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  #41  
Old 12-23-2010, 11:51 AM
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DAHoyle DAHoyle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticBoob
* The instructions you listed were for Edelbrock's MPFI - I still don't see any TBI system that says it requires 45psi, though I guess it could certainly be possible on the aftermarket units that run FOUR injectors. 45psi just seems really high for twin-injector TBI. Again, going by the flow-rate calculators, the injectors would have to be REALLY tiny for 45psi, because from what I've found in my MegaSquirt research, 45psi on stock 305, 350, or even 454 injectors should make them stick open. They simply can't close under 45psi.

Here is an interesting discussion I found on another forum:

http://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/inde...showtopic=8229



Have a good one, guys.

Yes, the instructions were in fact for an Edelbrock MPFI kit, with the specific purpose of converting a TBI setup to MPFI. They even use the stock throttle body on the new manifold. I was not using it to state that all TBI system needs that pressure. I only brought it up because AlsChopShop decided to call me out on the pump, and the vehicle it was in. I would guess that you are on the right track about why gm did it. It is irrelevant. My only point is that they DID do it, and just because AlsChopShop didn't know it, doesn't mean that it isn't fact. His post was both condescending, and totally wrong. That's a poor combination.

On the other hand, I have seen references of 30PSI for that vehicle, altho I can't find it right now, so I'm going to guess that gm did some innovative programming in there.

The idea that fuel pressure is not done to tune the engines, is also totally wrong, and we have seen many examples mentioned just in this post, not only by myself. One was a very long example linked to by none other than you.

http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/minj.htm

Simply put, tuning the fuel pressure, in combination with reprogramming, is and has been, a valuable tool for those who want to more with the TBI system than GM originally designed it for, and to say that nobody needs more than 13PSI is the same as saying that nobody needs more than 200 HP, literally as well as figuratively. I guarantee I can find dozens of threads that describe TBI Builds that go from mild to wild with pressures from stock, to well over double that.
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  #42  
Old 12-23-2010, 11:52 AM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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Ah hah! Found more info in this site: http://www.dynamicefi.com/TBI_Fueling.php


First, more CFM numbers"
Quote:
In the 2-bbl TBI series the popular units are found in three sizes:
  • 4.3l, 5.0l, and 5.7l engines:
    • have 1-11/16" bores and flow about 490 CFM
  • 7.4l engines:
    • have 2" bores and flow about 645 CFM
Quote:
Just watch for the '94 - '95 BBC truck units as the injectors only flow 46 #/hr at 13 psi. Which is 74 #/hr at the 30 psi these TBI units use. On the up side they come with a 30 psi FPR. The down side is that the injectors are small.

Notice how he only mentions this for the Big Block engines. If this is true for the 350, then there you have it. Just like I thought - if Chevy was running TBI at 30+psi, they'd have to run smaller injectors, and apparently they did, on the 454 anyway.
The injectors I'm running flow ~80lb/hour at ~12psi.
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  #43  
Old 12-23-2010, 11:57 AM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
My only point is that they DID do it, and just because AlsChopShop didn't know it, doesn't mean that it isn't fact. His post was both condescending, and totally wrong. That's a poor combination.

Hey, I can't speak for him, but at least we're all debating and getting more EFI info out there for people to read up on! I'd love to see IFSJA have an active fuel injection sub-forum.
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  #44  
Old 12-23-2010, 01:29 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticBoob
I'd love to see IFSJA have an active fuel injection sub-forum.

But then we'd need a Megasquirt section, a TPI section, a re-programmed PROM section and a section for those who aren't programming.
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  #45  
Old 12-23-2010, 03:41 PM
Joe Guilbeau Joe Guilbeau is offline
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Hey guys/gals

If you really want to know the details and not waste a lot of time quoting he said/she said references on the WWW, try a U.S. Patent Search to read the patents on the items of question.

You can learn the GM Throttle Body Injection ECU functions and theory of operation along with specifiec pulse width modification signal fed to their injectors. It is all there, and it is from the folks (engineers) who actually designed and wrung out the prototypes and when they got a working prototype they slapped a patent on it.

In any case it has been mildly entertaining to read the posts so far, and so I offer some additional information that may be of some possible use to some of the readers.

The subject matter below is in reference to flow rates, and injectors and programming mainly on Holley Pro Jection offerings (not as a thread hijack, but as a snapshot of what will work on an AMC-360).


For reference:

The Holley Pro-Jection 2-Injector Throttle Body Injection flowed up to 670 cfm at 3.0 inches of manifold vacuum (i.e. about the same performance as 4-barrel carbs).

