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  #1  
Old 05-13-2007, 06:19 PM
Woodchomper's Avatar
Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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Jeep Small Cap EFI distributor

A while ago I had this idea about converting a small cap GM HEI distributor for use in an AMC V8 engine. I even sent Zack (Z&M Jeeps) an email to see if he could make this style of distributor for me. Zack quickly responded with an offer to convert a large cap HEI distributor for EFI use but I really wanted a small cap HEI distributor so I didn't persue that avenue.

To my surprise, while searching ebay I find someone is making an HEI small cap distributor for AMC V8s. Now the question is: Does anyone have any experience using this distributor?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JEEP-AMC-CJ5-CJ7-GM-EFI-Distributor-V8-290-TO-401_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33690QQihZ016QQitem Z260116323092

I know it is easy to convert the motorcraft distributor for EFI use but this sure would clean up the wiring. Plus, you wouldn't need to find a place to mount the HEI ignition module since it would be in the distributor.
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  #2  
Old 05-13-2007, 07:23 PM
Wagoneerlover Wagoneerlover is offline
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You can have the big cap distributor and still have the ignition module and the other components inside the distributor. I could give you some pics of mine maybe, as I converted mine and everything is contained within the distributor.
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  #3  
Old 05-13-2007, 10:11 PM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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Wagoneerlover....Thanks, I'm already familiar with the large cap HEI conversion. Previously to finding out about this new distrubutor, I decided to modify the mortorcraft distributor rather then buy a large cap HEI distributor.

Now, given the option of buying a new large cap HEI distributor (and modifying it for computer timing control) or buying a small cap HEI distributor that needs no modifications, I think the small cap HEI would be the better deal. That is of course assuming that the purchase price of each distributor was about the same. Actually, the small cap HEI should be cheaper since it has fewer parts.

Since we're talking about the large cap HEI, the one thing I've always wondered is, "Why didn't GM ever use the large cap HEI for their TBI vehicles"? They could have put a block off plate for the vacuum advance and disabled the mechanical advance but instead they produced a new distributor (small cap HEI) for their TBI vehicles. I can't help but wonder if during their TBI development they found the coil in the cap was not compatible with computer controlled timing or something like that.
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  #4  
Old 05-14-2007, 02:54 AM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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Not sure what you are specifically asking about this dizzy but I take it that looks are more important then money for your build.

The Dizzy itself would be a plug and play with a GM TBI system for running fuel and spark control. Wouldn't be good for a fuel only system like the Howell that most on here seem to run.

The standard DS distr conversion can work just as well but may not be as eye appealing to some. Just make the mounting plate as part of the vacuum advance cover.








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Bill USN-1
Fuel Injection Moderator at BinderPlanet
Hamilton Fuel Injection
75 scout XLC 345/727/JPD300/3.73's/33's/4wdisc/hydroboost/EFI/OBA/OBW
1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS

Last edited by Bill USN-1 : 05-14-2007 at 10:29 AM.
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  #5  
Old 05-14-2007, 05:37 AM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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Actually, Bill USN-1, reliability is probably most important to me. If money was not important I would have bought a $2500 Edelbrock system and not spent any time in junkyards scouring them for EFI parts.

Anyway, I never said the small cap HEI was the best I just asked if anyone had any experience using this particular distributor and offered it up as another alternative to those doing EFI conversions.

For the people running the Howell system, distributor replacement is not an issue because like you said the Howell system is fuel only. In fact for those not familar w/the small cap HEI distributor, this distributor has no mechanical or vacuum advance and can only can only be used with a computer controlled engine management system.

Bill USN-1...I really like your conversion idea. In fact, I had already archived it some time ago. The IH website is an excellent resource for TBI conversions. If I end up converting my motorcraft distributor I'll probably do exactly what you suggested. Several people on this website have successfully converted motorcraft distributors for EFI control.

