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  #41  
Old 07-24-2009, 05:55 AM
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scotty1998 scotty1998 is offline
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I should also mention that I know for a fact that Carquest carries Standard Motor Products. Napa may too you'd have to check.
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  #42  
Old 07-26-2009, 05:10 PM
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FSK1460 FSK1460 is offline
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Well I got my CP1010 vapor canister in from RockAuto.com and found the picture they had on their website for this model was for a different model canister. So the CP1010 is not a direct replacement like I thought.

However I think I can get it to work, but there are a few differences. (Sorry my camera is inop for the moment otherwise I'd post some pics). It has four ports like the original plus an air vent/breather port on top instead of thru the bottom. But one thing that's different is the bowl vent and purge/pvc ports are in opposite positions. Which means the purge signal (top port with the cap) activates the bowl vent and not the purge/pvc line.

Also, on this model when vacuum is applied to the purge signal port, it shuts off the flow to the port below it. On the original it opens it up which is just the opposite.

According to the FSM, when the dual CTO switch reaches around 125F, it opens and allows vacuum to pass thru the purge signal thereby allowing vacuum from the pcv to the purge port on the canister.

With the way the CP1010 model is, if I connect it up as labled, my purge/pvc will always be on, and the bowl vent port will only be on when the engine's still cold. Which I don't think is that big a deal.

Sorry for the long post, without pictures its harder to explain. I'll try and mess around with it tomorrow and see if I can't make sense of it.
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1990 GW: Borla Turbo XL muffler, MSD 6A, Blaster Coil
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  #43  
Old 07-26-2009, 06:37 PM
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skinnyD skinnyD is offline
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I just bought the CP1019 canister. Ill let you know if its a direct swap-in or not. Sorry to hear about the mix up FSK1460. Let us know how it works out
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  #44  
Old 07-28-2009, 06:07 AM
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FSK1460 FSK1460 is offline
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Well after playing around with this new charcoal canister, I think I figured out how it works. The CP1010 model basically has a built-in bowl vent solenoid switch, which explains why the "bowl vent" port is triggered by the purge sig. (Sorry still don't have pics yet).

On our engines, the bowl vent solenoid is closed when the engine is running, and open when its off so as to allow fuel vapors from the carb to enter into the canister.

On the CP1010 canister, the bowl vent port is open when the engine is off, or not warmed up. Once the engine temp hits 125F, the Dual CTO switch opens and allows vacuum to the purge sig port on the canister. This internally shuts off the vacuum for the bowl vent port. With this model canister, you can eliminate your bowl vent solenoid, which on most of these vechicles is already broken.

The tradeoff is, and I'm not sure if its an issue or not, is the purge port has full vacuum applied all the time. Whereas on the original canister, its "metered" by the ported vacuum signal. The more engine RPM's the higher vacuum going thru the "purge signal port" which in turn regulates the vacuum flow of the purge port. I've attached the vac diagram and colored in the lines for the canister (original one). Although with MicroSoft Paint utility, I'm not sure if the notes at the bottom are readable.

Since I have an Edel 1406 which doesn't have the bowl vent on the carb, I'm thinking I could have gotten by with a three port canister. What I did on this one, was to remove the hose from the vapor separator going to the bowl vent, and capping it off at the separator. And left the second port on the vapor separator still tied into the PCV line. Incidently, the vacuum going thru the separator only draws 4 inches of vacuum while the other line from the PVC draws 19 inches.

Since my purge line is no longer metered, I probably could have left the bowl vent line and the purge signal line off. Hope this makes sense. I'll post some pics when I get my camera going.


http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/l...c_diagram1.jpg
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1990 GW: Borla Turbo XL muffler, MSD 6A, Blaster Coil
Rebuilt 360 with RV cam. Edelbrock 1406 and Performer Intake
TH727, NP229, 3.73's with 31' BFG's. BJ's 4" lift with Rancho 9000's
BJ's Aluminum radiator
Black with Burgandy interior.
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  #45  
Old 08-02-2009, 01:48 PM
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FSK1460 FSK1460 is offline
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Well I got my camera working and took some pictures finally.

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/l...afilter=images

On the canister, I went ahead and capped the purge signal (top port on cap) and also capped the bowl vent port since my carb doesn't have one. (Of course I plugged the lines going to them).

I left the hose from the fuel tank connected, and used one of the two vacuum sources from the pvc. The one that goes thru the vapor separator was only drawing about 4 inches of vacuum while the other straight thru line drew a full 19 to 20 inches.

