tip from the gun and get a small brush and clean out the internals. Primer likes to leave a film thats hard to get rid of later..Clean everything well!! Pour any unused in your waste container that you also poured your ETCH and waste thinner into.. Till next time! Carey
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  #31  
Old 02-25-2004, 11:23 AM
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Heres a link to a pic I took of the 69 bird I done. I used the cheapy taiwan quarters(owner supplied) My mig was broke down and out being repaired, but the Arc was handy, so I used it to put both quarters on.

They came out very nice with very little warpage on such thin steel...It just took a little extra grinding.

The reason I didnt glue these was this car has a 750 hp 502 chevy and you should see the quarters flex when he gets all over it...It almost will pull a wheelie from a stop.. And hes still plannin on NOS...This has been the only time I was worried the glue wouldnt work....Hope this link works for you all!

http://groups.msn.com/FullSizeJeepsi...oto&PhotoID=51

Heres a link showing the same quarter after it was done. It came out very nice!! I thought it was cool showin my Chero in the reflection...lol the Chero is the next victom! heehe!!

http://groups.msn.com/FullSizeJeepsi...oto&PhotoID=50
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80 Cherokee S W/T 360/727/208 Daily Driver to Work Everyday driver. Really nice original Interior. My own Cool black paint job, with an AMC theme. Custom manual rear window. Painted Razor grille. 4 inch BJ's lift with Rancho shocks, custom fabbed bumpers, steel Levi rally wheels with 32 BFG at's. TFI upgrade, '98 S10 Blazer power steering box.
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  #32  
Old 02-26-2004, 02:01 AM
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tgreese tgreese is offline
 
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Thanks for your efforts Carey. I haven't read this all through yet (no time) ... I'm looking forward to it though.

best regards Tim
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Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
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  #33  
Old 02-26-2004, 09:51 AM
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4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado is offline
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Like I said there Gembox you have your ways, I have mine. Cant ya just leave it alone!

If you seen a glaze outline, you didnt seal it well before you basecoated it...You will always have trouble painting over bondo/glaze without sealing it first.. Thats an elementry mistake Gembox..

Basecoat has some pretty active reducers, and they will never mate well with plastic, You need to create a barrier so the basecoats dont leech, or lift old paint..Just epoxy seal it next time, youll be fine!

The 3M blue or green putty is lacquer putty, it is only meant to be used if your using lacquer or alkaloyd products..Basecoat will never mix with any lacquer product, neither will urethane..So in my book it is a total thing of the past....JUNK YES!! I only use urethanes..

New is not always better, thats why we all own these old ramblers! But when it comes to bodywork and paint....NEW IS BETTER(MUCH!!)

You have read into this somewhere that I said early paint work would blow off goin down the hiway..Well I have never said that...And it generally doesnt, but I've seen it..

But you can compare an old job that was done 20, 30 years ago to a new job today, and todays paints and processes if done right, will outlast the old jobs 2 to 1. I would think even you know that..

The paint work on the average cars have never been beter than they are now..

Even the factory uses ETCH coats, Why would you even question using it...The paint MFR's have worked VERY HARD making a product that trys to compare with factory paintwork...

My Question is why have you become so worked up with this etch thing...Many guys still wont use this stuff, it baffles me..Thats why I have put so much effort into the reasons we need to be using the stuff!!

You know if a guy brought his waggy into your shop and had you restore it and you charge him say 5000.00. He is going to expect a job comparable with the factory, that should last just as long...

I would expect, if I payed 5000.00 for a total complete paint job that with some maintance, I would expect that paint job to last me ten years...The way you do things, the poor guy would be lucky for it to last five years...What would he think of you? We all know that answer..It creates a bad taste in his mouth when he says the word BODYSHOP!! That is one of the things in this business that sucks...If everyone worked together and worked as a team with the MFR's maybe people wouldnt have such a bad attitude towards bodyshops...

For some reason people dont like change. Your a good example of that..In this business I have well learned that we need to be open to change...The technology in this field is awesome! If youll just pay attention...The products we use now save us many hours versus the old..Things are way easier than the used to be, if youll just be open to the wonderful new products that MFR's have spent millions in research for us.

And please start using a mixing ratio to mix your paint. Dont do the old drip test, it just wont work anymore. I know it used to, but why spend money repainting something, and not know exactly how it was mixed...

