1989 Grand Wagoneer timing, fuel, vac issue help

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  • mommiesmilk
    230 Tornado
    • Feb 07, 2018
    • 11

    1989 Grand Wagoneer timing, fuel, vac issue help

    Hello everyone, before I begin i would like to say that I have been digging through the forums about this for a few weeks now and haven't been able to put my finger on this problem. I have recently purchased a 1989 grand wagoneer with the amc 360 in it. Here are a list of repairs the Previous owner has done:
    p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }
    05/07/2007: autozone remanufactured starter
    05/31/2008: autozone duralast gold battery
    07/22/06: napa 18731 rear axle main seal x2, BR10 rear wheel bearing x2, gear oil,
    10/31/07 HL 6671 headlight switch napa
    10/09/08: fuel pump, 7-1806 napa power steering hose, 7-3364 power steering hose.
    11/02/2009: new water pump, tighten steering column
    02/24/2010: new stock muffler and catalytic converter
    08/15/2011: Radiator, A/C service, copmpression test, motocraft ignition coil, valve stem seals, intake manifold set, exhaust pipe flange set and gasket, egr valve gasket, head bolts, carb repair.
    04/03/2012: egr valve, carb choke control switch, oil pan set,
    03/20/2013: magnaflow mffler and tailpipe
    09/21/2013: carb mounting
    08/14/2013: napa tp28sb ignition control module
    09/22/2017 walmart battery
    2013: duralast gold battery, battery hold down kit, cable, terminals
    UNKNOWN DATE INSTALLATION STUFF
    MSD pro billet ready-to-run amc v8 distributor PN: 8523
    Blaster coil
    Powermaster alternator


    whats going on: when I bought it, it didnt run, just turn over. upon looking in the engine compartment I found the coil and dizzy were not wired in right so i replaced that. I also have replaced oil, plugs, oil filter, fuel filter, spark plug cables. The carb tsp solenoid was not hooked up so i fixed that and also replaced vac hoses and repaired a leaky evap canister. i believe it has motocraft 4300/4350? i am unsure because the stamp on the linkage side is worn off.



    those fixes had gotten it to start up and to idle rough.



    I next used a dial back timing light to set the initial timing to 12 degrees btc as per the sticker in the engine compartment. That enabled the engine to idle a lot smoother. I tried to drive it and here is my delimma, it dies when throttle is applied and will not go above 2000 rpm without engine noise, backfiring out of the exhaust and sometimes out of the carb. I played with the timing a bit trying 12, 14 ect all the way to 30 degrees btc for initial timing and it smooths out more the more it is advanced, but still dies under load at higher rpm. I next set my timing light to 34 and raced the engine to engage the mechanical advance and set the timing that way. that was a bit better, but it still hesitates a lot, has excess vibration and dies under load with high rpm unless you baby the throttle really slowly increasing rpm, then it still has a lot of noise.



    I am unsure of what to attempt next maybe my dizzy needs work or another underlying issue is there? please help me out!
    89 GW, amc 360, spring over axle, Rustys 6" lift springs, 6" heavy metal custom lift blocks, shims, Tom Woods custom front and rear drive line, summit racing blueprinted hei distributor, 35" muddin tires, 15.5" wheels, BJ's off road crossover steering, Cut and turned front narrow track dana 44 and a bunch of custom metal fab work.
  • babywag
    out of order
    • Jun 08, 2005
    • 10280

    #2
    Verify TDC #1 is actually correct on harmonic balancer to the timing mark.
    Verify the plug wires are installed correctly? That a few cylinders aren't swapped.

    Backfiring, no power, an noise suggests something is not correct, or that you have a mechanical failure, a worn cam/lifters, bent pushrods, etc.