Wasn't sure how much vacuum it really needs to keep the fuel tank vented properly, so I used the vacuum coming from the vapor separator (4 inches) and capped off the other line at the T from the pvc. So far it is running great, better than it ever has. Seems to have more power and starts a lot easier now. Used a tank of gas and averaged about 11.8 mpg driving hiway around 65-70 mph. Thats with 31" tires and 3.73 gears.

I did have to readjust my idle mixure a bit to comensate for the change in rpms. Going to try and run it with the other vacuum line (19 inches) to see if it runs any better. I'll post my results.
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1990 GW: Borla Turbo XL muffler, MSD 6A, Blaster Coil
Rebuilt 360 with RV cam. Edelbrock 1406 and Performer Intake
TH727, NP229, 3.73's with 31' BFG's. BJ's 4" lift with Rancho 9000's
BJ's Aluminum radiator
Black with Burgandy interior.
Tulsa, OK
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  #46  
Old 08-05-2009, 02:49 AM
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After playing around with this thing, it seems to run the best with the restrictive vacuum going thru the vapor separator connected up, and leaving off the other line that's T'ed into the pcv line. So the only other line connected to my canister is the fuel tank line.

Thanks Scotty1998 for staring up this thread. I probably wouldn't have took the time to look into all this otherwise. Plugging up this vacuum leak has sure made a big difference with my rig. Hope others have the same luck.
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1990 GW: Borla Turbo XL muffler, MSD 6A, Blaster Coil
Rebuilt 360 with RV cam. Edelbrock 1406 and Performer Intake
TH727, NP229, 3.73's with 31' BFG's. BJ's 4" lift with Rancho 9000's
BJ's Aluminum radiator
Black with Burgandy interior.
Tulsa, OK
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  #47  
Old 10-23-2009, 05:58 PM
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GWDriver GWDriver is offline
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So we really SHOULD use a 'vapor separator'. I can live with that............. One question...........Where do I get one. They seem to be nonexistant. Even my '84 GW doesn't have one. This whole series of vapor cannister articles and write ups have been excellent. Thanks alot.

Oh yeah, again, where do I find the separator?
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  #48  
Old 10-23-2009, 06:40 PM
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turtlejoe turtlejoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSK1460
A piece of plastic somehow got lodged up in there. This is what was causing the "whooshing" sound when I took the gas cap off, which also I believe was causing the running out of gas like symtoms when my tank was low, but not empty.

Was the plastic white? Did it have a small diameter hole through the center of it? I have one too, and my presumption is that it's there to meter the rate at which vapor can reach the canister - in all likelihood, it's an orifice. I do believe it was an original "feature" on my '78 - can't speak to what years had or didn't have it.

This is a great thread, and thanks to Scotty1998 and all y'all for adding to our collective wisdom.
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  #49  
Old 10-23-2009, 08:28 PM
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FSK1460 FSK1460 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlejoe
Was the plastic white? Did it have a small diameter hole through the center of it? I have one too, and my presumption is that it's there to meter the rate at which vapor can reach the canister - in all likelihood, it's an orifice. I do believe it was an original "feature" on my '78 - can't speak to what years had or didn't have it.

This is a great thread, and thanks to Scotty1998 and all y'all for adding to our collective wisdom.


I believe it was a white plastic piece just as you described. It definitely made a difference after I removed it. Its possible the replacement hose I put on was a smaller diameter and the "orifice" restricted it even further.
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1990 GW: Borla Turbo XL muffler, MSD 6A, Blaster Coil
Rebuilt 360 with RV cam. Edelbrock 1406 and Performer Intake
TH727, NP229, 3.73's with 31' BFG's. BJ's 4" lift with Rancho 9000's
BJ's Aluminum radiator
Black with Burgandy interior.
Tulsa, OK
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  #50  
Old 10-23-2009, 08:50 PM
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Allen78J20 Allen78J20 is offline
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Scotty did it fix the problem on your waggy?
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  #51  
Old 10-23-2009, 08:58 PM
FSJK FSJK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWDriver
So we really SHOULD use a 'vapor separator'. I can live with that............. One question...........Where do I get one. They seem to be nonexistant. Even my '84 GW doesn't have one. This whole series of vapor cannister articles and write ups have been excellent. Thanks alot.

Oh yeah, again, where do I find the separator?

I was at autozone the other day and grabbed a fuel filter that was set up the exact same way as the stock 'vapor separator'. It was just on a wall in a section with 15 or so different fuel filters.

