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Old 11-19-2009, 02:50 AM
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Triagulated 4 link setup????

Hey guys I have a 77 j10 Honcho modified has j20 axles(locked front and rear 5:38's) TH 400 fully built with 2000 stall converter and dana 20 twin sticked, All sitting on 38.5 tsl sx swampers. Getting ready to install m715 axles and want to put the rear on a triagulated 4 link with either coils or coilovers. I have read and read and talked and downloaded calculators on the four link systems and I am still lost on all the anti squat and link half lenght of the top and bottom cross and imaginary line cross above the carb/tranny ??? I am a mechanic by trade and have built eveything myself for my jeeps over the years but this has me second guessing if I really want to spend the time on this kind of setup on my rear suspension or just KISS Keep It Simple Stupid(leaf spring)! Some of the guy have just told me to just build it to what I think and leave room for the links to move forward or back and adjustable links. I just need some KISS instructions/advice/help and maybe some pics to hep me get started and pointed in the right direction! Thanks for all your help.
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:53 AM
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Triagulated 4 link????

Sorry can't figure out how to put pics on here or I would have some for you guys to look at. Thanks for the help though!
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  #3  
Old 11-19-2009, 05:15 AM
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Subic Jeep Subic Jeep is offline
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Two options

You got two options...............

1. Search the internet and just do it your way! There is no right way

2. Dont do it.

It took me 15 years to get the rear end on coil springs, I will probably not live long enough to do the front end on coil springs.
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I am in the five bananas category!
Cherokee 1981 officially 1974 huh local irony
Gen 1 GM-SB 350 V8 TBI - TH400 - Klune V - Twin stick NP205 w. Nippon shifter
Dana 60 w. ARB locker, hydraulic assist + GM 14FF w. Detroit locker.4-link rear on LC80 19mm coils
Rancho 5036 Shocks 14 inch travel. 39.5x15.5x15 TSL
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:14 PM
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i've got a couple theorys on this.

1) if you can come up with a setup that has PERFECT numbers it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't fit, or if it hangs down so low it'll get hung up on everything.

2) in most cases, you make some big assumptions in order to figure out your numbers, (Most ppl won't be able to find true COG for instance) so thats just a "good" guess

3) follow general rules of thumb and then see how it performs with the expectation that some modifications might need to be made.


my rules of thumb i used (its been a while, so i don't remember them all)
1) when looking from the side, try to get the links to roughly intersect at the top of the bellhousing
2) within reason, the bigger vertical offset from eachother the better.
3) as much triangulation as possible on both top/bottom. on mine i put the lowers as far out as i could without interfering with brakes/tires and the frame side as close together to still get the nuts on the bolts
4) keep everything tucked up nice under the frame. in my case i did a lot of work to get a flat belly, so i made all the mounts flush with the bottom of the frame.

i bought a lot of brackets from ballistic fab (the "batwing" lower frame mount, i believe the 14 bolt truss, adjustable upper frame mount, a bunch of random tabs. I also used blue torches coil spring mounts that i modified a bit.

basically, just dive into and see where you end up. most people i know that have good performing 4 links are on like the 3rd or 4th iteration of their setup, and they ran numbers before starting.
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  #5  
Old 11-19-2009, 03:40 PM
angus1 angus1 is offline
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I got questions for you first. Is it still street legal? Double or single triangulated 4 link? Why not a 3 link with a panhard? Do you have deep pockets?
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  #6  
Old 11-19-2009, 03:59 PM
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Why M715 axles?

Here is my modified three link for what it's worth http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showp...0&postcount=75 that hasn't been tested yet. If it works right out of the box, great! If not, we'll work on it some more.
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Last edited by krek : 11-19-2009 at 04:05 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-19-2009, 07:52 PM
elbastardo elbastardo is offline
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Krek, It a rotten shame to put a body on top of that work

That is clean
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  #8  
Old 11-19-2009, 08:27 PM
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Subic Jeep Subic Jeep is offline
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Lightbulb Starting point

4-Link Tech - Measurements & Material Selection By Jim Oaks (2007)


http://www.therangerstation.com/Maga..._link_tech.htm

In principle I followed the setup in the pictures 1 -9 in the article.

Lessons learned (81 Cherokee)

1. Lower front cross member should have been 4 inches more to the rear this to have more space for transmission updates I added a Klune V under-drive this pushed the engine very close to the radiator.

Make space for a drive shaft brake if needed.

2. Lower front cross member should be flush to frame.



3. Building 4 links from under the rig with body on, has its pros and cons.
-Pros, well you know where everything is!
-Cons, difficult to work, need good light and good stands.

