International Full Size Jeep Association
Home Forums Reader's Rigs Tech Library Trail Stories FSJ-List
International Full Size Jeep Association  

Go Back   International Full Size Jeep Association > Tire Kickin' > General FSJ Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-20-2011, 11:53 PM
DanHS's Avatar
DanHS DanHS is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 29, 2004
Location: Baiting Hollow, Long Island NY
Posts: 5,268
Steering woes continue, getting annoyed...

I just replaced a bunch of the steering on the GW; all tie rods, and the steering box. The steering is pretty smooth now and the truck goes nice and straight down the road, even if you let go of the steering, but it doesn't have that crazy powerful Cadillac like steering that it used to.

Here's a timeline to give a better idea of what the story is:

-bought the GW in fall of '04, steering was nice, smooth, and really easy to turn, could pretty much turn the wheel lock to lock with one finger, while in park. And while driving, it would glide back to center so smoothly it made me smile.

-Jan or so in '05, the steering began to leak, ATF came out, I kept putting in Napa PS fluid. A local shop put in a new seal and filled it with ATF, I think I went and replaced it with the Napa fluid. Steering was back to awesome. Napa fluid is thicker than atf and other ps fluids I've seen, seems really high quality and well suited to the Saginaw steering.

-Mid 2009, steering starts to get weak and kinda jerky feeling, replaced hoses and flushed fluid for more Napa fluid, steering went back to being awesome again.

-May 2010, steering box began pissing all over, had to get Jeep inspected asap, let the shop do the seal. They said the box spit the seal out, and replaced it with a reman box, filled with ATF. Steering SUCKED (felt like it barely had any assist, didn't return to center, kinda jerky). I flushed the ATF for the Napa fluid, was better, but still stiff, mildly jerky.

-about the end of winter, steering takes a dump and gets really weak and jerky, to the point where it's real work to make turns without careening all over the place. Assist is spotty, coming in weak spurts, steering is stiff, clunky (needed new tie rods but it was more than just that), doesn't return to center at all, generally a death trap. Flushed fluid and added a filter, but it didn't really help.

-in the last few days, I ordered a Lares pn1182 steering box, listed for an '84 J20. What I received looks identical to a normal 1/2 ton metric threaded box, even has the same casting number as the current reman box. Installed it anyway, along with all new Moog tie rod ends. So my steering is smooth again, but the assist is still weak, and there's definitely a hard spot to overcome as you first turn the wheel. It returns to center ok, but doesn't glide back, spinning the wheel in your hand smoothly, like it used to. I checked the lines for kinks, but they look just fine.

Now I'm wondering if that crummy reman box killed my steering pump, there were ultra fine metal particles in the fluid, which was why I flushed the fluid and added the filter, but perhaps it was too late. I suppose the next logical step is to replace the steering pump and see what happens? Does this sound like a worn out/damaged steering pump, or just crummy boxes? I thought if my steering pump went, it'd pretty much go altogether, not just get weak. Should I go get more Napa PS fluid, or is there a more recommended fluid I should get, maybe the GM fluid specified for hydroboost systems? That leads me to consider getting the 2000psi pump with dual return reservoir from a GM truck with hydroboost (mid 80's K20 Chevy I'm assuming), as I'm planning on going to hydroboost soon too. Seems like the next step to me, unless there's some gauge I can test the pump with?
__________________
'84 Grand Wagoneer 360/727/229, 32" General ST's and 36" Swampers, 3" lift, TFI/Mallory 6AL, CS 144, Taurus fan, custom bumper, and custom 'bodywork'. Soon to have 6" lift

'79 Cherokee S 360/T15/D20, rusting away while I figure out what to do with it

'91 Final Edition GW in Spinnaker Blue!

