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View Poll Results: which drive-train?
6.2/3053a 5 3.94%
6.2/nv4500 24 18.90%
6bt 76 59.84%
SBC or BBC on CNG or LPG 1 0.79%
Toroflow v-6 diesel 5 3.94%
machinist is full of stinky poo 16 12.60%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 11-17-2008, 08:07 PM
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uglyjeep uglyjeep is offline
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Diesel drivetrain options...

I've been (slowly) working on setting up a 6.2 and 3053a (military 2.5 ton trans) for my truck. I've known that I'd need to have this setup balanced, but I had also figured that it’d be under $200 to have it done. I just got told by the machinist, at a reputable shop, that he thinks the work will probably run between $200 and $400 ! I was doing this swap because it was going to be cheaper than swapping in a Cummins, but now I’m thinking that I can sell my 6.2 and use the money I’d have spent on the machine work (plus some more) and get myself a 6bt or something.

So the way I see it I’ve got several options – 1) have the machine work done and run the 6.2/3053a. 2) Sell the 3053a stuff and spend $1000 to have an nv4500. 3) Get rid of the 6.2 and squeeze in a Cummins 6bt (I can’t afford a 4bt). 4) run a SBC or BBC on LPG or CNG.

I’m good at scrounging parts and being very patient to find the best deals. I have also seen several complete 6bt drive-trains for $1000 or less. I have not found any NV4500’s or 4bt’s in my range. I also have a very limited budget.
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The eternal project -'88 6.2 diesel, '75 cherokee chassis, t-18 & dana 20, & WT dana 44's, front lock right, '67 j-3000 cab ('75 dash & pedals, '67 column, "leather" astro bench), '3? IH bed, 32" mtr's
Almost drivable!

'66 cj-6a tuxedo park - 225 v-6, bds 3" lift, ft disc brakes, PTO winch, OBA, Mobi-Arc OBW

Last edited by uglyjeep : 11-17-2008 at 08:11 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-17-2008, 10:22 PM
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mattmopar440 mattmopar440 is offline
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6BT good strong engine I6 so it easier to swap dose wieght a little
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  #3  
Old 11-18-2008, 08:49 AM
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JeepinPete JeepinPete is offline
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The 6BT is such a better engine, it make little sense to put any money into a 6.2L. But anything with the Cummins name is pricey. So that makes a budget build pretty tough.

Why not use the 3053 with the 6BT? I am no expert on this, but doesn't the 3053 use SAE spec bellhousings and clutches? The 6BT was used in a lot of applications other than Dodge trucks, and SAE spec parts should be available for it, and probably a whole lot cheaper.

I've got a 6.2 sitting out in the barn that I bought with the intention of swapping into the Cherokee. Turns out two of the cylinders were pretty rusty, so I am tearing it down and parting it out to recoup my money. I just can't justify putting money into it when it will be worth next to nothing when its done. I picked up a Cummins B3.3 this past weekend which will need to be rebuilt. At least when it is done, if I need to move it, I will be able to get my money back out of it.
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'55 Willys Wagon, the original FSJ
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Isuzu 6BD1, NV4500, NP241
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  #4  
Old 11-18-2008, 10:30 AM
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uglyjeep uglyjeep is offline
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The more I think about it, the more I like that idea. I recently found a driveable 91 ram with a 6bt and manual trans, for 1500. I wonder if the guy still has it...
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The eternal project -'88 6.2 diesel, '75 cherokee chassis, t-18 & dana 20, & WT dana 44's, front lock right, '67 j-3000 cab ('75 dash & pedals, '67 column, "leather" astro bench), '3? IH bed, 32" mtr's
Almost drivable!

'66 cj-6a tuxedo park - 225 v-6, bds 3" lift, ft disc brakes, PTO winch, OBA, Mobi-Arc OBW
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  #5  
Old 11-22-2008, 12:52 AM
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uglyjeep uglyjeep is offline
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I just found a running 4bta locally for under a grand! I'm going to check it out tommorrow. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that its as described. If it is, I'll have to sell all my 6.2 stuff .
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The eternal project -'88 6.2 diesel, '75 cherokee chassis, t-18 & dana 20, & WT dana 44's, front lock right, '67 j-3000 cab ('75 dash & pedals, '67 column, "leather" astro bench), '3? IH bed, 32" mtr's
Almost drivable!