The R&D departments, chemists, and engineers at the paint companies have spent MANY hours perfecting our products making them very easy to use..Why mess with it, not knowing exactly how it was mixed..

You know if you mix your clear that way, that each paint cup you mix is different, on one panel you could have the wrong mill thickness, or runs because of over reduction. The next may be over hardened and dry, also creating brittlement, and the next could stay soft becuase of not enough hardener..Why mess with it Gembox, Why not just mix everything the same in the ratio that you payed all that money to people making your products...?

Your leech out line on your glaze could very easily come from over reducing your basecoat..

If a paint rep were to ask you the exact mixing ratio that you mixed, you cant answer that..You didnt use a mixing cup with ratio graduation. So how could any paint MFR ever warranty anything you have ever painted?

I feel embaressed that you would even post such a thing..Your the kind that makes us guys trying to be professional in this business cringe...Sorry if I'm harsh...You embaress me!!....And you think your cool....SAD!!...VERY SAD!!! Like I have said...Folks, this is an example of whats in this business..SO SAD!!
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80 Cherokee S W/T 360/727/208 Daily Driver to Work Everyday driver. Really nice original Interior. My own Cool black paint job, with an AMC theme. Custom manual rear window. Painted Razor grille. 4 inch BJ's lift with Rancho shocks, custom fabbed bumpers, steel Levi rally wheels with 32 BFG at's. TFI upgrade, '98 S10 Blazer power steering box.
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  #34  
Old 02-26-2004, 11:11 AM
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4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado is offline
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Ok, After spending two days with Gembox, I'm now behind...Heres whats next, Lets go ahead and sand and prep the primed hood and get it ready for paint, I'll try to get to that tomorrow..

After that, I will do a post on prepping fiberglass for the gentleman that ask for it..

After that, we will be doing a hood with good paint that is worth leaving. The hood will have a few dents here and there, it has just a couple small hail dings that we will heat out with a torch, and some bad chips on the front that will need stripping, just in the front of the hood.. We will be blending our bodywork and stripped sections into the old paint..Then use epoxy as an etch, then doing blend method priming..

After that, we will fix a rust hole in a tailgate using glue(no welding) and fixing a big dent that will require metal shrinking with a torch..

After that lets fix a rusted flair using a mig welder..Maybe we should replace a rocker, using glue on one welding on the other..

After that maybe we should put Gembox's floors in only using glue, and no welding..I have done this on several rigs and it works awesome and is stronger than the factory..

Maybe after that we should get into the fundamentals of prepping paint, and painting..That will take some time!

I think I will have a post explaining color matching paint so youll all know..Its quite an art!

If anyone has something that you'd like some input on, in my opinion let me know..

If anyone would like to help me with this, please go ahead..

If you want to critique me please post..But why make fun of me like Gembox has..Its just pointless and a waste of time!!

I'm very open to anyone that has another way of doing things. I would think everyone would like to here that..But people are looking for guidence, not flames, I would think..

Bodywork and paint is something any of us can do..

I was 20, I bought my first new pickup in 1985. It was a pertty black Ford Ranger 4x4, and I was so proud!

Well 3 weeks later, there I was sitting in my easy chair after work, in Pueblo Colorado.

I hear what sounds like a baseball hitting my new pu in the driveway. I step outside, and another one hit right beside me...I look down, Its a softball size hail stone, the sun was still shinning, but there was a nasty cloud bank just to the north..Then it started!! It hailed softballs for ten minutes..It not only hurt many guys playing golf, it destroyed my new Ranger, and wasted the house..

Every window was busted out of that little Ranger..I took it in for an estimate, 6500.00 I was shocked!! I only paid 10000.00 for it.. I went home and pondered..I bet I could fix it, I was thinkin...

Since the bank held the note, I couldnt get any money till it was done...So I went and got a high interest loan for 1500.00, and beleive it or not, went to walmart and bought a compressor and spray gun set up...Went to the local pawn shop and bought a DA and some sanding blocks...Then went to the paint store and bought four colors of PPG Delstar enamel, along with primer, bondo, epoxy, and the rest of the materials...

I found a rear ended pu in the junk yard(got lucky) that had a good hood, fenders, grille, and good glass except the back window.. I called a glass company and had them go out and remove the glass for me..

The roof skin was totally wasted, so I took it to the body shop and had them replace the roof skin for me..

I was now out of money, so I went to work..

I went to the local library and checked out every book I could find on bodywork and painting..I spent a week reading em all!!

