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  #301  
Old 08-30-2019, 08:39 AM
Wagoneer Taylor's Avatar
Wagoneer Taylor Wagoneer Taylor is online now
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Not to be redundent but You got this!

At least you know the what the problem is, and plug wires aren't too expensive.
But i feel for ya, We just want to see you driving it!
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  #302  
Old 08-30-2019, 08:47 AM
SJTD SJTD is online now
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Were the new wires a big name?
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  #303  
Old 08-30-2019, 09:20 AM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJTD
Were the new wires a big name?
first wires I had were $16 from Rock Auto, United brand for a 460 Ford. The wires were marked "Packard Delcore". They arc'ed all over the cap.

Second set I bought were Summit branded, universal, you completes. They had 27 5 star reviews and were about $46. They are marked "Packard..." (I don't remember the rest of the markings but they had Packard on there and some other writing).

The ones showing up today are Taylor universal, you finish, 8.5mm and were $61'ish. If I arc through these Taylors, I have other issues. Resistance measured from the valve cover bolt to the negative terminal is 1 ohm.
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  #304  
Old 08-31-2019, 08:44 AM
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Driftwood Driftwood is offline
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by rang-a-stang (May 2018)
-I hope to be done before Christmas.

Rang. Ya gonna make it this year? 116 more days!
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  #305  
Old 08-31-2019, 09:27 AM
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SOLSAKS SOLSAKS is offline
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dang-it rang

I am so ready for you to get that backfiring solved

sounds like the wires are the culprit

doesn't Taylor make some heavy duty wires ?

keep us posted.

dave in NC
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1976 J-10 HONCHO Fleetside
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  #306  
Old 09-03-2019, 12:21 PM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood
Rang. Ya gonna make it this year? 116 more days!
I don't know man. This thing is killing me. If I could smog it, it would be on Craigslist today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLSAKS
dang-it rang
I am so ready for you to get that backfiring solved
sounds like the wires are the culprit
doesn't Taylor make some heavy duty wires ?
keep us posted.
dave in NC

Thinking... maybe I should change my name to Dang-it-stang. You and me both!! (ready to get rid of the backfiring). Yeah, these Taylors are super nice!
*************************
I got my Taylor's this weekend and installed them last night. They feel SOOooo much nicer than the Summits. The crimp on ends were much tighter and they just generally feel like a MUCH nicer set. Again, spent about 90 minutes making, installing, and routing these.

Random thought: Anyone else hate these holes? I have at least a wrench and a socket u-joint that are now a permanent part of my truck because they have fallen through these holes, and into the little nook inside the radiator support, behind the front turn signals. Now I tape them as I start working.


I started it up around 8:30 last night and the sun was already down. I turned the lights off in my garage and it was pitch black. No glowing arcs; awesome! I did see a slight yellow glow on the drivers side. I turned on the light and the connector where my Oxygen sensor heater is connected to the 12v ignition power bus bar was hot hot hot. I took my multimeter out and measured it as shorted. I unhooked it for now and tucked the connector away. I don't "Need" an Oxygen sensor heater, it's just nice to have.

Started it up again, shut the hood, and took it for a spin. It fell much better as I heading out my neighborhood. Lots more power. I went out around the corner and gave it some beans. It started to spin a tire, then bucked, backfired, and evened out. I noticed I was almost out of gas so I headed about 150 yards to a gas station to put 5 gallons in the tank, assuming that when I goosed it, the fuel sloshed aft and I lost fuel pressure. BUT I could feel the sweat starting to form on my brow from stress that I was not out of the back fire woods yet.

Left the gas station, and cruised toward the freeway. It seemed to be running pretty well but seems to have a slight miss every once in a while. I stopped at the light at the on ramp for a few seconds then started up to the freeway. I got to 70 and POP! I was so every muscle over my belt line tensed up and I released a word this forum blocks, so loud I thought my windshield was going to crack worse than it already is. Heading home, I could feel it missing every once in a while. The back fire sounded a little different this time, though.