The injectors were high-flow, low pressure capable of 80 pounds of fuel per hour which their manuals say is enough to supply a 275 horsepower engine.

U.S. Patent Number 4,708,117 will give you all the theory you need to know concerning Fuel Injectors (Holley injectors used)

The pressure regulator used was factory pre-set for 15 P.S.I. and adjustable between 12 P.S.I. and 18 P.S.I.

Not all of the fuel was utilized by the fuel injectors, so a return line is required for the excess fuel. (This means that you match the fuel pump to the injectors flow rates)

Holley also advertised Fuel Injectors P.N. 522-9508 for up to 1,520 Horse Power, these units flow 95 P.S.I. and there are eight of them, Summit Racing charges $800 for the injectors.

For you GM TBI guys/gals this site seems to have some rational suggestions
http://www.tbichips.com/truckmods.htm

WINALSL
http://www.tbichips.com/winaldl.htm

Some examples and write ups about project trucks
http://www.tbichips.com/jaredproject.htm

Play nice...
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  #46  
Old 12-28-2010, 08:55 PM
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AlsChopShop AlsChopShop is offline
 
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Da-hoyle, you are the most arrogant dumbasss i've ever met online. you were proven the point that the TBI system cannot utilize high pressure, and also pointed out that the factory book has a misprint.

don't try calling me out and saying i know nothing about TBI systems. my fleet has 3 tbi motors, its most of what i've known since i was into cars because i like the TBI system so much. i even double checked my facts with a guy who runs a 88-98 truck specific junkyard and he verified your completely off base and i was correct.

you know big words and theory on fuel injection, but you're still wrong on telling the original poster to go with a 454 tb, high pressure pump, and all that garbage you keep spewing to make yourself look like a know-it-all. you won't ever admit you're wrong, but we don't need you to. everyone can see it, as PlasticBoob printed more facts than you did. what was it, because you don't feel the need? come on, a 3 year old can find a better excuse. keep your theory's to yourself unless you are asked about them. and i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one who is tired of your attitude and garbage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
Going to throw in my 2 cents, and that is about all it's worth.
you misspoke. i think i'm going to print out your posts and wipe my butt with it. that should add some value to what you write.

Al
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  #47  
Old 12-28-2010, 10:14 PM
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DAHoyle DAHoyle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlsChopShop
Da-hoyle, you are the most arrogant dumbasss i've ever met online. you were proven the point that the TBI system cannot utilize high pressure, and also pointed out that the factory book has a misprint.

don't try calling me out and saying i know nothing about TBI systems. my fleet has 3 tbi motors, its most of what i've known since i was into cars because i like the TBI system so much. i even double checked my facts with a guy who runs a 88-98 truck specific junkyard and he verified your completely off base and i was correct.

you know big words and theory on fuel injection, but you're still wrong on telling the original poster to go with a 454 tb, high pressure pump, and all that garbage you keep spewing to make yourself look like a know-it-all. you won't ever admit you're wrong, but we don't need you to. everyone can see it, as PlasticBoob printed more facts than you did. what was it, because you don't feel the need? come on, a 3 year old can find a better excuse. keep your theory's to yourself unless you are asked about them. and i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one who is tired of your attitude and garbage.


you misspoke. i think i'm going to print out your posts and wipe my butt with it. that should add some value to what you write.

Al

First, your reading comprehension is pretty much abysmal.

I never said to go with a 454 system, and run a high pressure pump. I said the problem that most people have with the 454 throttle body was over fueling, and I stated that it could be tuned to run, by using smaller injectors, not higher pressures. I'll re-post it for the reading impaired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
Going to throw in my 2 cents, and that is about all it's worth.

By all means, toss in 454 throttle body. There is nothing wrong with it, and fuel flow is adjustable. I probably wouldn't run the injectors that came with it, and would step down to lower flow units. Chances are, you won't need all the fuel they provide, and there is no reason to try to tune around it. On the other hand, it can't hurt anything to have the airflow capability to upgrade, if you decide later to build a fire breather.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle

In any case, any given injectors flow rating, is at a specific pressure. Alter the pressure, and you alter the flow rating. Obviously, you can reduce the pressure to the 454 injectors to flow less, but IMHO, a smaller injector at a higher pressure, is better than the opposite.


Second, You have proven absolutely nothing, because you haven't come up with a single refernece. What the hell did you prove?