4. Ditch the fuel tank obvious for a Cherokee.

5. If you are making the brackets yourself get a Plasma Cutter but as there are so many fabricators that make the components for 4 link its probably cheaper to just purchase them. (For me not an option)

6. Lower links need to be stronger to avoid bending. I bent my lower link on first test, so I straightened it out and added a pipe on top. Lets see how holds up.
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Lars

I am in the five bananas category!
Cherokee 1981 officially 1974 huh local irony
Gen 1 GM-SB 350 V8 TBI - TH400 - Klune V - Twin stick NP205 w. Nippon shifter
Dana 60 w. ARB locker, hydraulic assist + GM 14FF w. Detroit locker.4-link rear on LC80 19mm coils
Rancho 5036 Shocks 14 inch travel. 39.5x15.5x15 TSL

Last edited by Subic Jeep : 11-19-2009 at 08:49 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-19-2009, 10:17 PM
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Bolts & Washers

Here is the link 14 bolt end setup



Lessons learned (81 Cherokee)

7. Bolts need to be torqued down tight not to shake loose! I added 10 mm thick washers on each side of rod end bracket washers are welded to bracket.
High tensile 3/4 inch bolts & double nuts.

8. Cut a a spacer of suitable pipe / tube to "C" length, that snuggly fits the bolt dont make it too short so the rod end will not fit between brackets. Use this spacer and bolt when fitting the brackets.



Picture from Ballistic
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/...-schematic.jpg
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Lars

I am in the five bananas category!
Cherokee 1981 officially 1974 huh local irony
Gen 1 GM-SB 350 V8 TBI - TH400 - Klune V - Twin stick NP205 w. Nippon shifter
Dana 60 w. ARB locker, hydraulic assist + GM 14FF w. Detroit locker.4-link rear on LC80 19mm coils
Rancho 5036 Shocks 14 inch travel. 39.5x15.5x15 TSL
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  #10  
Old 11-19-2009, 11:12 PM
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1ton75chero 1ton75chero is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krek
Why M715 axles?

this. i meant to ask this as well. It was my impression that these are towards the bottom of the desirable axle options. weird hard to find brake parts, other non-interchangable parts, and I want to say its a closed knuckle 60 front but i'm not positive on that. plus weird lug pattern, limited gear selection...pretty much overall outdated with little room for updating.

I would suggest a regular old chevy 14 bolt. You can go to a junkyard and pick one up for cheap, throw some ruff stuff disk brake brackets on it and run 1/2 or 3/4 ton chevy disk brakes on them...and find spare parts in literally ANY junkyard anywhere if in the unlikely situation something breaks. Then use a d44 up front till you can find a "cheap" d60 if you need the 1 ton stuff.


as to the others, why do you suggest 3 link with panhard? seems like more work to get everything together without binding. single triangulated 4 link is super simple, double triangulated is only slightly harder. 3 link wishbone is probably the easiest. any of the above will probably work fine in most situations.
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  #11  
Old 11-19-2009, 11:19 PM
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Triagulated 4 link????

Yes the truck is still street legal. 4 link setup is just what I have been fascinated with and have always wanted to do it, but the 3 link that Krek has I have seen those setups and also like that setup to. Very clean setup and made have made me change my mind on the 3 link setup cause that is a very clean,nice and very stout setup. The m715 axles is cause they are 5:87 gears already and dana 60F dana 70R and already have the disc brake conversion all four corners, and just need lockers or a lincon! They are a bit wider than the stock jeep 3/4 ton axles and these axles are matched WMS to WMS front and rear(unlike chevy axles) plus everything on my jeep is all jeep and a little modified jeep parts but all jeep no chevy no ford no other influences. Yes they have the odd size bolt patern but that is not a big deal to me, and also the axles are closed knuckle but the front can be setup as full 35 spline shafts. Maybe not the most wanted axles for rockcrawlin but I have these axles for years and I like to be different, how many jeep honchos are setup fo rockcrawlin/mudding all round 4wheelin on 42's! Thanks for the info, its all great and like the pics. Pics help very much. Keep the questions coming and if you want to see pics of my creation I need help putting the pics on the thread cause I know we all like pics! Thanks so much guys and keep the help coming!