My FSJ pics

FSJ Grille Identification
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:31 AM
cajun_lad's Avatar
cajun_lad cajun_lad is offline
Master Mechanic
 
Join Date: Feb 17, 2006
Location: Vidalia, GA
Posts: 1,368
Did you vent the system after the box install? Engine off, front tires off the ground, turn the wheel lock to lock (slowly) about 10x in each direction, filling the reservoir as needed (I had replaced the pump and lines when I added my J20 box, so it took me a few more turns. I kept going until I no longer had to add fluid, and then verified with 2 more turns each direction.) Then crank the motor (keep the tires off the ground) and again turn lock to lock (slowly) adding fluid as needed, checking for bubbles.
__________________
Joey
Jeep-Less
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-21-2011, 08:28 AM
JeepinPete's Avatar
JeepinPete JeepinPete is offline
Bleedin' Gasoline
 
Join Date: Dec 09, 2003
Location: Quakertown, PA
Posts: 2,192
First off, you know the steering system as Jeep installed it worked great. So why would you go down the road of "upgrades" when the replacement parts aren't working? You know where the problem lies, the steering gear and the pump. Nothing else can cause your problems.

That said, your problems probably started with crappy rebuilds. I would venture a guess and say they are not adjusted properly, or the internals are worn such that they cannot be adjusted properly. And they probably do not go through any great lengths to make sure the proper spool valve is used, which directly controls the feel of the steering. I would recommend finding a good known Wagoneer box, and buying a seal kit for it. It isn't a hard task to install the seals, and adjusting the box is very easy on the bench. Then get yourself a new, not rebuilt, PS pump to replace what is likely your current damaged pump.

It has been my experience that rebuilt parts suck. I've never had any luck with any rebuilt part I have bought from a parts store. Heck, just recently I replaced the PS pump on my Dodge cause it was noisy. The "rebuilt" pump was noisier yet
__________________
Pete

'55 Willys Wagon, the original FSJ
Sitting on a '77 Cherokee frame, Dodge D60's
Isuzu 6BD1, NV4500, NP241

Last edited by JeepinPete : 06-21-2011 at 08:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:53 AM
mdill's Avatar
mdill mdill is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 22, 2000
Location: Richfield MN
Posts: 7,076
You can try one of these :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JEEP-DELPHI-600-16-1-POWER-STEERING-BOX-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3ca68e287bQQitemZ26049 2372091QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries
Newer style spool valve, based on the rack and pinion boxes, used in racing applications, as well as older retrofits, lots of stuff out there on the web, I don't know if the feed back rate is programmable like the old boxes that used a torsion bar(s) that can be swapped around.
I have been thinking of giving one of these a try.

Alternatively you might want to find a good used box, sounds like you liked the limp torsion bar jeep used, where you are getting boxes with stiffer bars in them. (Like 99% of the "rebuilt" stuff on the shelf at chain stores, it likely is not the same as what you had and the quality is usually poor) You are better off rebuilding yourself, or find some who can do is an gives a darn. (good luck with that anymore)
__________________
-----------------------------------------
Home of ADHD project list

1977 J-10 Honcho 360-T15-D20
1977 Cherokee WT 360-Th400-NP241 true-trac(s)
1979 Cherokee 4 Door 258-T-18-D20
1981 Cherokee Chief WT 360-727-NP208
1972 K20 Suburban 350 SM465 205
And the other stuff that gets driven
----------------------------------------

Last edited by mdill : 06-21-2011 at 11:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-21-2011, 07:47 PM
DanHS's Avatar
DanHS DanHS is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 29, 2004
Location: Baiting Hollow, Long Island NY
Posts: 5,268
Hmm, seems that I should try tracking down a lower mileage junked truck to pull the parts off of. If I had the time for it, I would have done new seals on my old box, and stupid me, I never made them give me the old box back, so now I've lost the good old box that probably only needed to be cleaned up and resealed. I have a TSM too that walks you through the whole process. I'll have to check the GW I found in the junkyard, maybe it would have a good box, the one at the Jeep shop here has over 250k on it, might not be a good donor. Figures, have to go hunting down parts to test out and see what's correct. Maybe I can at least complain about the box I received not being a J20 box and get them to send me a shipping label and get my money back.
__________________
'84 Grand Wagoneer 360/727/229, 32" General ST's and 36" Swampers, 3" lift, TFI/Mallory 6AL, CS 144, Taurus fan, custom bumper, and custom 'bodywork'. Soon to have 6" lift

'79 Cherokee S 360/T15/D20, rusting away while I figure out what to do with it

'91 Final Edition GW in Spinnaker Blue!