Really, can't use hight pressure? that is wrong. GM did, and It is pretty much established fact. A whole host of hotrodders and tinkerers have done so as well. I know for a fact that they did, and have pointed out references, and then PlasticBoob found the reference to the 30PSI run on the BBC system, from the factory. My personal rig is set to 15PSI, and aside from needing some tuning of the open loop table at idle, it works fine. The factory program handles it just fine everywhere except there. My intent is to go with smaller injecors, and crank it up even higher. I have proven it, and yet, you keep going back to the same thing. It never happened. Well, you need to change your tune, because you were wrong.


The comments I made on higher pressure, were directed towards a final tune, and I made mention of it because it is in fact tunable, as long as the fuel requirements of the engine are taken into account, and the computer tune matches the injectors, and the pressure chosen. If you don't get that, then, well, I don't know what to say. There is not much you can do with a closed mind, and I'm not interested in changing yours.

I don't care how many stock systems you have in your fleet, and I don't care how long you have been doing tuneups on stock systems. You are way behind the power curve on this, and whatever you and your salvage yard buddy think you know, you are mistaken. You wanted to make it personal by calling me out, on something I know for a fact, and all you have to go on is "this other guy told me". Well, great. All, I can say is, check your sources. I did. I actually have quate a large number of them, both from guys who have gone way overboard in tuning these systems, as well as the folks who have created many of the products which make it possible. I can find as many references as I want, and it won't influence you, or your lousy attitude,, so I won't bother. The facts are pretty much established, and the OP, and everyone else is free to make up their own mind. I'm thru with the subject, because I really could care less what you think. My intent was to provide facts, and provide options to those who may be interested. You aren't interested, so you don't need to accept them, but on the other hand, there was no reason for you to try to call me out on it, other than to make it personal. You wanted references, and they were provided, and PlasticBoob expanded on them as well. Rather than comment on the facts, you want to call me out again. Well, no dice. Come up with something to back your claim, other than "I never heard of it".

For evryone else, I am certainly not an expert, and have only my own experimentation and results to offer, but if you wish to know that, contact me by PM, and if I don't have an answer, I can certainly point you to someone who does. There are many more posibilities to the system, in both a performance standpoint, and to a lesser degree, an economy standpoint, than some around here would have you believe. The TBI system will support pretty much anything from mild to wild, depending on your desires, and the extent you wish to persue them. Multiple throttle bodies, forced induction, and any number of other possibilities exist for those wishing for them. Of course, a semi stock tune is easily obtainable as well from a couple of vendors, but a few data logs will get you a custom tune tailored specifically to your vehicle and driving style, for only a few dollars more.
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Build still very much in progress


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Last edited by DAHoyle : 12-29-2010 at 03:08 AM.
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  #48  
Old 12-29-2010, 10:56 AM
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billyj7175 billyj7175 is offline
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Where's Hankrod when you need him?





Too soon?