    EDIT:
    Not sure what you mean by coil & distributor wired incorrectly? But, if for some reason you reversed the 2 distributor pickup wires it'll run like absolute crap.
    Last edited by babywag; 02-23-2018, 12:58 PM.
    Tony
    88 GW, 67 J3000, 07 Magnum SRT8

    Comment

    • kansasboy001
      232 I6
      • Nov 06, 2016
      • 163

      #3
      Not sure how dial back lights work but set timing to 10 degrees with a normal timing light or without dial back. You said you repaired the carb. What was wrong? Did you do a full cleaning and rebuild including power valve. (assuming stock carb).. Also check the timing chain slack. There is an article in the tech library that tells you how to do it without taking the timing cover off. Are your vacuum lines hooked up properly? Refer to vac diagrams on oljeep.com. However as a troubleshooting step do bare minimum vac lines. Cap every port on the manifold and remove lines except the brake Booster, power valve on carb, heater, and pcv. Remove the air pump and hoses. Hook the distributor vac advanced directly to the ported vacuum source on the carburetor. Make sure the Egr valve is holding vacuum with a vac pump. Disconnect it. t will not open if vacuum is not there.. You can get a block off plate cheap on amazon to completely rule it out as a issue. Check the firing order. Make sure the wires aren't crossed. Check the plugs and wires.

      After checking out those things and stripping the vac lines down to the bare minimum required to run (like early 70s cars) and you still have issues I'd say you either have a serious problem with the carb. Cracked manifold or a internal engine problem such as a flat cam or something
      1983 Cherokee Laredo. 360/ 727/ np228/ Junkyard 7427 TBI/ Msd ignition

      Comment

      • nograin
        304 AMC
        • Dec 19, 2000
        • 2280

        #4
        Yes 100% agree with Babywag about checking the polarity.
        Also make sure the choke is fully opening. As soon as it starts, the choke flap should open partially. After it warms it, it should open fully (after you kick the throttle).

        Remove the air cleaner and take a photo of the carb - load it onto imgur or flickr and then copy the bb bulletin board link they give you into the image buttom.

        That MSD distributor is on it now?? Take a picture of that too, along with the wiring to it.

        Its very unlikely to have a factory advance curve in it. You have tools to figure it out. Lets see if its a possible problem or not.
        Take timing measurements from slow idle until it stops climbing. You can do it every couple hundred rpm, or every other degree, whatever is easier.
        (Do this with the vacuum advance disconnected and the vacuum line plugged.) We'll come back to vacuum advance later.

        Oh yes. Take a look at a couple spark plugs and see if they have anything to tell you.

        Reading your list, the purple items suggest some on going problems before you bought it. Water under th ebridge. The ones in red are the only ones that concern us now.

        Originally posted by mommiesmilk
        08/15/2011: Radiator, A/C service, copmpression test, motocraft ignition coil, valve stem seals, intake manifold set, exhaust pipe flange set and gasket, egr valve gasket, head bolts, carb repair.
        04/03/2012: egr valve, carb choke control switch, oil pan set,
        03/20/2013: magnaflow mffler and tailpipe
        09/21/2013: carb mounting
        08/14/2013: napa tp28sb ignition control module
        09/22/2017 walmart battery
        2013: duralast gold battery, battery hold down kit, cable, terminals
        UNKNOWN DATE INSTALLATION STUFF
        MSD pro billet ready-to-run amc v8 distributor PN: 8523
        Blaster coil
        Powermaster alternator


        whats going on: when I bought it, it didnt run, just turn over. upon looking in the engine compartment I found the coil and dizzy were not wired in right so i replaced that. I also have replaced oil, plugs, oil filter, fuel filter, spark plug cables. The carb tsp solenoid was not hooked up so i fixed that and also replaced vac hoses and repaired a leaky evap canister. i believe it has motocraft 4300/4350? i am unsure because the stamp on the linkage side is worn off.


        I next used a dial back timing light to set the initial timing to 12 degrees btc as per the sticker in the engine compartment. That enabled the engine to idle a lot smoother. I tried to drive it and here is my delimma, it dies when throttle is applied and will not go above 2000 rpm without engine noise, backfiring out of the exhaust and sometimes out of the carb.
        '85 Grand Wagoneer
        360 727auto, NP229
        body by beer (PO)
        carries wood inside
        no "wood" outside
        My other car is a fish

        Comment

        • mommiesmilk
          230 Tornado
          • Feb 07, 2018
          • 11

          #5
          hey all, thank you for all the information. I have been doing a lot of reading on the carburetors and I have determined from some receipts I obtained from the PO and I also finnaly found a tiny stamp on the linkage side with a number. It has a rebuilt Autoline C8180 Motorcraft style 2150A carburetor on it.