I just received an email from this ebay seller. He stated, " we are manufacturer for affordable fuel injection." I was not aware the AFI included a small cap HEI distributor with their EFI conversions. So...For those running the AFI EFI system, Is this the distributor they sent you? If so, please provide any comments you may have on this distributor.
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1981 J10 401 /727TF/NP208 /6" Superlift /CS-144
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  #6  
Old 05-14-2007, 06:16 AM
GWChris GWChris is offline
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From a reliability point of view, the last place I'd want the module would be inside the dizzy.

To understand why some of the decisions that result in the finished designes we see were made, you have to consider the whole process of manufacturing the vehicle. This includes the need to test the engines during production, and the desire to keep wiring costs to a minimum. From this point of view, making self-contained modules is beneficial, as is the one wire set-up. It does not mean that this is the best design from a performance or reliability standpoint. Engineering is a process of balancing competing constraints.

Last edited by GWChris : 05-14-2007 at 08:42 AM.
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  #7  
Old 05-14-2007, 06:36 AM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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GWChris....Great point. Believe me, I understand exactly what you are saying.
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1981 J10 401 /727TF/NP208 /6" Superlift /CS-144
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  #8  
Old 05-16-2007, 05:13 PM
bowtieman55 bowtieman55 is offline
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Location: Elizabeth City, NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodchomper
A while ago I had this idea about converting a small cap GM HEI distributor for use in an AMC V8 engine. I even sent Zack (Z&M Jeeps) an email to see if he could make this style of distributor for me. Zack quickly responded with an offer to convert a large cap HEI distributor for EFI use but I really wanted a small cap HEI distributor so I didn't persue that avenue.

To my surprise, while searching ebay I find someone is making an HEI small cap distributor for AMC V8s. Now the question is: Does anyone have any experience using this distributor?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JEEP-AMC-CJ5-CJ7-GM-EFI-Distributor-V8-290-TO-401_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33690QQihZ016QQitem Z260116323092

I know it is easy to convert the motorcraft distributor for EFI use but this sure would clean up the wiring. Plus, you wouldn't need to find a place to mount the HEI ignition module since it would be in the distributor.

I don't mean to "hack" or anything, but is this the distributor I would want to use if I were to go to a GM TBI setup?
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  #9  
Old 05-16-2007, 08:10 PM
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Rogue Rogue is offline
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Join Date: Nov 17, 2001
Location: FLORIDA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWChris
From a reliability point of view, the last place I'd want the module would be inside the dizzy.

To understand why some of the decisions that result in the finished designes we see were made, you have to consider the whole process of manufacturing the vehicle. This includes the need to test the engines during production, and the desire to keep wiring costs to a minimum. From this point of view, making self-contained modules is beneficial, as is the one wire set-up. It does not mean that this is the best design from a performance or reliability standpoint. Engineering is a process of balancing competing constraints.

I hear ya bro, however, I have logged 200k on my s10 with the module in the distributor. replace module once due to failure. also have logged mucho grande miles on a 72 chebbie w/ hei and current firebird w/hei.... module is too far away to be the victim of a misfire in the cap, the misfire would either crossfire or find its way throught he rotor button before it would make it to the module... but anyhow... thats about as debateable as pushrods vs. overhead cam... more than one way to skin a cat..... and electrical theory is just that - theory.
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  #10  
Old 05-17-2007, 03:38 PM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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Location: Saint Charles, Missouri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWChris
Engineering is a process of balancing competing constraints.

GWChris...I really like this quote. I actually plan to use it the next time management beats down on my team to meet schedule.


Anyway, back to the thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtieman55
I don't mean to "hack" or anything, but is this the distributor I would want to use if I were to go to a GM TBI setup?

bowtieman55...At the risk of sounding like looks are more important than money (LOL Bill USN-1), here are some distributor options I've considered for converting an AMC V8 to TBI.