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  #49  
Old 12-29-2010, 12:15 PM
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AlsChopShop AlsChopShop is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
First, your reading comprehension is pretty much abysmal.
i have no problem comprehending that you're way off base.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
I never said to go with a 454 system, and run a high pressure pump. I said the problem that most people have with the 454 throttle body was over fueling, and I stated that it could be tuned to run, by using smaller injectors, not higher pressures. I'll re-post it for the reading impaired.
yes, you said go with a 454 but don't run its injectors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
Second, You have proven absolutely nothing, because you haven't come up with a single refernece. What the hell did you prove?
i didn't need to because plasticboob already got to it. i don't sit online all day waiting to inject online controversy like you do. i actually have stuff to do all day long that has importance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
Really, can't use hight pressure? that is wrong. GM did, and It is pretty much established fact. A whole host of hotrodders and tinkerers have done so as well. I know for a fact that they did, and have pointed out references, and then PlasticBoob found the reference to the 30PSI run on the BBC system, from the factory. bla bla bla....
did you not read what plasticboob posted? he clearly quoted that the factory manual had a misprint, probably because GM was writing the manuals for the vortec system which used hi-pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
The comments I made on higher pressure, were directed towards a final tune, and I made mention of it because it is in fact tunable, as long as the fuel requirements of the engine are taken into account, and the computer tune matches the injectors, and the pressure chosen. If you don't get that, then, well, I don't know what to say. There is not much you can do with a closed mind, and I'm not interested in changing yours.
did you even read the original post? the guy just wants to find a junkyard tbi system for his 360. he wasn't building a race car, was he? nope. so why even both mentioning a 454, or any of this other garbage that is wrong or does not apply at all? see, this is where you frequently barge in and spew a bunch of verbal vomit thinking you are coming across like an expert and trying to run everyone over with over-information. it doesn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
I don't care how many stock systems you have in your fleet, and I don't care how long you have been doing tuneups on stock systems. You are way behind the power curve on this, and whatever you and your salvage yard buddy think you know, you are mistaken. You wanted to make it personal by calling me out, on something I know for a fact, and all you have to go on is "this other guy told me". Well, great. All, I can say is, check your sources. I did.
who said i had only stock vehicles in my fleet? bit ASSumption on your part. nice try though. believe me when i tell you that you nor any of your friends can hold a candle to this specialist on this era of vehicles. i didn't make it personal, i simply asked for proof that your claims held any truth, and all you could come back with was "i don't really feel like i should have to". again, points were already sourced against what you said from multiple sources, and multiple users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
I actually have quate a large number of them, both from guys who have gone way overboard in tuning these systems, as well as the folks who have created many of the products which make it possible. I can find as many references as I want, and it won't influence you, or your lousy attitude,, so I won't bother.
who on this forum thinks i have a lousy attitude? only you. who thinks you have a lousy attitude? most everyone here, you've almost received the ban-hammer many times for garbage like this on other threads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
The facts are pretty much established, and the OP, and everyone else is free to make up their own mind. I'm thru with the subject, because I really could care less what you think. My intent was to provide facts, and provide options to those who may be interested. You aren't interested, so you don't need to accept them, but on the other hand, there was no reason for you to try to call me out on it, other than to make it personal. You wanted references, and they were provided, and PlasticBoob expanded on them as well. Rather than comment on the facts, you want to call me out again. Well, no dice. Come up with something to back your claim, other than "I never heard of it".
just as i predicted earlier, you won't ever admit your wrong. that's ok, we don't need you to, everyone else knows that your point was proven wrong. we have a special term used for people like yourself but i don't think i can post it here....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
For evryone else, I am certainly not an expert, and have only my own experimentation and results to offer, but if you wish to know that, contact me by PM, and if I don't have an answer, I can certainly point you to someone who does. There are many more posibilities to the system, in both a performance standpoint, and to a lesser degree, an economy standpoint, than some around here would have you believe. The TBI system will support pretty much anything from mild to wild, depending on your desires, and the extent you wish to persue them. Multiple throttle bodies, forced induction, and any number of other possibilities exist for those wishing for them. Of course, a semi stock tune is easily obtainable as well from a couple of vendors, but a few data logs will get you a custom tune tailored specifically to your vehicle and driving style, for only a few dollars more.
yep, you aren't, so stop acting like one and stop spreading misinformation. you are way off base, walk away.

Al
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  #50  
Old 12-29-2010, 08:59 PM
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DAHoyle DAHoyle is offline
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Forget it.

I posted a response, but it really doesn't matter. Pretty much everyone here can read, except you, apparently, so they can read what I said, and what others have said, and nowhere in there will they find your MIS Interpretations. You want to keep making a fool of yourself, it's fine by me. Feel free to misquote, misrepresent, or just outright lie, to make your point, if it makes you feel superior. It's gotten so bad that you are misquoting yourself to make a point, and I simply can't top that.

Seriously, You win.

On the other hand, as I said earlier, if anyone (other than Al)wants to discuss the subject in an intelligent manner, feel free to PM me.
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Front 89 HP60/Rear 81 GM D70HD
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Build still very much in progress


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Last edited by DAHoyle : 12-29-2010 at 09:38 PM.
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  #51  
Old 12-30-2010, 02:02 PM
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AlsChopShop AlsChopShop is offline
 
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"This message is hidden because DAHoyle is on your ignore list."

hey, this thread just got about a million times better.

Al
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  #52  
Old 03-01-2011, 06:20 AM
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^ funny read. Judge Judy better watch out!
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  #53  
Old 03-01-2011, 03:19 PM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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Something else I think I should add - I think the 454 throttle body is flowing just a little too much air to give me a nice low idle, even with the throttle plates fully closed. I have a slightly high idle in park (850-900 RPM) and gear, but I have no vacuum leaks and the mixture is set correctly. I'm not 100% certain that the 454 unit is the cause of my high idle, but it makes sense, especially since I have a nice low idle when it's cold. I think as it warms up, the butterfly gaps expand just enough to let in more air. It's not a big deal and the idle isn't so high that it's annoying. Or maybe I have the infamous TBI butterfly bushing wear? One more thing to get to on the list...
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