Last edited by honchoj20 : 11-19-2009 at 11:36 PM.
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  #12  
Old 11-20-2009, 02:38 AM
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Subic Jeep Subic Jeep is offline
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Talking More pictures but its a baby jeep

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f37/c...tretch-800818/



Nice welding







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  #13  
Old 11-20-2009, 02:51 AM
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You might need this

3.0" Forged Ultra Duty Ballistic Joints on SALE. $49.99 each. $13 off Regular Price.
SALE ENDS NOV. 20


NEW FORGED VERSION Featuring a massive 1.5" shank
The Massive 3.0" rebuildable Ultra Duty BALLISTIC joint exclusively from Ballistic Fabrication is built to withstand extreme punishment. It's extra large 3/4" bore (bolt hole) is large enough to handle heavy torque, while the huge 3.0" diameter .485" wall (nearly 1/2" thick!) housing accomodates 34 degrees of total misalignment. The giant 2" ball distubutes the forces over a larger surface area and translates into a better ride and longer life as well as superior strength. Every 3.0" Ballistic joint features solid billet Nylatron GS races that won't deform under load and provides a smooth bearing surface for a noise free ride. Fully greasable and rebuildable. All joints include full zinc plating. Sold individually.

Choose from a 1.0" 14 tpi., 1.25 12 tpi stud, or try an industry first, the massive 1.5" - 12tpi stud available in both right or left hand thread.

100% made in the USA!

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Lars

I am in the five bananas category!
Cherokee 1981 officially 1974 huh local irony
Gen 1 GM-SB 350 V8 TBI - TH400 - Klune V - Twin stick NP205 w. Nippon shifter
Dana 60 w. ARB locker, hydraulic assist + GM 14FF w. Detroit locker.4-link rear on LC80 19mm coils
Rancho 5036 Shocks 14 inch travel. 39.5x15.5x15 TSL
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  #14  
Old 11-20-2009, 03:19 AM
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Subic Jeep Subic Jeep is offline
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Lets flip everything



Huh



http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s....php?p=3147480
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Lars

I am in the five bananas category!
Cherokee 1981 officially 1974 huh local irony
Gen 1 GM-SB 350 V8 TBI - TH400 - Klune V - Twin stick NP205 w. Nippon shifter
Dana 60 w. ARB locker, hydraulic assist + GM 14FF w. Detroit locker.4-link rear on LC80 19mm coils
Rancho 5036 Shocks 14 inch travel. 39.5x15.5x15 TSL
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  #15  
Old 11-20-2009, 04:04 PM
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onesunJ10 onesunJ10 is offline
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If you have the fab skills to do it, you should. I'm going to link the front end of my J10 this coming summer.

Stepping out of your comfort zone is how you learn.

This may be a stupid question, but have you looked at some of BillaVista's (Pirate4x4) tech on link material? It doesn't help in the link design but it covers some important aspects.

In terms of general design, it really depends on how much you are willing to cut/move/etc.

If you leave your gas tank, you are going to have to do some funky upper wishbone... like this one that my buddy built...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...3747&highlight=

I'd shoot for a link set up with virtually straight lowers, build beefy and strong and NON adjustable. Then triangulated uppers. So it'd be a true 4 link. This seems to give you the most options and ability to adjust. Keep your COG low and try to avoid steep lowers. Steep lowers will make your rig want to roll and three wheel. Shoot for the flattest lowers you can.

A rear 4 link isn't gonna kill ya. I say dive in. Grab a link calculator, some PVC, a measuring tape, and a pencil and get to work. Make mock links out of the PVC and get all your measurements. Plug them in and see what it pumps out.
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Old 11-20-2009, 11:55 PM
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honchoj20 honchoj20 is offline
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Triagulated 4link????

Gas tank is no a big deal as it is a 33gal in the back of the bed. As far as the cutting part not a problem either, the bed is V shaped in the back 13" on each side. I have no problem cutting to get what I want but still want to keep most of the body sides intacked except for rock rash !!!! I really like the triagulaed wishbone 4 link setup. You guys really ave done nice clean work to your rigs and enjoy the pics they really help. What is the pros and cons between the triagulated 4 link setup and the 4 link wishbone setup? thanks for all the advice and pics, keep it coming!!!
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  #17  
Old 11-23-2009, 10:34 AM
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JeepDude360 JeepDude360 is offline
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Great thread. I am planning on linking the rear of my waggie hopefully over the winter. I am going old school with a quater elpitical. I have a buddy that has this set up, and he has modified it a few times to where it works perfect ( No unwanted axle steering at full drop, no binding ). My buddy recommends trying to have the upper links, and lowers the same length ( this is also a benifit for carring spare parts. ),the seperation of the upper link mounts and lowers as close to the same front and rear attachment ( This way they both move on the same plane ), and mount them far enough ahead to also move in the same plane as the drivline. I have also done a bunch of web searching on the triangulated four link set ups. One site showed a guy that started with a wishbone and got away from it because of axle steer when flexed out. Not to say a properly set up system like that does no work. I think the triangulated is the way to go. It gets confusing. Good luck, and if I get to mine like planning I will post pics. . The Ballistic joints posted here are awsome and are what I want to go with, but if funds are tight some 7/8 Heims are what RuffStuff recomended to me to use. Later.

http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/index.php
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Last edited by JeepDude360 : 11-23-2009 at 10:39 AM.
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2009, 07:07 PM
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Thumbs up 4-Link

FSJ 4-link flex



Quote:
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=20590

There is nearly as many opinions on what's the best suspension setup as there is members on this board. I don't want to argue about what's the best setup, but I'd like to say something about what suspensions is supposed to do.