Convert motorcraft distributor for TBI (cheapest option):
Pros
1. Large Distributor Cap (see TFI conversion)
2. Great distributor pickup
3. Easy conversion to remove vacuum and mech advance.
4. Uses off-the-shelf parts (cap, rotor, etc.)
Cons
1.Age and condition of distributor.
2.Need an external mount location for 7-pin GM HEI module (preferrably w/heatsink).
3. Conversion needed for TBI use.
4. Need to buy 7-pin HEI module.





Z&M Jeeps HEI ($250 + $25 for new gear):


http://www.zmjeeps.com/hei_8.php
Pros
1. Zack makes a great product.
2. You could run this distributor before actually doing your TBI conversion.
3. Includes Coil-in-cap, this means no need for mounting an external coil.
4. Uses off-the-shelf parts (cap, rotor, coil, module, etc.)
Cons
1. Conversion needed for TBI use.
2. Need to buy 7-pin HEI modile







Proform HEI ($230 at BJ's Offroad):



http://www.bjsoffroad.com/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=820&cid=12
Pros
1. You could run this distributor before actually doing your TBI conversion.
2. Includes Coil-in-cap
3. Uses off-the-shelf parts (cap, rotor, coil, module, etc.)
Cons
1. Conversion needed for TBI use.
2. Need to buy 7-pin HEI module.







MSD p/n 8519 ($274 at Summit):



http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD-8519&N=700+400122+308148+115&autoview=sku
Pros
1. Good product name.
2. Billet construction.
3. Easy conversion to remove vacuum and mech advance.
4. Will work with TFI coil.
Cons
1. Uses MSD specility parts (cap, rotor).
2. Need to buy 7-pin HEI module.







Smallcap EFI (TBI Ready) Distributor ($395 at AFI):



http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/amc-system.htm
Pros
1. No conversion needed.
2. Off-the shelf parts (cap, rotor, module, etc.)
Cons
1. Price
2. Price






Smallcap EFI (TBI Ready) Distributor - email Brian at heidizzy@earthlink.net


($215 w/no gear, $225 w/gear + $15 Shipping)
Pros
1. No conversion needed.
2. Billet consrtuction.
3. Off-the-shelf parts (cap, rotor, module, etc.)
Cons
1. No history on this product or vendor
2. Not sure if TFI coil is compatible.




Davis Unified Ignition (D.U.I.) HEI Distributor ($379)


http://www.performancedistributors.com/amcdui.htm
Pros
1. Proven reliability.
2. Off-the-shelf parts.
Cons
1. Price.
2. Conversion needed for TBI use.










I guess we should be grateful to have so many options. I would appreciate any input on anything I may have missed. But, please let's not turn this into a pi**ing contest of why you think your option is the only one that everyone should use.


I am especially interested to know if anyone is currently using an AFI distributor or if anyone has purchased a distributor from the seller "HEI Dizzy".

Thanks,

Rich B.










__________________
1991 GW 401 /727TF/NP229 /4" Skyjacker /EBL TBI /CS-144
1981 J10 401 /727TF/NP208 /6" Superlift /CS-144

Last edited by Woodchomper : 05-18-2007 at 06:01 AM. Reason: update
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  #11  
Old 05-17-2007, 03:44 PM
bowtieman55 bowtieman55 is offline
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NIIIICE...
Thanks for the heads up, Rich.
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  #12  
Old 05-17-2007, 09:34 PM
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Rogue Rogue is offline
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you forgot DUI or Davis Unified Ignition and that was MY small cap tbi and MY large cap HEI EXPERIENCE not opinion AND GM did have a large cap computer controlled timing 7pin.
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  #13  
Old 05-18-2007, 06:15 AM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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Rogue....I added the DUI option to the list. I actually had ruled them out earlier in my quest for distributors mainly due to price. Hovever, your experience shows that you get what you pay for, and DUI has served you well.
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1981 J10 401 /727TF/NP208 /6" Superlift /CS-144
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  #14  
Old 06-02-2007, 01:34 PM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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Well I bit the bullet and bought two of these distributors. One for my Wagoneer and one for a 304 CJ5 TBI conversion that I was helping my local Jeep shop perform. As it turned out, both distributors needed rework to fit. The vendor was OK with returning my emails but I felt that I was stuck with finding my own solution to fixing his product.