          Sorry about the carb confusion, when i said i fixed it up, all I did was connect the throttle positioner assembly wire up because it was not hooked up at all, I have not cleaned or adjusted anything else on it other than replace one bad vaccum line.

          this is my first auto with a carb on it, so I am a rookie as far as they go and I am trying to learn as much as I can. I am a little wary, but also willing to try disconnecting all the vaccum lines and plugging them, I would definitely need a guide so I will look into that sight you recommended. it would be nice to clean up the engine compartment, it is quite messy.

          Today I cranked the engine, hooked up the timing light and set the timing to 0 degrees. hand rotated the engine to TDC and then I verified with the harmonic balancer mark and by taking off the dizzy cap to to ensure the rotor is pointing at the #1 wire.

          I next pulled the dizzy, it is the MSD pro-billet style part number 8523. has the 3 wire hook up and grey tach wire so it should eliminate the stock ignition box and run independently. when I have done any of my previous timing adjustments i have taken off the vac advance and plugged it. I contacted MSD and got some info on the dizzy as far as trouble shooting and they gave me install structions and how to determine what advance curve it has by checking the spring and bushing color. after inspecting it i saw that it has the two silver springs on the mech advance and the purple bushing which makes the mechanical total advance equal 19 degrees. the manual says that the vaccum advance has a total of 12 degrees when being activated... I think my vaccum lines may be messed up because the vaccum advance is not hooked up to the ported vac, it is hooked up to manifold pressure and has vaccum at idle.

          As far as how the distributor is wired I have the yellow ignition wire to the blaster coil positive and the ground to the negative battery terminal on the battery. the distributor has 3 wires, orange, red and black. the orange is the negative on the coil, the red goes to the positive on the coil, the black is going to the negative terminal on the battery.

          I am going to re-install the dizzy tomorrow and set the timing with the vac advance plugged. what total timing is good for these engines? i have read 34-40 degrees? if so would I set initial to 14-16 degrees then add the 19 degrees for mechanical advance together to make about 34-35 degrees total timing?

          after inspecting the distributor, I do not think it is faulty, included in my stack of receipts was a vac hose diagram from the haynes manual for common amc v8's. After looking at that and looking at the engine, i think that the PO have have some of them routed wrong. also, i dont know how long it has sat for but, i suspect for maybe 8 months or more maybe even a year after talking to the PO.

          after I get the dizzy back in it tomorrow, should I tackle vac line routing or cleaning carb first? may be a stupid question, but i like to be systematic. If cleaning the carb, should I clean it while mounted in the vehicle? i will check the choke during its first startup tomorrow

          Thank you for the information and the resources, i will read through everything I can tonight and get back with what i have found tomorrow.
          89 GW, amc 360, spring over axle, Rustys 6" lift springs, 6" heavy metal custom lift blocks, shims, Tom Woods custom front and rear drive line, summit racing blueprinted hei distributor, 35" muddin tires, 15.5" wheels, BJ's off road crossover steering, Cut and turned front narrow track dana 44 and a bunch of custom metal fab work.

          Comment

          • nograin
            304 AMC
            • Dec 19, 2000
            • 2280

            #6
            CARB
            That's a stock carb. Maybe. Ford used the same carb but with some variations from the one that came on the Jeeps. Unless it still has the tags on it (obviously yours doesn't), that detail is lost.
            Ristow has a thread on taking apart and cleaning 2150. Search in the Archives. Its got good photos. http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=101921

            Its probly OK. Maybe a little varnish if the fuel sat in it for a year. It there is still 9 month old fuel in the tank, that's a strike against it running well. Worse if its out of season. Winter fuel in summer and summer fuel in winter can be a problem. edit: if the accelerator pumpo check valve distorted, or there's charcoal from your vapor canister - either could cause some of the problems you described in accelleration.