'66 cj-6a tuxedo park - 225 v-6, bds 3" lift, ft disc brakes, PTO winch, OBA, Mobi-Arc OBW
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  #6  
Old 11-22-2008, 08:00 AM
VonBoomenstien VonBoomenstien is offline
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if you are going to swap take your time and get the best. why do all the work for 2nd or 3rd best? 6bt wieghs 1250 lbs but will give you 500k and if you get the 12 valve everything is mechanical and the electrical is a positive and a negative wire and you are done. have you ever driven a vehicle with the 3035? my experience with military trucks is if it has a clutch you are going to need knee replacement surgery by the time you get to where you are going.

You can find a 97 or older dodge with an automatic for $5000 sometimes less if you are lucky and then you have everything you need including a suspension designed for the weight and torque.

i know what your thinking because everyone who sees my project has better ideas (in there opinion) then what i am planning but you will be driving it so make sure its exactly what you want
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  #7  
Old 11-22-2008, 11:50 AM
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gotmike gotmike is offline
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he's got a point on making it what YOU want... but the dodge 12v has a dana 60 up front and a dana 70 out back... so if you swap out most all of the suspension or add some aftermarket bits to the help the suspension handle the load then you can have a really soft ride with all that torque... and if you keep the dodge manual tranny then you've got the advantage of a hydraulic clutch...
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  #8  
Old 11-22-2008, 05:30 PM
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In my opinion, as long as he's not going to do much towing, a 4BT is perfect for a FSJ. Just a bit heavier than a V8, short enough to fit very easily and not the vibrating monster people describe. It is also light enough not to need anything heavier than D44's for road use.

I have a mostly stock one in my J300 and at stock power levels (105HP, 275 ft-lbs) it moves quite nicely. I would say it feels like the Buick 350 2bbl I once had in the truck. And there is a lot more power to be had without spending much money, but I don't want to start messing with the pump until I have a pyrometer.
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Last edited by Mikel : 11-22-2008 at 05:35 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-22-2008, 06:30 PM
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uglyjeep uglyjeep is offline
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As far as the 4bt locally, it's basically a long block that needs a rebuild. I know it is probably worth it as a core, but I wouldn't be able to get it on the road without spending copious amounts of money . Bugger.
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The eternal project -'88 6.2 diesel, '75 cherokee chassis, t-18 & dana 20, & WT dana 44's, front lock right, '67 j-3000 cab ('75 dash & pedals, '67 column, "leather" astro bench), '3? IH bed, 32" mtr's
Almost drivable!

'66 cj-6a tuxedo park - 225 v-6, bds 3" lift, ft disc brakes, PTO winch, OBA, Mobi-Arc OBW
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  #10  
Old 11-22-2008, 09:49 PM
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JeepinPete JeepinPete is offline
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Another diesel you might want to consider is the Isuzu 4BD1T, used in Isuzu NPR cab over trucks. Very similar specs to a 4BT power wise and economy wise. They aren't in nearly the demand as a 4BT, so your odds of finding one "cheap" is much greater. And if it needs a rebuild, they are much easier to do since they use a cylinder liner. No machine work required, just pull the old liner, and install the new one.
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'55 Willys Wagon, the original FSJ
Sitting on a '77 Cherokee frame, Dodge D60's
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  #11  
Old 11-23-2008, 08:29 AM
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The PIG Smith The PIG Smith is offline
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Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uglyjeep
As far as the 4bt locally, it's basically a long block that needs a rebuild. I know it is probably worth it as a core, but I wouldn't be able to get it on the road without spending copious amounts of money . Bugger.
I know the Cummins 4BT your are looking is just a long block, but one reason it is pricey, is that the Cummins 4BT are highly sought after.
This is due to their compact size and power potential.
If you get the Cummins 4BT seller down to a price you could afford, I would jump on it.
There is a whole community devoted to just this engine and swapping it into other vehicles.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/index.php

I would store that 4BT core, collect parts to rebuild it and other parts for the swap, like the transmission adapter, motor mounts,
Diesel prepped transmission if automatic, etc.
It would be a long term project.

This exactly what I am doing, collecting parts and pieces, when I can and when that become available.
I also have a very limited budget as I have a wife and three kids to take care of and WAY to many hobbies and projects.

