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  #1  
Old 01-20-2009, 11:51 AM
lockedcj7 lockedcj7 is offline
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Decisions...decisions...

Hey guys. I'm new to the board and to FSJs. I've owned and built a CJ so I'm not completely new to Jeep tech. I've also been reading everything I can here, at Jeep forum and the 715zone.

A few weeks ago I was without a Jeep and now I have two! I was lusting for an M-715 and I've been unable to find one within 300 mi. that was in my price range. The desire to get started on another Jeep project was too strong and I bought a '77 J-10. My goal is to build it to resemble an M-715 but with a more wife-friendly interior. The finished product will have M-715 fenders, bed and brush-guard with a J10 cab and frame. I'm wanting to stuff the biggest tires I can get under it with as little lift as possible. It looks like it's going to have a fuel-injected Dodge 360 (only because I happen to have one). Transmission and t-case are yet to be determined but I might be keeping the combo from the J10. The transmission is a 4-speed of undetermined type and it has a non QT t-case. It originally had a 258 according to the VIN decoder but now it has a shot AMC 360. God only knows what transmission and t-case the PO put in it.

I also bought an '83 360/AT/QT Grand Wagoneer to get the tilt column, front seat, engine and lots of small parts.

Meanwhile, I drove a CJ-7 again and it felt like I was putting on an old shoe. I'm now questioning my decision to buy the FSJs. I know they're worth more than I paid for them as they both have lots of desirable parts. Now the question is:

Should I continue with my original plans, sell the FSJs and keep looking for an M-715 or forget it all and go back to a CJ-7?

Here are my requirements for the finished vehicle:
Keep up with my baby-Jeep friends at Tellico.
Drive on the road now and then.
Carry my wife and son in relative comfort.
Not pass myself going down the road.

FWIW - I'm well aware that the AMC and Dodge 360s are not the same and will require just as much work (if not more) than swapping in a SBC or Ford.
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:05 PM
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Lindel Lindel is offline
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Most likely it has the same tranny and t/c as stock, probably a T-18 and D-20. In 77 the only 2 choices for t/c would be a QT or a D-20. The QT only came with the TH400.

The 77 will surprise you on the trails, and you'll be able to keep up with your friends, and probably have to fight the temptation not to drive over the top of them!

With M715 style fenders/flares, you'll be able to stuff big tires into the holes!

Obviously, this is not the place to come to ask if you should keep the J-10, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised if you do.
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  #3  
Old 01-20-2009, 12:19 PM
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4x4fEvEr 4x4fEvEr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockedcj7

Here are my requirements for the finished vehicle:
Keep up with my baby-Jeep friends at Tellico.

Hahahahahaha. Are u joking? Man fsj's are what's hot and will walk the doggy around babyjeeps, just don't be afraid of wrinkled sheetmetal. Ill never own a cj again now that I've had a fsj.

Sell that good tranny and tcase should be t-18 and D20 and get a NV4500 for that 5.9 and whatever tcase. M715 can fit 38's with no lift so grab some dana 60's slap it all together and make your friends jealous
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:04 PM
tgreening tgreening is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4fEvEr
Hahahahahaha. Are u joking? Man fsj's are what's hot and will walk the doggy around babyjeeps, just don't be afraid of wrinkled sheetmetal. Ill never own a cj again now that I've had a fsj.

Sell that good tranny and tcase should be t-18 and D20 and get a NV4500 for that 5.9 and whatever tcase. M715 can fit 38's with no lift so grab some dana 60's slap it all together and make your friends jealous



Bahhh. I've got both and I say there is NO place a FSJ can go that I can't, with no more assistance than a winch. OTOH, there are MANY place my so called Baby Jeep will go that a FSJ doesn't stand a chance of following without a chainsaw or bulldozer.

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78 J10, 360, Q/T, auto. Sacrificial lamb.
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75 J20, 360, Q/T, auto. Reprieved sacrifice.
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  #5  
Old 01-20-2009, 06:34 PM
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4x4fEvEr 4x4fEvEr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreening
Bahhh. I've got both and I say there is NO place a FSJ can go that I can't, with no more assistance than a winch. OTOH, there are MANY place my so called Baby Jeep will go that a FSJ doesn't stand a chance of following without a chainsaw or bulldozer.


Ill take the pepsi challenge on that one. If your sig is all you got how can you compare built baby jeeps to nothing. Like I said damged sheet metal will ensue with a fsj but I will follow
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  #6  
Old 01-22-2009, 05:52 PM
lockedcj7 lockedcj7 is offline
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Thanks for the opinions. I knew if I posted the question here that I would get the answer I was looking for. Now for a more technical question...