So I dove in!! I done everything as best I could from the info I had. I went back to the paint store and talked with the manager for 2 hours..He taught me how to paint!! And I done everything just as he told me to..

Well when I was done, I was proud!! Yea the mudd was a little deep in places. But that bank sure signed off that check, and even ask what shop done the work, and complemented my new four color custom paint job..

Well after all my friends seen my cool pu, they wanted all theres done..I told em a case of beer and you buy the materials... I Done many paint jobs, and crash repairs using the electrical pole out back of the garage for a pull post..I checked out those library books several times learning more each time..I would add tools as I went along..I had learned welding in High School, so that was a help...

Well one day, I thought, I sure would like to do this for a living..I took pics of every rig I had done, and with those pics, a bodyshop here in Canon City hired me...The rest is history!!

From there, I painted airplanes for two years. The Wife got transfered to Seattle, Wa. So I went, I just happen to fall into the right group of friends and ended up opening my own race car paint shop..Boy was that fun!! I got to see many cars I painted on NHRA today in th 80's. The Hydro boat shops were just down the street, so I became friends with some of them, and ended up doing lots of odds and end work for them..

We got divorced, and have done body/paint work in Colorado ever since...I'm now 39

I wanted to tell you all this..... Anyone can do body/paint if its in your heart and if you really want to!! I know how hard it was for me to learn. I had to watch many, read and read, and listen to advice from others, and be willing to try everything once... If I can pass on any info..I'll do it!! I enjoy sharing what Ive seen and learned thru the years..
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80 Cherokee S W/T 360/727/208 Daily Driver to Work Everyday driver. Really nice original Interior. My own Cool black paint job, with an AMC theme. Custom manual rear window. Painted Razor grille. 4 inch BJ's lift with Rancho shocks, custom fabbed bumpers, steel Levi rally wheels with 32 BFG at's. TFI upgrade, '98 S10 Blazer power steering box.
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  #35  
Old 02-26-2004, 12:21 PM
roadgrime roadgrime is offline
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hey 4x4 any books u seen recently that you thought were good. I got an OLD school book bout body werk that i have went through but its so outa date its not even funny
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  #36  
Old 02-26-2004, 01:04 PM
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TexasJ10 TexasJ10 is offline
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Thanks Carey. As always, I anxiously await the next installment.
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* 1981 stepside, 360, 727, 208, almost stock daily driver.
* 1982 Laredo j-10, 360, 727, in rough shape and in the process of being rebuilt with 401, NV4500, Klune,
. NP205,d60 front, d70 rear, fender work and minimal lift. It will probably take 10 years
* 1973 jcab mounted on 1983 j20 frame. 360/t18/208 d44/d60. Almost completed
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  #37  
Old 02-26-2004, 02:45 PM
4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado's Avatar
4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado is offline
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I dont know of any recent books...Most paint stores put on classes for there customers every now and then..Might ask them about that RG..I still have a few layin around that I have picked up along the way..I'll try and find some and get you that info..

Thanks for hangin with me TexasJ10 thru the gembox ordeal ... I'll get to your question concerning humidity in the next post. Thats a really great question!!

I see good ole Gembox has deleted all but a couple of his posts....What a guy he is!!

Till Later! Carey
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80 Cherokee S W/T 360/727/208 Daily Driver to Work Everyday driver. Really nice original Interior. My own Cool black paint job, with an AMC theme. Custom manual rear window. Painted Razor grille. 4 inch BJ's lift with Rancho shocks, custom fabbed bumpers, steel Levi rally wheels with 32 BFG at's. TFI upgrade, '98 S10 Blazer power steering box.
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  #38  
Old 02-27-2004, 02:57 PM
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4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado is offline
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TexasJ10, Humidity affects the whole painting process. Basically it slows everything..The more moisture in the air, the longer it takes for solvents to evaporate, thus slowing dry times..You need to be very accurate in the temperature of reducer versus the in the booth/spray area temp. Especially when your under high humidity conditions, such as you see there in SE Texas..

The MFR's make reducers in many temp ranges..For instance fast is 60-70*, medium is 70-80*, slow is 80-90*, and very slow 90-100*. They also make a cold reducer, 50-60*, but its uncommon..And also make an extended heat range reducer that you add so many Ounzes for so many degrees above 100*(it contains a longer lead solvent).

Another gray area/wives tale in our business is that when spraying primer any reducer will do..