Cummins Adapter
The Cummins B Series engine, 6BT and 4BT are generic engines, designed to fit most any type of transmission, pump, compressor, etc...
How Cummins achieves this is by the means of an adapter on the back of the engine.
The rear of the engine is not set up for any particular application, but for this adapter that is set up for most anything.
There are manufacturers that build an adapter for the things Cummins did not.
Destroked is one such vendor
http://destroked.com/parts.shtml

This adapter is another reason why Cummins B Series engines, especially the smaller 4BT are highly desirable.
Cummins builds a SAE adapter that would be a bolt it for that Spicer 3053.
Because most folks opt for more popular automotive transmissions, like GM and Dodge units, that SAE adapter can be had for little or nothing.
Lot of folks do not care to mess with a tranny that appears to be as big as the 3053 (which it really is not) and has the odd shifter pattern.
Another SAE tranny that work great behind a Cummins B Series engine is the Fuller Roadranger 6 Speed FSO-6406a.
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1982 J10: Current Project, goal to be roadworthy in 2017: No Cab Brow!
1981 J20: Commercial flat bed. Long term Project: RUST! No Cab Brow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrodoh
...but if it works, I wouldn't touch it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindel
Best laid plans, yada yada yada...
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  #12  
Old 11-23-2008, 08:34 AM
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The PIG Smith The PIG Smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepinPete
Another diesel you might want to consider is the Isuzu 4BD1T, used in Isuzu NPR cab over trucks. Very similar specs to a 4BT power wise and economy wise. They aren't in nearly the demand as a 4BT, so your odds of finding one "cheap" is much greater. And if it needs a rebuild, they are much easier to do since they use a cylinder liner. No machine work required, just pull the old liner, and install the new one.
Do you know if the Cummins B series engines use cylinder liners like the larger Cummins found in the over the road semis???
I've searched and tried to find the answer, but I not for sure.
Some yes, some say no.
I tend to think not, but I really wish and hope they do!

If a Cummins 4BT uses cylinder liners, then that would rebuilding a snap and with no machine work, low cost, also!
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2005 Grand Cherokee Limited - HEMI! Current Daily Driver
1982 J10: Current Project, goal to be roadworthy in 2017: No Cab Brow!
1981 J20: Commercial flat bed. Long term Project: RUST! No Cab Brow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrodoh
...but if it works, I wouldn't touch it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindel
Best laid plans, yada yada yada...

Last edited by The PIG Smith : 09-18-2009 at 12:24 PM.
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  #13  
Old 11-23-2008, 08:36 AM
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Mikel Mikel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The PIG Smith
Do you know if the Cummins B series engines use cylinder liners like the larger Cummins found in the over the road semis.
I've searched and tried to find the answer, but I not for sure.
Some yes, some say no.
I tend to think not, but I really wish and hope they do!

If a Cummins 4BT uses cylinder liners, then that would rebuilding a snap and with no machine work, low cost, also!


Nope.

www.metsmachineshop.com/images/00289.JPG
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Last edited by Mikel : 11-23-2008 at 08:38 AM.
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  #14  
Old 11-23-2008, 09:14 AM
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The PIG Smith The PIG Smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel
Bummer!
A picture is worth a thousand words...to bad that picture means a thousand dollars.
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Bryan Smith
2005 Grand Cherokee Limited - HEMI! Current Daily Driver
1982 J10: Current Project, goal to be roadworthy in 2017: No Cab Brow!
1981 J20: Commercial flat bed. Long term Project: RUST! No Cab Brow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrodoh
...but if it works, I wouldn't touch it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindel
Best laid plans, yada yada yada...