My hope is one my plug wires is not seated all the way on the plug. When I got home, I popped the hood and there were tiny little arcs down near my plugs but I think that is fairly normal. I also saw an occasional arc from my #4 wire to my valve cover. Hopefully that is the one that not seated all the way (if there is one not seated all the way). I have put EVERYTHING (other projects/other fixes/other upgrades) on hold until it no longer backfires. All mental and financial hands on deck for this one. Not being able to fix it is so incredibly demoralizing. It's hard to not take out my frustration on my wife and kids when I come in. I don't mean I hit them or anything, but I am super grumpy and distracted but they don't deserve that.

So where do I go from here? Well, tonight, I check my wires and make sure they seated. I am going to move #4s wire a little farther from the valve cover. I am going to change my EFI bin WAAAaaaaayyyy back to where it was when I tried to make it to Hungry Valley a few months ago (stock 454 timing table, stock 454 fuel tables). My oxygen sensor is now suspect so I may unhook it and run open loop and see if that makes a difference, too (babywag has asked me like 3 times to do that but I haven't been ready just yet).
The other thing that sucks is the fender flares I bought are full of bondo. I am sure they could be fixed and used but honestly, that was $100 I probably wasted. Awesome. I started to strip the paint, saw the bondo and welding from the body shop, and kind of gave up. I will take them to the blaster and get them blasted at least and may try to sell them here to recoup some money but I am not hopeful on those either.
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  #307  
Old 09-03-2019, 12:28 PM
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SOLSAKS SOLSAKS is offline
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son of a gun !!!

I was hoping the Taylors would solve the problem.

let us know how tonites test goes.

I got my fingers crossed !

dave in NC
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1976 J-10 HONCHO Fleetside
1982 J-10 Fleetside
1988 grand wagoneer
2004 RUBICON jeep
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  #308  
Old 09-03-2019, 12:38 PM
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Wagoneer Taylor Wagoneer Taylor is online now
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Big old BUMMER!
Sorry man, keep at it we are rooting for you.
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  #309  
Old 09-03-2019, 10:36 PM
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Driftwood Driftwood is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rang-a-stang
I released a word this forum blocks, so loud I thought my windshield was going to crack worse than it already is.

Funny. I thought I sensed a disturbance in the force....And I was clear up in Coeur d'Alene.

But seriously, I did some research on the cause of backfiring and found the following info. My apologies if I'm restating the obvious.

A fuel-injected engine may backfire if an intake leak is present (causing the engine to run lean), or a fuel injection component such as an air-flow sensor is defective. ... Poor or unregulated engine timing is often a cause of intake backfires, but can also be responsible for exhaust backfires.

And this....

Engine backfires can be produced by a vacuum leak, bad timing, problems in the ignition system, a faulty sensor, an exhaust leak, or some other system fault. ... You can hear the combustion as a mild, cough-like ignition or a loud bang. A strong explosion, though, can cause severe damage, like cracking an exhaust manifold.


My money is on a possible vacuum leak followed by a exhaust leak. Wish I could be of more help.
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  #310  
Old 09-05-2019, 10:46 AM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood
F...I did some research on the cause of backfiring and found the following info. My apologies if I'm restating the obvious.

A fuel-injected engine may backfire if an intake leak is present (causing the engine to run lean), or a fuel injection component such as an air-flow sensor is defective. ... Poor or unregulated engine timing is often a cause of intake backfires, but can also be responsible for exhaust backfires.

And this....

Engine backfires can be produced by a vacuum leak, bad timing, problems in the ignition system, a faulty sensor, an exhaust leak, or some other system fault. ... You can hear the combustion as a mild, cough-like ignition or a loud bang. A strong explosion, though, can cause severe damage, like cracking an exhaust manifold.