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong but I'd like to think if I made and sold a product that didn't work that I'd be so embarrased that I'd do whatever I could to right the situation. Anyway, here is the response I sent to the vendor:
Quote:
Brian,

Here are the actions taken to fit your distributors:

1. AMC EFI - no gear:
Distributor shaft (at oil pump drive end) needed additional clearancing to allow distributor to fully seat in AMC timing cover. Approximately 0.120" was removed from the end of the shaft and both sides of the shaft. This would indicate shaft dimension was too long so the end of the shaft as well as the shoulder areas were filed down to essentially move everything up.

2. AMC EFI - w/gear:
Bushing was interferring with oil pump shaft resulting in distributor not fully seating in timing cover. On this distributor the bushing was removed and ground down to allow the distributor to seat in the timing cover.

Conclusion:
Your AMC product needs more attention to detail before leaving your facility. I would recommend you consider obtaining an AMC timing cover (with the oil pump installed) and then perform a test fit before shipping out any distributors. Also, for the distributors shipped without gears a machined bushing should be shipped with them. The outer diameter should be set to .490" and the inner diameter at 11mm. This would help poeple that do not have access to a machine shop.

All in all I think you have a decent product and I wish you well in your business endeavors. However, at this time I cannot wholeheartly recommend your product to my fellow Jeep enthusiasts due to the fitment issues. Hopefully youl will consider some of my suggestions and improve your AMC product.

Respectfully,

Rich B.


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  #15  
Old 06-02-2007, 09:48 PM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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I just received a reply from the email I sent to the AMC EFI distributor vendor. So at least it looks like he is concerned about improving his product.

Quote:
Hi Rich

thanks for the input
its a new conversion for us
so your help is greatly appreciated
we will follow your advice

brian



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  #16  
Old 06-03-2007, 08:50 AM
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PlumCrazy PlumCrazy is offline
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I like when they reply in a good way...not the, "Well no one has ever complained before. Ever!" route. Much better on the business end.

Me, I have never liked the coil-in-cap design...just too much heat in one spot. That said, I'll probably do an HEI rather than Pertronix in my convertible so I have something to compare.

Wayne S
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  #17  
Old 06-03-2007, 09:41 AM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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PlumCrazy....I feel the same way about the coil-in-cap design. That's why I wanted to try this guy's distributor. He is the only vendor I know of that uses a TBI (small cap) distributor top on an AMC base. In other words, the coil and cap are seperate just like the '87-'95 GM TBI vehicles.

This also makes wiring the fuel injection easier. If you use a GM coil then you can use the GM harness connectors for the distributor and coil.

Rich B.
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  #18  
Old 03-10-2008, 10:24 PM
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spazinweasel spazinweasel is offline
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Location: elizabeth colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodchomper
GWChris...I really like this quote. I actually plan to use it the next time management beats down on my team to meet schedule.


Anyway, back to the thread


bowtieman55...At the risk of sounding like looks are more important than money (LOL Bill USN-1), here are some distributor options I've considered for converting an AMC V8 to TBI.










Convert motorcraft distributor for TBI (cheapest option):
Pros
1. Large Distributor Cap (see TFI conversion)
2. Great distributor pickup
3. Easy conversion to remove vacuum and mech advance.
4. Uses off-the-shelf parts (cap, rotor, etc.)
Cons
1.Age and condition of distributor.
2.Need an external mount location for 7-pin GM HEI module (preferrably w/heatsink).
3. Conversion needed for TBI use.
4. Need to buy 7-pin HEI module.