            I did was connect the throttle positioner assembly wire up because it was not hooked up at all, I have not cleaned or adjusted anything else on it other than replace one bad vaccum line.
            What do you mine by throttle positioner wire??
            There's a throttle cable - that connects to the pedal your foot operates.
            There is a 'kickdown' assembly that connects to the transmission - this controls internal pressures so the automatic will shift correctly.
            On the carb itself is a link from the choke and an electric wire to the choke's internal heater. That speeds up choke opening.

            I am a little wary, but also willing to try disconnecting all the vaccum lines and plugging them, I would definitely need a guide so I will look into that sight you recommended. it would be nice to clean up the engine compartment, it is quite messy.
            May not be any need, and as a rookie its hard to recognize everything - especially when some is so buried.

            the MSD pro-billet style part number 8523....should eliminate the stock ignition box and run independently.
            You'll have to make some diagrams if you want to verify the wires were correctly hooked up.

            when I have done any of my previous timing adjustments i have taken off the vac advance and plugged it.
            Correct.

            I contacted MSD and got some info on the dizzy as far as trouble shooting and they gave me install structions and how to determine what advance curve it has by checking the spring and bushing color. after inspecting it i saw that it has the two silver springs on the mech advance and the purple bushing which makes the mechanical total advance equal 19 degrees.
            The target market for that is hot rods. The curve shape is not going to be the same. You'll have to do the best you can to get it close. The numbers are just that. After its on, its best to verify like I wrote before.
            the manual says that the vaccum advance has a total of 12 degrees when being activated... I think my vaccum lines may be messed up because the vaccum advance is not hooked up to the ported vac, it is hooked up to manifold pressure and has vaccum at idle.
            A lot guys do that - they think its the hot ticket. I used to think that to. Some setups it is helpful to add timing at idle with the vacuum advance. AMC used a mixing valve on many (not sure about your year). This provided a little bit more advance as the engine was warming up, then it went to ported unless the engine got too hot, then it went to manifold. That's one of the reasons there's a bunch of vacuum hoses. It changes the timing at idle and off idle based on engine temperatures.

            My inclination would be to attach the hose to the ported source and set the intial at 12 to 14*
            However, when you start tracing the vacuum hose from the distributors vacuum can back, it should go to a temperature control valve. (aka CTO)
            The diagram on the hood sticker is the best. The next best is from the factory service manual. If you don't have either, go to Tom Collins Ol' Jeep website. Many us have provided pictures of diagrams for the various years for him to post there.
            So its your choice. Either hook it up factory, or hook it direct for now. If you go direct, make sure any and all the open hoses are plugged with golf tees or similar. Caps on any and all manifold or ported sources. ( The Carburetor's power valve MUST be connected to a manifold vacuum source.)

            Need to see how the MSD's vac advance compares with factory. It could be adding too much or to little.

            There's probably a photo of the factory advances posted on the web - may be Tom's site,
            Yup. Here you go:

            That's '79 but its probably the same.
            Put initial at 12, then 12+14 = 26* at 4000 rpm. Take a look at whether the two silver spring are giving that slope. Probably need the strongest spings they sell.
            Also the vacuum advance should come in play at much less than 12" and be fully advanced by 12". That will help mpg and mid throttle response.
            Last edited by nograin; 02-24-2018, 07:34 AM.
            '85 Grand Wagoneer
            360 727auto, NP229
            body by beer (PO)
            carries wood inside
            no "wood" outside
            My other car is a fish

            Comment

            • nograin
              304 AMC
              • Dec 19, 2000
              • 2280

              #7
              Front view of a 2150 showing the three vacuum connections.
              E is a ported vacuum source for the Emmissions EGR
              S is another ported vacuum source, but used for the Spark Timing (that is distributor vacuum advance)
              Power Valve requires manifold vacuum to stay closed.



              Driver Side View.
              PCV valve connects by a molded S shaped hose to the elbow - although maybe your year is different.
              EGR TAC Connector is circled.TAC = air temperature valve.
              TAC Temp Sens hose is below the circled EGR TAC Connector. It attaches to the brass temperature switch in the bottom of the air cleaner.
              On Far left, the yellowed plastic can with a bit of foil on it, is the Non-Linear Valve. (NLVR) That's the mixing valve I mentioned in previous post.



              Inside.
              This one shows charcoal collected at bottom.
              Orange is the barbed tip of the accelerator pump check valve.


