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  #21  
Old 02-11-2010, 08:59 AM
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Grenadiers Grenadiers is offline
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My wife and I have a variety of vehicles to test these theories! I like the FSJ for hauling us and our two dogs to the market, sightseeing, long-distant travel. I like our diesel F350 4x4 monster for finding more FSJs (has an 18' trailer it likes), driving in deep snow, driving on salty winter roads when the FSJ gets parked. I like to drive our built wrangler on the forest service roads, get it dirty, and to town occasionlly for supplies. It has 4.56 gears and a 3-spd auto, oops, not a fast vehicle. And, we have an extremely boring, but efficient, 2001 Camry. Good gas mileage, 4 door, and we're selling it! Too boring!
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  #22  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:55 AM
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Ostego Ostego is offline
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All my friends and family heckle me because I drive "old vehicles" I tried to explain to them sure it may cost me more in gas...but if something brakes its an easy fix, or if i get in an accident I will most likely be able to drive away from it and not write my vehicles off.
I must admit I enjoy driving my friends 2009 Chevy Silverado HD for its comfort and creature features....but at the end of the day its made of plastic and recycled beer cans and wont pass the test of time as my FSJ has.

But its funny..when we go camping or 4wheeling everyone's game to hop in the 35 year old J20 cause it has never let us down unlike the many many problems we have had with newer vehicles like electrical problems ext. that you generally cannot fix with a tool box in the middle of nowhere while laying in the mud and dirt.

My "Old vehicles"
'76 F150
'74 J20
'85 AMC Eagle Wagon
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  #23  
Old 02-11-2010, 12:16 PM
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Bill J Bill J is offline
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Well, you know how people say, "they don't build them like they used to", well they don't! My 97 Wrangler has 153,000 miles on it, original clutch, I have done brakes, tires, water pump, radiator, exhaust (my fault), power steering pump and a few ABS sensors (again my fault, "improperly installed aftermarket stereo equipment can cause ABS problems" , anyone want a JVC 12 disc changer ($50 plus the ride). My 05 Accord has only had brakes and tires with 113,000 miles.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and you all bring up good arguments for old cars and FSJ's but for everyday use, my two modern vehicles are hands down the best for me!
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  #24  
Old 02-11-2010, 12:30 PM
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Christiansok Christiansok is offline
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While I must agree that the simplicity of older vehicles makes them much easier and cheaper to repair/work on I wouldn't say they have a safety advantage over more modern vehicles.

Driving a big iron behemoth like an FSJ is great in small collisions against smaller lighter cars but that doesn't mean they're safer. I'm sure there are many stories of people rear ending a car, totaling it and only receiving a scratch on their FSJ's bumper but that isn't safety. Newer cars crumple for a reason, to absorb energy in impacts. Although it may drive up costs of repairs in minor collisions it is far safer. I would take a modern car hitting a stationary object (tree, light pole, support, etc) at high speed over an older behemoth any day.

Everyone always says "You can't put a price on saving a human life"...but when people complain and complain about the high repair costs on the newer systems designed to save lives...aren't you putting a price on it?

Just my two cents, I love my FSJ but as a mechanical engineer you've just gotta know things are designed the way they are for a reason.
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  #25  
Old 02-11-2010, 12:43 PM
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asphaltrockdweller asphaltrockdweller is offline
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What happens in the case of an EMP event (or attack)?

My old wagoneer will be running fine, when all these computer controlled vehicles will be dead in their tracks.

If you want to read a great book try "One Second After"

I have a spare module in my waggy all wrapped up!
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  #26  
Old 02-11-2010, 01:44 PM
Peter Matusov Peter Matusov is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asphaltrockdweller
What happens in the case of an EMP event (or attack)?

My old wagoneer will be running fine, when all these computer controlled vehicles will be dead in their tracks.

If you want to read a great book try "One Second After"

I have a spare module in my waggy all wrapped up!
I read the book. There's a lot of BS in it, but it is still somewhat relevant.
You have to have a really old Wagoneer to be running fine, according to this book. Is your spare module wrapped up in copper foil?
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  #27  
Old 02-11-2010, 01:56 PM
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asphaltrockdweller asphaltrockdweller is offline
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I have the module, spare voltage regulator, and a pair of radios in a fairaday cage in the back.

Yeah yeah I know!
I am chicken little.
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  #28  
Old 02-11-2010, 02:08 PM
Peter Matusov Peter Matusov is offline
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You mean Faraday cage? Wonder what it's made of.

You forgot the diode assembly for the alternator. If that fails, everything else has zero value.
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  #29  
Old 02-11-2010, 05:50 PM
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J300Zack J300Zack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christiansok
While I must agree that the simplicity of older vehicles makes them much easier and cheaper to repair/work on I wouldn't say they have a safety advantage over more modern vehicles.

Driving a big iron behemoth like an FSJ is great in small collisions against smaller lighter cars but that doesn't mean they're safer. I'm sure there are many stories of people rear ending a car, totaling it and only receiving a scratch on their FSJ's bumper but that isn't safety. Newer cars crumple for a reason, to absorb energy in impacts. Although it may drive up costs of repairs in minor collisions it is far safer. I would take a modern car hitting a stationary object (tree, light pole, support, etc) at high speed over an older behemoth any day.

Everyone always says "You can't put a price on saving a human life"...but when people complain and complain about the high repair costs on the newer systems designed to save lives...aren't you putting a price on it?