Z&M Jeeps HEI ($250 + $25 for new gear):




http://www.zmjeeps.com/hei_8.php
Pros
1. Zack makes a great product.
2. You could run this distributor before actually doing your TBI conversion.
3. Includes Coil-in-cap, this means no need for mounting an external coil.
4. Uses off-the-shelf parts (cap, rotor, coil, module, etc.)
Cons
1. Conversion needed for TBI use.
2. Need to buy 7-pin HEI modile









Proform HEI ($230 at BJ's Offroad):





http://www.bjsoffroad.com/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=820&cid=12
Pros
1. You could run this distributor before actually doing your TBI conversion.
2. Includes Coil-in-cap
3. Uses off-the-shelf parts (cap, rotor, coil, module, etc.)
Cons
1. Conversion needed for TBI use.
2. Need to buy 7-pin HEI module.









MSD p/n 8519 ($274 at Summit):





http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD-8519&N=700+400122+308148+115&autoview=sku
Pros
1. Good product name.
2. Billet construction.
3. Easy conversion to remove vacuum and mech advance.
4. Will work with TFI coil.
Cons
1. Uses MSD specility parts (cap, rotor).
2. Need to buy 7-pin HEI module.









Smallcap EFI (TBI Ready) Distributor ($395 at AFI):





http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/amc-system.htm
Pros
1. No conversion needed.
2. Off-the shelf parts (cap, rotor, module, etc.)
Cons
1. Price
2. Price








Smallcap EFI (TBI Ready) Distributor - email Brian at heidizzy@earthlink.net




($215 w/no gear, $225 w/gear + $15 Shipping)
Pros
1. No conversion needed.
2. Billet consrtuction.
3. Off-the-shelf parts (cap, rotor, module, etc.)
Cons
1. No history on this product or vendor
2. Not sure if TFI coil is compatible.






Davis Unified Ignition (D.U.I.) HEI Distributor ($379)




http://www.performancedistributors.com/amcdui.htm
Pros
1. Proven reliability.
2. Off-the-shelf parts.
Cons
1. Price.
2. Conversion needed for TBI use.














I guess we should be grateful to have so many options. I would appreciate any input on anything I may have missed. But, please let's not turn this into a pi**ing contest of why you think your option is the only one that everyone should use.


I am especially interested to know if anyone is currently using an AFI distributor or if anyone has purchased a distributor from the seller "HEI Dizzy".

Thanks,

Rich B.











i have the afi kit w/ distributor it is just a converted aftermarket performance dist. i would have converted my old one if i had known that and the ignition module is external on the afi also
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  #19  
Old 03-11-2008, 11:08 AM
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crispyboy crispyboy is offline
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Location: Alexandria, Kentucky
Posts: 2,311
Not sure if this is relevant to this discussion but when I installed my Customefis (tbi) system I used the original distributer minus the vacuum advance weights/springs and a GM 4 pin module. The GM module gets mounted on the fender and splices into the original module wiring. I'll take pics sometime if anyone is interested.
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  #20  
Old 03-11-2008, 11:55 AM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Dec 17, 2002
Location: Saint Charles, Missouri
Posts: 923
For what it's worth I'm running a converted Motorcraft distributor now.

The distributor I bought from HEIDIZZY decided to eat my cam gear at about 100 miles into the EFI conversion. The HEIDIZZY guy provided all the parts to rebuild the distributor I bought from him. However, when all was said and done I didn't trust his product enough to risk destroying my engine.

As far as I know there are still no reliable vendors that produce a Small Cap EFI distributor for the AMC V8. Granted this is probably no big deal since it is so easy to convert the Motorcraft distributor, but it would be nice to have that option.

One last thing on mounting the 7-pin HEI module, on GM applications the module is mounted to the distributor with thermal paste between the distributor base and module. For our applications where we mount the 7-pin module externally it is important to have a good heat transfer for the module. Also I'm a little weary on mounting the module too far away from the distributor because of niose interference on the two distributor pick-up wires.

Rich B.
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