              Rebuild kits if needed http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showp...05&postcount=6

              Some background on how the 'idle circuit' works. I use quotes because when the throttle is just off idle, such as driving steady at 40 miles per hour, fuel is still coming through the 'idle circuit', mostly discharging through the 'transition' ports.
              '85 Grand Wagoneer
              360 727auto, NP229
              body by beer (PO)
              carries wood inside
              no "wood" outside
              My other car is a fish

              Comment

              • babywag
                out of order
                • Jun 08, 2005
                • 10280

                #8

                Real manual...all the info you'll ever need.
                Including a vacuum diagram, factory ignition curves, carb rebuild, etc.

                I wouldn't be overly concerned with the distributor setup @ this point.
                A factory curve is ~20* mechanical.
                Use the vacuum advance unit, these aren't race cars.
                I've seen factory units add 20*+ vacuum advance in some cases.
                The MSD curve may or may not be optimal, but it should run fine.
                The ONLY difference on the whole ported/manifold is @ idle, once it's off idle vacuum is vacuum they are the same.

                The idle stepper motors are problematic IMHO, I've always just tossed them in the trash, and used the carb idle stop screw instead.

                Bad fuel can cause detonation, poor power, I've had it happen to me.
                However is shouldn't cause backfiring..

                A vacuum leak would cause idling issues, poor idle quality, but not backfiring/noise/no power/etc.

                I would verify the plug wires are installed correctly, it's an easy mistake to swap a couple around. That would cause backfiring, poor running, vibration, etc.

                You're jumping all over the place...keep it simple. Verify things are correct one system @ time.
                Tony
                88 GW, 67 J3000, 07 Magnum SRT8

                Comment

                • nograin
                  304 AMC
                  • Dec 19, 2000
                  • 2280

                  #9
                  I agree, especially the last sentence.
                  (only I've never had prob with the idle stop solenoids. Regardless, that's not your problem. )
                  '85 Grand Wagoneer
                  360 727auto, NP229
                  body by beer (PO)
                  carries wood inside
                  no "wood" outside
                  My other car is a fish

                  Comment

                  • mommiesmilk
                    230 Tornado
                    • Feb 07, 2018
                    • 11

                    #10
                    so i went out there today and put the msd dizzy back in, cranked it up so it idles, set timing to 10 degrees tdc. I next followed your instructions to check the timing while giving throttle in 200 rpm increments. i have found that the mechanical advance is not advancing the timing at all. this is very strange because when i had the dizzy out yesterday, i inspected the mechanical advance components and i could move everything freely by hand, was in good shape no burrs or dings or binding. the screws, washers and everything are tightened to specifications too.

                    so i guess i am in the market for a new distributor. i would like to go hei, but i am concerned over the huge caps on these things fitting with the fuel return and power steering pump right there. what is a good distributor for amc 360 without breaking the bank and eliminating the stock ignition box?

                    thanks everyone
                    89 GW, amc 360, spring over axle, Rustys 6" lift springs, 6" heavy metal custom lift blocks, shims, Tom Woods custom front and rear drive line, summit racing blueprinted hei distributor, 35" muddin tires, 15.5" wheels, BJ's off road crossover steering, Cut and turned front narrow track dana 44 and a bunch of custom metal fab work.

                    Comment

                    • babywag
                      out of order
                      • Jun 08, 2005
                      • 10280

                      #11
                      Originally posted by mommiesmilk
                      so i went out there today and put the msd dizzy back in, cranked it up so it idles, set timing to 10 degrees tdc. I next followed your instructions to check the timing while giving throttle in 200 rpm increments. i have found that the mechanical advance is not advancing the timing at all. this is very strange because when i had the dizzy out yesterday, i inspected the mechanical advance components and i could move everything freely by hand, was in good shape no burrs or dings or binding. the screws, washers and everything are tightened to specifications too.

                      so i guess i am in the market for a new distributor. i would like to go hei, but i am concerned over the huge caps on these things fitting with the fuel return and power steering pump right there. what is a good distributor for amc 360 without breaking the bank and eliminating the stock ignition box?

                      thanks everyone
                      fix the msd! that distributor is $375+ new.
                      an hei would be a big downgrade IMHO
                      read the instructions maybe someone installed something wrong.
                      they can be “locked out” meaning no advance for efi installs
                      Tony
                      88 GW, 67 J3000, 07 Magnum SRT8

                      Comment

                      • nograin
                        304 AMC
                        • Dec 19, 2000
                        • 2280

                        #12
                        Is there anything in the instruction book about locking timing? If so, that may be what someone did.