I have a '94 or '95 Dodge 5.9L that I'm thinking of using. Novak has the motor mounts. I pretty sure I have a T18/D20 behind the 360 now but I can't find an adapter bellhousing to mate the Dodge motor to the T18.

I know Dodge used a version of the NP435 and it should bolt up to the engine. Presuming I can find one, what t-cases did Dodge use with them? Is it driver's side or Pax? If they are driver's-side drop, I have an '83 QT Grand Wagoneer that I could use the axles off of until I go to D60s. OR, I could drop the $500 for the adapter to mate the NP435 to the D20.

The other option is to sell the 5.9 and build one of the AMC 360s that I have. This seems like more work since I'd want to add EFI. I would like to "keep it Jeep" as much as possible so using the Dodge motor rubs me a little.

Advice??? Opinions???
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  #7  
Old 01-22-2009, 07:30 PM
tgreening tgreening is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4fEvEr
Ill take the pepsi challenge on that one. If your sig is all you got how can you compare built baby jeeps to nothing. Like I said damged sheet metal will ensue with a fsj but I will follow

Sorry, the sig is missing one 6" lifted Waggy daily driver.

There are places I've gone a FSJ wouldnt be able to follow just due to it's size, sheet metal be d*mned. Of course there are places I've watched guys in Sammys go that I couldn't follow in my CJ, due to its size.

I see it a lot on this site. Baby jeep this and baby jeep that and har har har you should have seen them trying to climb the ledge my FSJ just walked right up. Blah blah. Of course we wont talk about the tight trails that a FSJ cant navigate because the wheel base is too long and the body is too wide, or the rises a SWB jeep can pass but the FSJ gets high centered on because of its long wheel base.

The point is there are places that a FSJ cant go, places my CJ cant go, places the Sammy can't go, all the way down to about the only thing that CAN go is a tree huggin hippie in hiking boots.


The Baby Jeep thing smacks of elitism and I don"t care for that. To me they're all Jeeps and they all have their place and and and, can't we all just get along?
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77 CJ5, V8, 33's
94 Cherokee, 31's
68 J-3000, 232, 3 on the tree (under the knife soon)
78 J10, 360, Q/T, auto. Sacrificial lamb.
78 J20, 360, Q/T auto. Future unknown.
75 J20, 360, Q/T, auto. Reprieved sacrifice.
73 J20, 232, D20, 3spd. Axle sacrifice
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  #8  
Old 01-22-2009, 07:34 PM
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Lindel Lindel is offline
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Look at www.summitracing.com or www.jegs.com for a "universal" bell housing, or look at the lakewood bell housings. You should be able to find something that will work for you.

If you've got the spacer that goes between the bellhousing and tranny, you'll need to keep it. If not, you'll need to get it.

You might put a post in the wanted forum for the bellhousing.



The main reason they get called "baby" jeeps here is because they're smaller than the FSJ, it's not usually intended as an insult. More than a few of the members here own the smaller jeeps for us to talk them down as a general rule. That said, take the FSJ wheeling a few times, you'll be surprised, trust me.
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Last edited by Lindel : 01-22-2009 at 07:38 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-22-2009, 08:27 PM
tgreening tgreening is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindel
The main reason they get called "baby" jeeps here is because they're smaller than the FSJ, it's not usually intended as an insult. More than a few of the members here own the smaller jeeps for us to talk them down as a general rule. That said, take the FSJ wheeling a few times, you'll be surprised, trust me.


Point taken. For the record, I don't doubt the off-road prowess. My first wheeler was a full-size late 70's Ford.
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83-ish V8 CJ/7 SOA 37" MTR
79 CJ7 Q/T, 258, 31's
77 CJ5, V8, 33's
94 Cherokee, 31's
68 J-3000, 232, 3 on the tree (under the knife soon)
78 J10, 360, Q/T, auto. Sacrificial lamb.
78 J20, 360, Q/T auto. Future unknown.
75 J20, 360, Q/T, auto. Reprieved sacrifice.
73 J20, 232, D20, 3spd. Axle sacrifice
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  #10  
Old 01-23-2009, 03:13 PM
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jode jode is offline
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Sorry - just have to chime in on the baby jeep arguement cuz you hit me in a sensitive area here.

Back when I was trying to join a Jeepin club in ID, I was barred from one because my rig was too large. How does the wheelbase argument make sense if the CJ are all stretched and running on waggy axles (or worse, on full width D60s? The argument just don't hold water.