My money is on a possible vacuum leak followed by a exhaust leak. Wish I could be of more help.
Good info, Ed! I am going to ponder on it some more. I am going to start another thread here, on theamcforum, and gearhead-efi looking for this exact type of info.
*********************************
Update from last night.

Here is where I started:


I went to each cylinder, removed the wire, slopped a little bit more dielectric grease on each plug's ceramic and took my time reinstalling the wires. #5 felt like it 'might' have been loose? Maybe? I also might be grasping at straws. Then I looked at where #4 runs next to the valve cover (this was arc'ing on Monday night):

I couldn't really move it so I put a length of black corregated plastic conduit around it. That not only made a barrier but it made the wire a little stiffer and it caused the wire to curve in a way that it was a little farther away. I felt pretty good about this.

I also thought back to driftwood's post and decided to plug my PCV for now.

I fired it up in the garage with the lights off, hood popped. I saw an occasional arc from the coil wire to the oil fill cap and another one from #3 to the Distributor body. So I put some conduit on those, too.

I then started my data log and went for a spin. Here is my route:

Red lines are 45 or 50 MPH speed, black is 65. Run 1 is about 2 miles, run 2 is about 3/4 of a mile, run 3 is about 2.25 miles.
First time out, I had my tune in it. It ran amazing down Run 1 toward the highway. Smooth, powerful, Awesome. If it ran like this all the time, I would be a SUPER happy camper. I stop at the light at the end of Run 1, head up the long onramp at about 1/2-3/4s throttle, get up to about 65 and pop! I slowly easy off the gas and and it pops and burbles occasionally. As I turn exit the freeway and head up run 3 at about 50, steady throttle, it's popping and I can feel it running terrible.

I turn right, at the gas station, pull over, shut off and swap my EFI BINs. The one I put in has stock 454 fuel and timing tables. I start it up and it idles MUCH smoother, right off the bat. As I pull out and make a right to re-do the route, I head down run 1 and it is running OK. it has alot less power but it is running OK. I feel an occasional pop as i come up to the light in front of Harbor Freight. As I get on the freeway, hit 55 or 60 and POW, POW, POW!!! I left off the gas and POW! As I coast off the freeway, an occasional pop. As I head toward home on Run 3, its running the worse it has run all night. So I got home and park it.

I didn't feel "that" beat because I wasn't really optimistic anyway. Like I said, I am going to start another thread on this and the other forums. I also need to look at my data logs and see if I see anything odd in there. I wonder if I have a mechanical problem. I am fairly certain my pushrods are too long so maybe that is a contributor? I still have all my duraspark stuff (except the dizzy itself), maybe I will swap that on. If that does not work, maybe I have to put a carb on it? I am running out of ideas.
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Last edited by rang-a-stang : 09-05-2019 at 11:17 AM.
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  #311  
Old 09-06-2019, 09:40 AM
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SOLSAKS SOLSAKS is offline
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nice detail on the map of test drives/runs,...

hope you get it solved.

dave in NC
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1976 J-10 HONCHO Fleetside
1982 J-10 Fleetside
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  #312  
Old 09-06-2019, 05:36 PM
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Driftwood Driftwood is offline
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Thinking out loud....if the push rods are too long.....valves are not closing tight....especially at moderate RPMs...


I have a pallet in the driveway awaiting your troubled 401...
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  #313  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:17 PM
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63J200atLSU 63J200atLSU is offline
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Man, stuff like this is just the worst, because it's almost always something simple that's just incredibly difficult to pinpoint...

That being said, this is a long shot, but my 2011 Audi A4 was misfiring like crazy and was really giving me the sweats. Turned out to be spark plugs which were way overlapped. I changed plugs and triple-checked the gap and it's been humming ever since.

Is it backfiring through the intake? It seems like intake backfiring is possibly indicative of timing issues. If it's an exhaust backfire when it warms up, it seems like you're getting unburned fuel into the exhaust. That could point to a number of things but a spark plug that isn't firing consistently could be a culprit. As it got warmer, the coil would have to work harder and harder.