My FSJ pics

FSJ Grille Identification
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-21-2011, 08:01 PM
Headhoncho's Avatar
Headhoncho Headhoncho is offline
FSJ Maniac
 
Join Date: Oct 11, 2006
Location: Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Posts: 3,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHS
Hmm, seems that I should try tracking down a lower mileage junked truck to pull the parts off of. If I had the time for it, I would have done new seals on my old box, and stupid me, I never made them give me the old box back, so now I've lost the good old box that probably only needed to be cleaned up and resealed. I have a TSM too that walks you through the whole process. I'll have to check the GW I found in the junkyard, maybe it would have a good box, the one at the Jeep shop here has over 250k on it, might not be a good donor. Figures, have to go hunting down parts to test out and see what's correct. Maybe I can at least complain about the box I received not being a J20 box and get them to send me a shipping label and get my money back.

Doesn't the J20 box have a larger diameter end cap compared to the j10 box? Something like 3" instead of the normal 2 1/2"?


JR
__________________
[quote] "How does someone from Iran have a BJ's Offroad sticker but I can't seem to get one sent to New Jersey???!!!"


1980 Honcho Sportside w/37's, 351c, 14" lift, D44high pinion w/Aussie, crossover steering, 14b w/detroit, np435, 205, 5.13's, 4whl discs, hb brakes, OBAir, rusted out cab,
1966 mustang fastback
'07 Dodge Charger 3.5
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:43 PM
DanHS's Avatar
DanHS DanHS is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 29, 2004
Location: Baiting Hollow, Long Island NY
Posts: 5,268
Yea, a J-20 has a larger bore, for more powerful assist, better for heavier loads, and larger tires of course. I'm hoping to go check out that junkyard GW on Saturday, hoping for rain so I can get out of work. In the meantime, I emailed Rock Auto about the steering box, they replied fast, though they don't sound particularly educated about cars, trying to explain to them that the boxes are interchangeable, so the manufacturer must have just decided to do only one box and let the customer suffer (don't buy anything from Lares). I have to manage to get a replacement, send back this box, and maybe get a different brand J-20 box if they can confirm that it's correct. Or if I can get an original box that functions right, I'll just take my money back and wait to find an original J-20 box.
__________________
'84 Grand Wagoneer 360/727/229, 32" General ST's and 36" Swampers, 3" lift, TFI/Mallory 6AL, CS 144, Taurus fan, custom bumper, and custom 'bodywork'. Soon to have 6" lift

'79 Cherokee S 360/T15/D20, rusting away while I figure out what to do with it

'91 Final Edition GW in Spinnaker Blue!

My FSJ pics

FSJ Grille Identification
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-22-2011, 12:06 AM
austinaubinoe's Avatar
austinaubinoe austinaubinoe is offline
FSJ Maniac
 
Join Date: Aug 08, 2010
Location: Maryland/ Williamsport, PA
Posts: 2,995
Yeah its pretty common knowledge that most places sell wagoneer/ j10 boxes as the J20 box. This is because 80+ j20's are hard to find. I ordered a CarDone 78 J20 box from rock auto and it was the bigger box, just gotta change the lines. This was is for my XJ.
__________________
Austin

1991 Hunter Green Grand Wagoneer
5.9 2bbl-727-NP229-TFI-30x9.5 Firestone M/T's-Brush Guard-tire mount
SOON: 4350 and cast iron intake

Others:
-1994 Baby Grand
-2000 XJ cherokee on Tons
-1953 REO M35A2 6x6
-1955 Willys Pickup