That being said, a CJ is generally a lighter rig, so there is certainly a better starting point for a wheeling rig, but as we all know, weight can be reduced from any vehicle, so that is a pretty lame arguement. Once they go under the mods, the sheetmetal is the only difference between a baby Jeep and an FSJ, so to argue that one can go places another can't is stupid. If you are going to go to that argument, you have to even the odds by talking only about a 100% bone stock rig against another stock rig. If there are modifications, then there is no comparison.

Just my $0.02
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:08 PM
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SnowShoe SnowShoe is offline
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Arrow

Wow...what a debate...tell us all what you really think...LOL
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Old 01-24-2009, 07:44 AM
eyotajeeper eyotajeeper is offline
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Just to add my $.02 worth. If you have a CJ and a FSJ which would sell faster and for more money?

IMHO in my area the CJ outsells the FSJ. Try to find a running driving CJ for less than a grand that isn't all rusted beyond safe. Then find a FSJ for less than a grand and drive it, usually with a good drive train and a decent body.

I love CJs and have had way more of them than fullsize. selling CJs is always easier.
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  #13  
Old 01-24-2009, 10:01 AM
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fulsizjeep fulsizjeep is offline
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I grew up in a family that owned Jeeps. All brands. Married into one too.

So I had a reality check while thinking about this "debate" and realized that if we owned a baby Jeep, we would still call it a baby Jeep. No big deal. The Dude abides.
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  #14  
Old 01-24-2009, 01:41 PM
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Rich88 Rich88 is offline
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You're asking if you should get the apple or the orange.

CJs and FSJs are completely different classes of vehicles, with different uses.

As far as capability goes, in a previous life-time I had a 76 Cherokee and belonged to an off-road group. I helped re-open the original Mojave trail between Needles and Barstow...about 100 miles of jagged trails, sand washes and everything in between. Most of the group had CJ & Land Cruisers. I had the only FSJ. And I never got stuck or destroyed, and could go anywhere anyone else did. And my only modifications were 31 tires, cut-out fender wells, and 2" lift blocks in the rear.

Otherwise, the main difference is your preference for cargo load vs gas mileage.
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  #15  
Old 01-25-2009, 10:26 AM
tgreening tgreening is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jode
Sorry - just have to chime in on the baby jeep arguement cuz you hit me in a sensitive area here.

Back when I was trying to join a Jeepin club in ID, I was barred from one because my rig was too large. How does the wheelbase argument make sense if the CJ are all stretched and running on waggy axles (or worse, on full width D60s? The argument just don't hold water.


Just my $0.02


I agree. I find it humorous that the CJ crowd that cried foul at the new "way too big" JK, are the same guys that think the best mod in the world for a CJ is full width axles and 18" wide boggers. Go figure. I'm no fan of the entire tire outside the flair mentality.

My CJ runs factory axles, with some run of the mill internal modification, spring over with 37" MTRs. It's worked for me for about 7 years now. Those are the types of CJs I'm talking about.

Someone else said you can't compare unless you are talking stock to stock and to a large extent I agree BUT, I still stand by what I said. Given a stock Cj vs stock FSJ there is no place you could go I couldnt with nothing more than a winch, but you'd need a chainsaw or bulldozer to follow me. (Of course your bed is big enough to carry most of that and my bed, well...we won't go there).
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83-ish V8 CJ/7 SOA 37" MTR
79 CJ7 Q/T, 258, 31's
77 CJ5, V8, 33's
94 Cherokee, 31's
68 J-3000, 232, 3 on the tree (under the knife soon)
78 J10, 360, Q/T, auto. Sacrificial lamb.
78 J20, 360, Q/T auto. Future unknown.
75 J20, 360, Q/T, auto. Reprieved sacrifice.
73 J20, 232, D20, 3spd. Axle sacrifice
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  #16  
Old 01-25-2009, 12:41 PM
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OK I'll toss in some pennies. I've had a CJ-5, 2 Grand Cherokees, Brother drives a Wrangler, a slew of Wagoneers, J-10s, currently own 2 running Full Size Cherokees, and a running CJ-7. My main issue with smaller Jeeps are just that they are smaller. I'm a full size guy so getting in and out of a smaller vehicle is like packing a gorilla into a VW beetle. With the FSJs there is lots of room to stretch out without my head hitting the roof or the person sitting next to me getting squashed by my shoulder. Also, I have owned beater FSJs that I would follow folks on 4 wheelers. If something got in my way then it either got brushed to one side or trampled over.

AS for CJs being more popular I've got a 76 CJ-7 Renegade loaded with every available option plus a hoard of new parts that I can't get a decent offer on but every time I drive my Cherokee someone will ask if it's for sale and offer more than what I paid for it. It all comes down to individual interest. I like them all because they are Jeep but the FSJ is the only one that fits me.....plus it just looks tougher.
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