These may both be dead ends, but sometimes a wrong suggestion can trigger a thought that you hadn't considered previously... I'd be happy to be wrong if it led to a solution somehow...

I'm assuming you've already checked valve lash?

Electrical Gremlins are definitely my kryptonite, I feel for you man. Keep plugging away though, you'll figure it out. And then you will have a well deserved beer. Or seven.
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  #314  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:27 PM
rang-a-stang's Avatar
rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLSAKS
nice detail on the map of test drives/runs,...
hope you get it solved.
dave in NC
Thanks, Dave! I figure with detail, it helps others see things I might be blind too. I read a cool story once written by a mechanic that said a little old lady brought in her car and she said when she went to Lucky's to get ice cream, if she got one flavor of ice cream, she would come out to her car and it would start right up. If she got another flavor it would not start. The mechanic checked out her car but found nothing wrong. So he went with her to get some ice cream. She went in and ordered the first flavor, came out, and sure enough, it started. They drove around the block a few times then she went back in, got the other flavor, and this time it would not start. Mechanic said as he watched the whole situation, the first flavor was a common flavor (like chocolate or something) so when the dude served her up, the box was in the front of the cooler and the ice cream was kind of soft/easy to scoop so she was in and out of Lucky's quickly. The second flavor was an uncommon one (like pecan or something like that) so he had to reach farther back, scoop harder so it took an extra minute or so to serve up. In the mean time, her car sat there and Vapor locked or fuel boiled in the carb or something like that so it would not start afterward. The moral of the story was, pay attention to details. Old lady thought it was ice cream flavors, mechanic saw the real reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood
Thinking out loud....if the push rods are too long.....valves are not closing tight....especially at moderate RPMs...

I have a pallet in the driveway awaiting your troubled 401...
Hope to measure pushrods tonight! I am expecting them to be about 1/4" long. Noted (pallet). I made some progress this week so it may sit empty for a little bit...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 63J200atLSU
Man, stuff like this is just the worst, because it's almost always something simple that's just incredibly difficult to pinpoint...

That being said, this is a long shot, but my 2011 Audi A4 was misfiring like crazy and was really giving me the sweats. Turned out to be spark plugs which were way overlapped. I changed plugs and triple-checked the gap and it's been humming ever since.

Is it backfiring through the intake? It seems like intake backfiring is possibly indicative of timing issues. If it's an exhaust backfire when it warms up, it seems like you're getting unburned fuel into the exhaust. That could point to a number of things but a spark plug that isn't firing consistently could be a culprit. As it got warmer, the coil would have to work harder and harder.

These may both be dead ends, but sometimes a wrong suggestion can trigger a thought that you hadn't considered previously... I'd be happy to be wrong if it led to a solution somehow...

I'm assuming you've already checked valve lash?

Electrical Gremlins are definitely my kryptonite, I feel for you man. Keep plugging away though, you'll figure it out. And then you will have a well deserved beer. Or seven.
I thought of plug gaps, too. I pulled my plugs once and verified them. Then I replaced them, paying special attention to gaps. No change.

It's out exhaust. Always out exhaust. I thought of a sketchy plug too. So I replaced them. No change. sigh...

Yeah, I've lashed my rockers about 6 times. I will be doing it again, soon, too. Honestly, I absolutely LOVE these types of questions because I get blind to the basics sometimes and get wrapped around the axle with "what-if's". these types of comments keep me centered and I really appreciate them.
*******************************************
Well, bottom line up front: I fixed it, then I broke it. It was distributor phasing!!! Details and pictures here:
Back firing thread with pictures

I felt a huge sigh of relief as I was cruising home. I was prepping myself that all I had to do was measure my pushrods and replace them and was going to be cruising my truck all over, tweaking my tune, and doing burnouts. Then my rig kicked me in the nuts. Fuel pump died about 1.5 miles from home in the middle of a busy road. I got to push it out of traffic through a busy intersection, up a ramp and into a parking lot. My fat old thighs would not even hold me up when I got out of traffic. So I laid under a tree trying to figure out why I have this thing and what would be the best story to tell my insurance as to how I lost it and why they should give me a payout.