Just my two cents, I love my FSJ but as a mechanical engineer you've just gotta know things are designed the way they are for a reason.

Couldnt agree with you more. The reason for high repair cost is worth it. Things like crumple zones in the sheetmetal and frame. Crumple steering column is a great thing too, that makes the difference of your chest hitting a brick wall or a grass wall, which would you choose. Watch some crash videos of the new cars...its amazing to watch the whole thing just smash up and the cabin stays intact. Side and roof curtain airbags are nice in a rollover, imagine your head hitting the metal door or a high speed pillow. Having said that, I probably would never own anything above a '97. I'm a tech at a Chrysler dealer and see the craziest electrical problems. Every little thing has its own module now-a-days. I don't see a reason why power windows and radio has to have its own control module.
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  #30  
Old 02-11-2010, 07:31 PM
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lost1 lost1 is offline
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I know I had a real eye opener when my accident in '06 happened. I had a mostly stock 2001 XJ, they had a nissan van. I was traveling straight at 35mph (speed limit, thank goodness) and they pulled right out in front of me to cross the road. Like I was a daytime hallucination, or a fart in a hurricane or something. Had no choice but to hit the brakes, let go of the wheel, and t-bone em. I got a clear view of the underside of the van right before my vision was full of airbag... they were still rubber side down when I could see again, but at least a car length out of position from the point of impact.

Now, this was a side impact from an SUV traveling at 35 mph on a brand new (less than a hundred miles on the odometer!!) minivan full of ELDERLY people. The youngest person driving, by a decade, was 59. They actually drove to the nearest driveway and parked, then got out to see if we were okay. (for anyone wondering, yes they were deemed at-fault. Cops told me I'd done everything right)

Everyone walked away unhurt. Their van's side-curtain air bag and cratered-in side panels had prevented any injuries on their part, and the seat pelts and airbags had kept my passengers and I safe. Now, in the wagoneer? I guarantee you that my front-seat passenger would at least have had a nasty case of whiplash, and I probably would have gotten at least a little hurt as well. My kids in the backseat would probably be fine, but let's face it... those disposable cars are designed to save lives. Not to mention that the van would have been hurt waaay more by the Wagoneer then the baby Cherk, larger contact surface or no. Its a shame there's some much computerized junk in the way of things, but what's a life really worth? Truth be told, these FSJs are a safety threat to others on the road, in the event of an accident. (Lord knows I love em anyways)
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  #31  
Old 02-11-2010, 07:49 PM
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Brizio Brizio is offline
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Agree with you guys! Love My FSJ!!!
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  #32  
Old 02-11-2010, 08:31 PM
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gte901m gte901m is offline
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I disagree that older vehicles are safer than new ones. Look up crash test videos on the net. Airbags, crumple zone, etc, do prevent injury.

As far as all the electronic gizmos, they do add to the complexity, and the "average" consumer likes all the gizmos, so that is what automakers want.

With that being said, I still drive my J20 to work everyday, 30 miles each way.
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  #33  
Old 02-11-2010, 09:36 PM
RCB RCB is offline
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The crumple zones and airbags work in many situations and not so well in others.

They are designed to save lives. Airbags are marvelous things and work fantastically Crumple zones are useful up to about 55ish in non dramatic accidents.

Heavy vehicles shine in car to car contact. I saw an old Ford truck involved in a head on with a small car of some fashion (couldn't distinguish the vehicle), where the small car was utterly destroy. The old ford, while not driveable, was intact and the driver alive.

I think the division comes in physics. A crumple zone is absorbing energy, but keeps it mostly in line. Older vehicles will typically jar and shift, trying to find a way around obstructions or launching a stationary vehicle.

An almost perfect comparison is a modern Blazer (or whatever the S-10 Blazer is called) was struck by a semi at 55 while they were slowing to make a turn into their driveway. The semi killed the 2 children sitting in the back seat. In 1964 my grandfather, grandmother and 5 children (my mother amongst them) was struck in exactly the same scenario in a 58 fairlane. All of them survived. While the trunk was obliterated, the rigidity of the frame launched them forward. My uncle who was laying in the rear window did get lacerations from the glass that was flying around, but was blessedly unharmed, traveling into the front seat.

On the flip though, if they had struck a bridge support at 45, I would rather have the airbags.

However, on the topic of electronics, they are great when a vehicle is brand new, but as a vehicle ages they become very problematic. While its a great thought that everyone should just buy new cars, the reality is few people can afford to do so, and as time goes on, fewer will be able to.

These new systems are just plain dangerous. Systems that can prevent you from turning into an occupied lane? Great idea, but I have yet to see the technology which is bug and glitch free.

Myself, old tech makes practical and economic sense.
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  #34  
Old 02-11-2010, 10:24 PM
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gte901m gte901m is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCB
Myself, old tech makes practical and economic sense.

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  #35  
Old 02-11-2010, 10:39 PM
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J300Zack J300Zack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCB
These new systems are just plain dangerous. Systems that can prevent you from turning into an occupied lane? Great idea, but I have yet to see the technology which is bug and glitch free.

I want to see that Volvo city driving system when it takes a crap. Thats the system that brakes for you if you are about to hit the car in front of you. Imagine cruising down the road and your car locks up the brakes because it thinks something is in front of you...interesting!
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'97 Tj 4.6L Stroker, locked, and rock rashed (Current DD)
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'04 CBR 600RR, (Got to drive something fast)
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