To make the springs do their best, you'll need the softest spring rate that will hold the weight of the truck without bottoming out. A stiff spring will not be able to move the wheel up and down fast enough to keep the wheel in contact with the ground and the result will be lost traction. Also a stiff spring can't articulate well in an off-road situation. So with this beeing the best, why don't the manufactures use very soft spring on their trucks?
There are several reasons. Stock vehichles are designed to carry various kind off loads, and need a spring rate that's stiff enough to carry the vehichle when it's fully loaded. Also, softer spring rates needs more axle control to avoid excesive body roll when you make a high-speed turn. Which leads to the shoch absorber.

When a spring is compressed and then released (driving over an obstacle) It will take a long time to stop moving, so if your suspension system is just the springs it will undriveable. And using soft springs makes things even worse. Here comes the shock absorber. This is a tube with a piston and a rod in one end filled with oil to dampen the spring movement. A perfect absorber will let the initial spring movement pass and then it will stop the movement when it isn't needed anymore. It has to know what's coming next to do this job perfect. As we all now this isn't possible, so some sort of compromise has to be used. Manufactures do use various kind of internal valving to let the shock move more or less quickly based on the speed and lenght off the movement. If the shock is too stiff it will destroy the advantage of a soft spring rate and if it's to soft it will not do it's job.
There is also several shock that has external adjustment of the valving, so that the stiffnes can be adjusted without changing the shock.

When driving slowly over obstacles, a very soft suspension system will let the wheels articulate and makes sure that you obtain all the available traction. However, if you drive faster you'll need more and faster control over the wheels and axle.

To further complicate things the suspension system also needs to locate the axle...
The perfect located axle will move up and down without any front/rear or rotating movement.
If the suspension system is a leaf spring setup, the springs are used both to locate the axle and let it articulate. This makes a very simple setup, and it works quite well. The leaf springs used in the factory setups are usually very stiff to avoid axle wrap and to locate the axle sideways. If you want to make a softer suspension with lots off articulation using leafs, you'll soon run into axle location problems.
So you'll have to make some sort of axle location rods to keep the truck handling well at speed. Also to avoid driveshaft destroying axle wrap.

If you are using coil springs, 3/4 elliptical, air-bags or any other setup where the spring itself don't locate the axle you have to fabricate some sort of linkage system. The most populare are 3, 4 or 5 link systems.

3-link systems usually are made of two rods on the bottom off the axle and one on the top. This makes a good job locating the axle front/rear, but it don't do anything for the side to side movemenet. I've seen setups that has been called 3-link that has an triangulare upper link that has one mounting point at the axle and one on each frame rail. This isn't a 3-link system, but actually a 4-link system.

4-link systems are made of two rods on the bottom of the axle and two on the top. This won't locate the axle sideway, unless you move the upper (or lower) rod to a central mounting point on the axle or the frame. This is also called a K-link.

5-link systems are usually 4-links with a panhard rod going from one frame rail to the opposite side off the axle. The will make a good job locating the axle sideways.

And then there is the setup that Ford and others uses on their front axle. It has one radius arm on each side of the axle going to the frame together with an panhard rod locating the axle sideways. This are not a true 3-link because the radius arms won't let the axle rotate, so it's more like two arms on either side combined into one.

All of the linkage system above can be used with coils, airbags and 3/4 elliptic.

If done right any kind of suspension setup will be as sturdy as the other. Leafs and brackets for leafs breaks just as easy as coil-spring linkage if it's not doen right.

But, when it comes to designing a good suspension system, you have to make up your mind what you want your FSJ to do.
The best setup for desert racing is not the best for slow speed crawling. And when you hit the highway at 75mph you will need a supension thats firmer than your articulation champ. The best compromise would be a flexible suspension with either coils or leafs with an removeable swaybars and adjustable shocks.

Sorry about the very long post, but suspension design is very complicated, and I haven't even began to talk about steering and suspension geometry )
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Lars

I am in the five bananas category!
Cherokee 1981 officially 1974 huh local irony
Gen 1 GM-SB 350 V8 TBI - TH400 - Klune V - Twin stick NP205 w. Nippon shifter
Dana 60 w. ARB locker, hydraulic assist + GM 14FF w. Detroit locker.4-link rear on LC80 19mm coils
Rancho 5036 Shocks 14 inch travel. 39.5x15.5x15 TSL
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