I should have bought a second, and cut it open, and cut my old one open to compare the internals...but I didn't and just swapped the new one in.
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  #52  
Old 10-25-2009, 08:02 AM
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scotty1998 scotty1998 is offline
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After I replaced the canister as per the write up, my vacuum became absolutely steady. All of my surging stopped and all inexplicable weird idling stopped.
You can get replacement cans from RockAuto or NAPA and I'm sure many others. Just used the model #'s provided in the writeup.
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  #53  
Old 11-03-2009, 09:47 AM
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danryanm danryanm is offline
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Does anybody have a photo of the electric solonoid for the carb vent? One of the two wires on mine is just hanging and I can't fathom where it should go.
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  #54  
Old 01-13-2010, 09:16 AM
twmattox twmattox is offline
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I just want to make sure I fully understand something about these canisters.

The line going to the PCV will not pull vapor until the purge signal (ported vacuum) is activated, correct??
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  #55  
Old 01-26-2010, 06:30 AM
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scotty1998 scotty1998 is offline
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Correct. In its passive state, the purge valve is held over the PCV port with spring pressure. You need vacuum to draw it up to allow vacuum from the intake to pull it out of the can.

Here how it should work.

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/q...orCanister.jpg
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Last edited by scotty1998 : 01-26-2010 at 07:09 AM.
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  #56  
Old 01-26-2010, 01:43 PM
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Lambrewski Lambrewski is offline
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If that diagram is correct - is it fair to say the tank and the carb vent can go on either side?

My 1406 doesn't have a carb vent, so just cap it off? Looks like it should work fine.

Thanks
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  #57  
Old 01-26-2010, 01:48 PM
twmattox twmattox is offline
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Check out the post by GWChris in this thread:
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showt...light=canister

There are a number of them from him talking about taking one of these apart and them having 2 purge stages: an idle stage and an open throttle stage...

Just trying to figure this thing out...
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  #58  
Old 01-26-2010, 02:23 PM
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scotty1998 scotty1998 is offline
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Since GWChris has taken one apart and I haven't, I can only assume that he has a bead on the true function of these things behind the scenes. I have no problem being corrected on this issue and would also like to understand the science behind this a little better.

It is my understanding that the carb and fuel tank are passive feeds that when the engine is off, atmospheric pressure lets their vapor be absorbed into the carbon in the can. Then, when the rig is run, ported vac signal does nothing more than pull up on the diaphragm to draw those vapors into the PCV system.

If this is truly a 2-stage system and that there is a low level purge at idle. Then the interior of the can must also have a check valve in it or something similar to block off the carb feed when the engine is running. A diagram of the inner workings would be very helpful.

I'm going to PM GW Chris on this one.
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Last edited by scotty1998 : 01-26-2010 at 02:33 PM.
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  #59  
Old 01-26-2010, 03:50 PM
twmattox twmattox is offline
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When all else fails... Read the Manual. I had a bit of free time and read the Factory Service Manual for 1982 (not a lot has changed on these)...

"Vapor Canister
This component is used on all vehicles. The canister is filled with granules of activated charcoal. Vapor entering the canister is absorbed by the granules. The canister has a staged dual purge feature. Two inlets are provided, one for fuel tank vapor and one for carburetor bowl vapor. The outlet is connected to an intake manifold vacuum source. The fourth nipple is connected to the carburetor spark port (ported vacuum).

When the engine is operating, fresh air enters through the inlet filter in the bottom of the canister and purges the stored vapor. When the ported vacuum reaches 12 in. Hg (41 kPa), the secondary purge circuit is opened and the canister is purged at a much higher rate."
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  #60  
Old 01-31-2010, 09:49 PM
twmattox twmattox is offline
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So, I had a couple canisters sitting around and decided to do some investigation. It appears that the purge line does have a metered air bleed. In canisters for older vehicles that do not have the vapor separator (the fuel filter looking thing) the initial (small) purge is in charcoal canister. In newer vehicles with the vapor separator, the initial purge is in the vapor separator (the small line itself). Make no doubt about it, these vapor separators are NOT simply fuel filters. The small line is a metered air bleed...your carburetor is jetted for this and if you use a fuel filter instead...you WILL be running lean. Ask me how I know!

So, on newer canisters, if you place a vacuum on the purge signal in the charcoal canister...it should hold vacuum AND the purge line should not hold vacuum until the purge signal receives vacuum. On older canisters, the purge signal should hold vacuum. However, the purge line will pull a small vacuum and when the purge signal receives vacuum it will purge a greater deal.

There is one more thing. The top of the canisters is a grate like plastic mesh. The charcoal is kept in the cansiter by a sponge looking material. That sponge material on all of mine was deteriorating. So much so that if I turned my canister upside down...I could shake the charcoal out of it. I replaced it with fiberglass mesh when I had the canister open. However, I made sure to doubly ensure that I would not accidentally suck a piece of charcoal into my intake or carburetor by placing a fuel filter in the vacuum lines.
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