I had no phone on me (was just going around my track to test for backfires) so I got to hobble the mile and a half home with legs of jello to get my Mazda and phone. I called my roadside assistance and it only took them 2.5 hours to come get me.


I will figure out why the pump shut off tonight. That fuel pump is new and under warranty but I bought it from Rock Auto so it has to be tested, sent back, then wait for a new one. Guess its a good time to measure for pushrods.
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  #315  
Old 09-17-2019, 08:21 AM
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Wagoneer Taylor Wagoneer Taylor is online now
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Man what a total win on the phasing!!!

So bummed you had another issue so close to fixing the first!
You have this thing because soon it will be a total beast!

If you feel you must get rid of it I am sure one of us will hold it for you until you come back to your senses and want it back

Keep at it Marc, your build is keeping mine going!
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  #316  
Old 09-18-2019, 01:53 PM
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SOLSAKS SOLSAKS is offline
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rang, just read your latest posts.

kinda fun story for us to read

but not so fun when it is happening to you, in traffic.

I can totally relate to the jello legs when exhausted.

many would have given up and torched the rig....

glad you did not.

sounds like after the new fuel pump

you will be off and running !!!

dave in NC
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  #317  
Old 09-18-2019, 06:59 PM
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63J200atLSU 63J200atLSU is offline
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DUDE!

That is so good to hear that you got it figured out!! Happy for you, man. Love that rig!
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'63 J200 Resto-mod in progress
(http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=178651)

If all goes well, we can toast to accidental successes.

I'm convinced I'm just too dumb to know that I can't restore this old truck...
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  #318  
Old 09-18-2019, 08:31 PM
Rusty76 Rusty76 is offline
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Nice job and great sorry! Thats a character builder forsure!
I also have been learning a lot from your misery. Sooo thanks!
Cant wait for the smooth sailing report.
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  #319  
Old 09-22-2019, 05:24 PM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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Thanks everyone! I know there will be a day when I look back on this and laugh. It's not today though.

So the second big driving killer now that the backfiring is fixed (other than the fuel pump) is my pushrods. I measured for them incorrectly when I was doing my build and ordered ones that are significantly too long. I ordered a push rod checker that measures from 7.800" to 8.800" (my current pushrods are 8.125"). I put the checker at 7.800" and it was close but still too long. So I ordered the next tool down, 6.800" to 7.800". I also order what's called checking valve springs. They are basically these super soft valve springs so when you are cranking the motor over, the pressure of the valve spring does not collapse the lifter. To put them on, you pressurize your combustion chamber, then use a valve spring compressor to remove the spring, keeper and retainer. Then you install the checker springs in place of the stock springs but with the stock retainer and keepers.

I took an old spark plug, busted the ceramic off, and hallowed the plug out. Then I JB-Welded an air hose fitting on it and screwed that into the spark plug hole. I pressurized the chamber, swapped the first spring, then moved on to the second spring. As I was removing the keepers, one fell. Of course it did. I looked for that for 45 minutes before the wife yelled at me to come in. Ashpaltrockdweller had spare keepers and is sending me a couple. I am flying out on yet another business trip this week (3 trips, to 3 states, in 3 weeks is rough) so I won't get to touch it for another few days.

Fuel pump show up tomorrow... right after I fly away. I'll get some pictures of all this when I get home.
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  #320  
Old 09-23-2019, 07:02 AM
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bkilby bkilby is offline
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That's a bummer on the keeper. You sure it didn't go in the engine or head? It sucks when work gets in the way of playing with your hobbies.
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