Last edited by The PIG Smith : 05-05-2011 at 04:10 PM.
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  #15  
Old 02-24-2009, 07:09 PM
tgreening tgreening is offline
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Whats your expected budget for a diesel engine? I just picked an aftercooled Cummins factory remaned 4bt with 44K on the clock, all the front accessories, air filter assembly and plumbing, along with an attached TH-475 tranny for $2200. They are a shade west of toledo, just a hop and skip from you, so a pickup truck would make for an easy grab. If you are interested send me a PM and I can shoot you the info. I'm sure they have more.
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  #16  
Old 02-24-2009, 07:26 PM
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COLOFIREMAN COLOFIREMAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The PIG Smith
I know the Cummins 4BT your are looking is just a long block, but one reason it is pricey, is that the Cummins 4BT are highly sought after.
This is due to their compact size and power potential.
If you get the Cummins 4BT seller down to a price you could afford, I would jump on it.
There is a whole community devoted to just this engine and swapping it into other vehicles.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/index.php

I would store that 4BT core, collect parts to rebuild it and other parts for the swap, like the transmission adapter, motor mounts,
Diesel prepped transmission if automatic, etc.
It would be a long term project.

This exactly what I am doing, collecting parts and pieces, when I can and when that become available.
I also have a very limited budget as I have a wife and three kids to take care of and WAY to many hobbies and projects.

Cummins Adapter
The Cummins B Series engine, 6BT and 4BT are generic engines, designed to fit most any type of transmission, pump, compressor, etc...
How Cummins achieves this is by the means of an adapter on the back of the engine.
The rear of the engine is not set up for any particular application, but for this adapter that is set up for most anything.
There are manufacturers that build an adapter for the things Cummins did not.
Destroked is one such vendor
http://destroked.com/parts.shtml

This adapter is another reason why Cummins B Series engines, especially the smaller 4BT are highly desirable.
Cummins builds a SAE adapter that would be a bolt it for that Spicer 3053.
Because most folks opt for more popular automotive transmissions, like GM and Dodge units, that SAE adapter can be had for little or nothing.
Lot of folks do not care to mess with a tranny that appears to be as big as the 3053 (which it really is not) and has the odd shifter pattern.
Another SAE tranny that work great behind a Cummins B Series engine is the Fuller Roadranger 6 Speed FSO-6406a.


Really though I've been at that same crossroads and ended up driving Chicago and buying a running driving ex-chip company delivery van. Pulled the motor on both vehicles and then had a baby, well the wife did. Anyways I'm all for the 4BT. It'll give you all the power you'll ever need unless like Mikel said your towing alot with heavy weight.
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  #17  
Old 02-24-2009, 08:07 PM
imiceman44 imiceman44 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uglyjeep
As far as the 4bt locally, it's basically a long block that needs a rebuild. I know it is probably worth it as a core, but I wouldn't be able to get it on the road without spending copious amounts of money . Bugger.

What is the machinework you need done?
Is it to mate the 6.2 to the 3053a?
I have the right belhousing if you need that.
Then again I might trade you the 6.2 and the 3053a and what ever parts come with for my waggy
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  #18  
Old 02-24-2009, 10:15 PM
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uglyjeep uglyjeep is offline
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The machining was to get the engine balanced for the heavy flywheel and clutch. I have the bellhousing, adapter plate, flywheel, starter, etc. along with a brand new clutch kit. I don't have the trans, but they're relatively easy to get from a military vehicle part supplier. I do have a gasket/seal kit for the trans, though.
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The eternal project -'88 6.2 diesel, '75 cherokee chassis, t-18 & dana 20, & WT dana 44's, front lock right, '67 j-3000 cab ('75 dash & pedals, '67 column, "leather" astro bench), '3? IH bed, 32" mtr's
Almost drivable!

'66 cj-6a tuxedo park - 225 v-6, bds 3" lift, ft disc brakes, PTO winch, OBA, Mobi-Arc OBW
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  #19  
Old 02-25-2009, 01:14 AM
imiceman44 imiceman44 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uglyjeep
The machining was to get the engine balanced for the heavy flywheel and clutch. I have the bellhousing, adapter plate, flywheel, starter, etc. along with a brand new clutch kit. I don't have the trans, but they're relatively easy to get from a military vehicle part supplier. I do have a gasket/seal kit for the trans, though.

Oh I thought you already have it, because now that the mag published an article about how plentifull, strong and cheap these transmissions are, the prices went up to min $1000 according to my searches in the past 6 months.
That was the cheapest, some wanted up to $2000 for a take off, with unknown condition.
I could buy the whole truck from an auction for that much and use the multifuel engine with the trans.
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  #20  
Old 02-25-2009, 06:30 AM
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Eugene 1 Eugene 1 is offline
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maybe a souped up Mercedes 300td engine or other Mercedes diesel engine??
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