Quote:
Originally Posted by rustywagoneers_com
i am not an addict, i can stop anytime.
i dont have a problem, you people have the problem.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-22-2011, 05:56 AM
cajun_lad's Avatar
cajun_lad cajun_lad is offline
Master Mechanic
 
Join Date: Feb 17, 2006
Location: Vidalia, GA
Posts: 1,368
I bought mine from Advance (b/c I have a buddy that works there that gives me employee discount). Fenco P/N: SG17538, for an 82 J20. Larger 4+" end cap, but also it had a larger splined input shaft. Had to make my rag joint "fit". Not pretty, but I'm about to go to a Borgeson steering shaft anyways, so I'll make sure I get a joint that fits.
__________________
Joey
Jeep-Less
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-22-2011, 07:09 AM
710 Burner's Avatar
710 Burner 710 Burner is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 30, 2003
Location: Normal, Oklahoma
Posts: 8,684
OK, I have a silly question...
Why don't you just order a box for a '72 Caddy? They are really easy to turn.
__________________
Mark B. Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandWag&Prix
Actually, now that I think about it, that could be either awesome or really terrible.


'79 Cherokee Chief "Junaluska"
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-22-2011, 07:55 PM
jpcoutts's Avatar
jpcoutts jpcoutts is offline
304 AMC
 
Join Date: Jun 28, 2002
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 1,961
My observation has been that the '80 and older boxes used by AMC were the low effort units that you could give a spin with one finger and the later models used boxes that required more effort to turn the wheel and had no "inertia" so that as soon as you let go of the wheel it stops where you let go of it.
__________________
Jim C
'67 J3000 Dually
'86 J20
'79 CJ5(in pieces)
'86 CJ7 Doesn't need anything(so why do I have it?)
Correction- it just needed a water pump!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-22-2011, 08:46 PM
DanHS's Avatar
DanHS DanHS is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 29, 2004
Location: Baiting Hollow, Long Island NY
Posts: 5,268
Because I don't want to go crazy combining standard and metric fittings. The pump is metric, the hydroboost system I will use is metric, I don't want to have to make custom hoses, I want all off the shelf parts.

On my '84, the steering could turn with one finger, and once you let go of the wheel going through a turn, it quickly spun all the way back to center. I could let it slide in my hand and grasp it slightly to slow how quickly the wheels went to center, and I could spin the wheel with my open palm barely pressing against it. The ultra smooth and easy steering was one of the things I loved about the GW, so not having it is rather upsetting.

On the bright side, Rock Auto emailed me a prepaid FedEx shipping label, so I'm going to grab a box either from the GW at work or the junkyard if I can get there, swap that in for now, and send back my wrong box. I may order an ATSCO brand J-20 box and try my luck there, they list one part number for the J-20, and another for all 1/2 tons, unlike Lares that listed theirs for the J-20 and some 1/2 tons. Starting to lose patience, but if I can get my old steering back or better, I'll be happy.
__________________
'84 Grand Wagoneer 360/727/229, 32" General ST's and 36" Swampers, 3" lift, TFI/Mallory 6AL, CS 144, Taurus fan, custom bumper, and custom 'bodywork'. Soon to have 6" lift

'79 Cherokee S 360/T15/D20, rusting away while I figure out what to do with it

'91 Final Edition GW in Spinnaker Blue!

My FSJ pics

FSJ Grille Identification

Last edited by DanHS : 06-22-2011 at 08:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thanks for Steering Columns! & Steering box questions... FS Jeep Man General FSJ Tech 3 12-18-2007 11:46 AM
'nother FNG??? Steering this time waynestiles General FSJ Discussion 1 10-14-2007 07:40 PM
Steering box conversion bigben General FSJ Tech 4 09-05-2007 05:31 AM
Power Steering 75 V.S. 81 round 2 Cherokee!!!! Lone Justice General FSJ Discussion 1 08-31-2007 05:13 PM
Power Steering Pump Woes Ernzo General FSJ Tech 8 08-19-2001 12:00 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
corner corner