Thats not true..But many like to rush the primer...In fact I see many using 70 degree reducer on a 95 degree hot summer day..

This causes, whats called skining off..The primer's surface skins becuase the reducer is drying too fast preventing all the solvents to evaporate fully/completely..In other words, it traps the longer evaporating solvents below the surface of the primer under a fake skin..Youll never see a problem till several months later, or when you first put your new paint job in the sun on a very hot day..

Then the solvents finally leave from either heat, or time, causing your primer to shrink possiblly up to 20%.

Maybe some here have seen the grind or scratch marks in paint after a job cured for a while..

What happened here was the primer shrank into the scratches from skin over..So its VERY important to use the correct reducer versus spray temp...

Reducers contain whats called lead and tail solvents.. The leads evaporate quicker than the tails..

Even gasoline has parts in it, that evaporate quicker than others.

So basically, any solvent we use in any way has parts that evaporate quicker than others..Chemists have found out what solvent to use in a temp range that will Fully evaporate in that temp range..

If your using a cold solvent on a hot day. The primer will appear to be drying very quick, it will flash quick and look like its ready for another coat, so you add another, and continue to add primer coats quickly...

The leads will be evaporating super quick, causing skin over/flash off...Your being fooled here thinking your primer is drying very fast.. Sadly what your doing is Trapping other solvents that never had a chance to evaporate, when they do eventually leave, the primer will shrink taking the place of where the unevaporated solvents were..

And vice versa, if your using hot solents on a cold day, the paint may run off the car before the reducer evaporates..

I'm no chemist, so this is hard to explain for me..So I hope you all caught on here..If not let me know, I'll try to further explain this..

Till Next Time Carey
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80 Cherokee S W/T 360/727/208 Daily Driver to Work Everyday driver. Really nice original Interior. My own Cool black paint job, with an AMC theme. Custom manual rear window. Painted Razor grille. 4 inch BJ's lift with Rancho shocks, custom fabbed bumpers, steel Levi rally wheels with 32 BFG at's. TFI upgrade, '98 S10 Blazer power steering box.
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  #39  
Old 02-27-2004, 05:03 PM
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TexasJ10 TexasJ10 is offline
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Gary, This isn't about you and it isn't about the number of cars that anybody has ever worked on. I am open to all input that those with experience can offer. If you have a better way to do it or a different way to do it, post the information for us so we can see the different methods available.
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* 1981 stepside, 360, 727, 208, almost stock daily driver.
* 1982 Laredo j-10, 360, 727, in rough shape and in the process of being rebuilt with 401, NV4500, Klune,
. NP205,d60 front, d70 rear, fender work and minimal lift. It will probably take 10 years
* 1973 jcab mounted on 1983 j20 frame. 360/t18/208 d44/d60. Almost completed
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  #40  
Old 02-27-2004, 05:09 PM
4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado's Avatar
4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado 4x4n In A Cherokee In Colorado is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by GEMOBX/77/401:
SO I MAKE YOU SAD!..HE,HE..AND YOU MAKE ME LAUGH,..HELL I MAY DEIETE THIS TOO....YOU JUST DON'T LIKE BEEEING>>>>>>> "QUESTIONED".....AND YOU DON'T LIKE THE IDEA THAT I HAVE WORKED ON ABOUT 10 THOUSAND MORE CARS THAN YOU...AND THAT I HAVE DONE EVERYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH BODYWORK....BUT IF I TALKED ALLLLL ABOUT THE CARS I DID BODYWORK ON AND ABOUT RUNNING A SIX MAN 10 CAR BODYSHOP..DODGE DEALERSHIP...AND ALL THE TOTALS I REBUILT...THAT WOULD MAKE ME JUST LIKE YOU!!...BUT I DON'T NEED TOOOOOOOOOO!! I KNOW WHAT I CAN DO!!...SO NO NEED TO CALL ME NAMES!!
LOL GOTCHA!!

You go right ahead and post away there Mr.Quanity

This is from Mr.Quality

I'll take Quality over Quanity any day!!

Carey
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80 Cherokee S W/T 360/727/208 Daily Driver to Work Everyday driver. Really nice original Interior. My own Cool black paint job, with an AMC theme. Custom manual rear window. Painted Razor grille. 4 inch BJ's lift with Rancho shocks, custom fabbed bumpers, steel Levi rally wheels with 32 BFG at's. TFI upgrade, '98 S10 Blazer power steering box.
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