                        If the Duraspark box is gone, then a stock distributor with a HEI module will work as well or better. The main reason I'm suggesting to go with the HEI module instead of rewiring a Duraspark unit is the HEI controls current to the coil. This means you don't have to use a resistor wire - which may have been removed by the previous owner.

                        Follow the links in this post to see the setup.
                        Most of you know there's a long running debate on the "TFI Upgrade" and how to do it. So I was really intrigued when a guy on a different forum mentioned he was successfully using a "TFI Coil", but had retrofitted coming from the opposite direction. He started with the TFI Coil as stock on his Mustang. He

                        You can use the blaster coil, or a e-core coil as they show in the link.
                        '85 Grand Wagoneer
                        360 727auto, NP229
                        body by beer (PO)
                        carries wood inside
                        no "wood" outside
                        My other car is a fish

                        Comment

                        • babywag
                          out of order
                          • Jun 08, 2005
                          • 10280

                          #13
                          Originally posted by nograin
                          Is there anything in the instruction book about locking timing? If so, that may be what someone did.

                          If the Duraspark box is gone, then a stock distributor with a HEI module will work as well or better. The main reason I'm suggesting to go with the HEI module instead of rewiring a Duraspark unit is the HEI controls current to the coil. This means you don't have to use a resistor wire - which may have been removed by the previous owner.

                          Follow the links in this post to see the setup.
                          Most of you know there's a long running debate on the "TFI Upgrade" and how to do it. So I was really intrigued when a guy on a different forum mentioned he was successfully using a "TFI Coil", but had retrofitted coming from the opposite direction. He started with the TFI Coil as stock on his Mustang. He

                          You can use the blaster coil, or a e-core coil as they show in the link.
                          The MSD has a built in module if 8523.
                          Tony
                          88 GW, 67 J3000, 07 Magnum SRT8

                          Comment

                          • nograin
                            304 AMC
                            • Dec 19, 2000
                            • 2280

                            #14
                            Originally posted by babywag
                            The MSD has a built in module if 8523.
                            I got that. My suggestion for HEI module was only if he couldn't get the MSD to work and was going to a stock distributor.
                            If it has a locked timing setting as you posted then that's the first thing to check. (I didn't see your post until after I posted)
                            '85 Grand Wagoneer
                            360 727auto, NP229
                            body by beer (PO)
                            carries wood inside
                            no "wood" outside
                            My other car is a fish

                            Comment

                            • mommiesmilk
                              230 Tornado
                              • Feb 07, 2018
                              • 11

                              #15
                              Update. I have a new distributor, I purchased the summit racing HEI. it has mixed reviews but I am on a tight budget here. I tried to stab it in there but the shaft seems to be too large to fit comfortably in the hole.... anyone else run into this? also i looked down into the engine with my light and noticed the camshaft distributor drive gear is VERY chewed up. looks like someone tried to whittle it with a knife. I bought a matched set of replacement gears with good reviews off of summit racing for 30 dollars. would a chewed up gear that is most likely binding with the distributor cause starter lag? I also bought a engine seal kit. I think I am going to start with the front of the engine and go through it replacing everything as needed while installing the gears. after doing some reading about other amc engines, i have taken that these parts may become oil starved during normal operation, is this a true thing or not? if so, how can I ensure the parts are getting enough oil without doing a lot of modifications?

                              thanks
                              89 GW, amc 360, spring over axle, Rustys 6" lift springs, 6" heavy metal custom lift blocks, shims, Tom Woods custom front and rear drive line, summit racing blueprinted hei distributor, 35" muddin tires, 15.5" wheels, BJ's off road crossover steering, Cut and turned front narrow track dana 44 and a bunch of custom metal fab work.

                              Comment

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