What is so grand about a Wagoneer?

[joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panoscopic:
It is hard to believe this model lasted for 28 years, especially past 1980 when gas prices were at a record high, and people were standing at long lines at the pump and there were many, more sensible alternatives.
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It was a tried and true design that worked for what it was intended to do. Folks that bought these when they were new had money and didn't care what gas costs...they could afford it. It was targeted for a small market nit for everyone. Yup it was targeted to the rich older crowd just as a Porche is targeted to the younger rich crowd. These weren't planned to be sold to young poor college kids living on Top Ramen noodles.

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I have every document that associated with the car since it was delivered new, and two-inch thick pile of maintenance documents for the typical Wag maladies – rear window inoperative, leaking power steering pump, windows not working, rough idle, well, you know the drill. Seemed typical of what you would expect of AMC at that time, or any other car manufacturer ready to go bankrupt.
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Just because it's been to the dealer a lot doesn't mean it's been well maintained. Dealers thrive off repair work and will keep the process going as long as possible. So far as the rear windows, electric stuff goes that's not an AMC thing but a luxo cruiser thing. Any car that has a lot of power stuff will have power stuff fail. I've owned two Blazers and had the same prob with the rear window. It's inherent to the design where the window/gate is bathed in road dirt all the time.
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I remember when I borrowed the Wag for a weekend when it was new. I could not help but think that I could rent a compact car and the gas savings would pay for it versus driving the Wag.
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Again this vehicle wasn't targeted to people who need to borrow cars...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Think of the price of these cars. The original sticker in 1986 was $23,465. But that price, who would put up with such poor quality? For that kind of money, you could drive a Mercedes Benz, Land Rover, or a Toyota Land Cruiser or two Chevy Suburbans.
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I doubt the cost of living has doubled in 15 years but even so you ever price a decked out luxo 4x4 Suburban or a Range Rover?

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I was a person who was always attracted to German and Japanese sports sedans and always had these cars tuned to perfection.
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Your not exatly in the target market. You like fine tuned street cars. Nothing wrong with that at all but it would be like me whos loves to go hunting and buying a Honda Prelude?
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The horrendous fuel economy and regular repairs that occupied my every weekend were just too much for me
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You take "any" 5000 lb 4WD vehicle and compare the fuel mileage to a Wags. A loaded 4x4 Suburban, full size truck etc and they won't get any better. It take fuel to move this much weigh with this many gear boxes.
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The younger people just snicker as they blast past in their tuned Honda Civics.
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Keeping in mind the intended market...I'll bet the Civic folks quite snickering when the Wag turned off on a rutted muddy dirt road leading to the owners summer cabin. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I’ve now replaced Panoscopic with a new 2001 TJ as my daily driver. Yes, TJ is a crude road car too, but with modern build quality and engine control systems, it is a world of difference. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You've now got a car that has even more electro wizardry(wait till the dash shorts out), weighs 2/3 less, less room, less comfort etc and you gaind what 3-4 mpgs and car patments?
Not knocking your TJ at all but they too have their glitches and they can be expensive glitches.
Bottom line is FSJ's were built for a certain market and obviously you aren't in that market nor was I when these were built. Actually I'm still not in that market group that's why I run the earlier rigs that are more utility oriented rather than focusing on luxury. I don't like fixing all that elecro stuff either [img]smile.gif[/img]

[trickc]

Along the same lines as everyone else who has responded,I am on my 3rd fsj. I sold my first new vehicle I had ever purchased after the payments were done and had some spending money, started out looking for a cj but none in the "reasonable" price range were available. I responded to an ad for a 79 cherokee with "bented" fenders for $1000. later that day I drove it home with small dents in the flairs where the guys wife had hit the garage trying to park it.
As late as 91 I wanted one but certainly wasn't close to being able to afford one. The gas mileage issue: eh who cares,I'm going to buy gas anyway,I might as well have something that can pull the house down. I drive Buttercup every day as my daily driver back and forth to work while I'm making payments still on f 150 x cab xlt with all the bells and whistles BUT, I just like driving the old beater better. My Cherokee well its just a plaything now, if it weren't for alreday having the lockers and winch and all I'd cosider trading it for a waggy to ride the family around.

[JohnnyJ]

As another TJ and SJ owner (I've noticed there are a lot..), I would say the vehicles are completely different in their purpose. I drive the TJ to work everyday, and it has been on the trails more often due to the fact the Wag is in a state of constant upgrading. (It usually isn't broke, I just want it to be better.)

Sure, the TJ does great on the trails and rides decently on the road. It also has a big car payment and I know that one day it will start needing repairs; everything does when it gets older.

But, it is so ****ed cool driving a Wag down the road; and taking it on the trail is even better. Fitting four adults and their stuff is nice, the plush ride, more than enough power, etc.

I love the fact that last year when we took the Wag to Kentucky we were able to load my trail tires and my friend's trail tires in the back of my Wag, plus my camping gear, plus my tools and gitchaback box. The Wag didn't even notice.

This year, I am going to Tellico with the TJ, and I had to buy a small trailer to tow the tires so we can fit the rest of the stuff in the Jeep. It just ain't the same.

Yes, there are days that I curse my Wag, but I can't imagine wanting to get rid of it. It has a certain charm that the new Jeeps (and all other SUVs) just haven't captured.

Plus, take a look at the competition. Most of the US trucks designed in the early 60s were the same until the late 80s and early 90s. (Dodge early 60s thru 93, Chevy early 60s thru 87) They all just changed the sheet metal and seats.

[Jake_S]

My '84 GWag is my first FSJ. I bought her last Sept for $900. She had no emission equipment, stock carb, and a clogged cat with a holy tailpipe. I bought the Wag because I was tired of making payments, I had Subaru Impreza RS, and payiny $550 dollars every 3 months on insurance. The Wag was cheap, it's paid for, I lke working on it, and it hasn't broken down yet(knock on wood). I've replaced the carb and intake, put on a new exhaust, a new back window, and a new set of tires, all for lees than 3 of my old car payments.
Jake_S

[Hump]

I hear alot of bashing of the GW's reliability going on here. I don't know if I was just lucky, but my first FSJ was a nine year old '87 GW that I bought my junior year in high school. (that I will discuss shortly) Of course the windows would act up occasionally, and every once in a while I wouldn't hit the gas just right, and I would have to wait five minutes to start it. But in the year and a half that I owned it, it never let me down. I always got where I wanted to go...always. Even when I noticed a slight knock and checked it with a timing light, to my horror finding it at 49 deg., it still ran, and got me where I needed it to go.

Ok, back to me buying it when I was in high school. I don't know what kind of kids you live around, but I bought my because a buddy of mine had an '86 GW and it was the coolest thing around. We were both on the cross country team together, and between us could fit the entire guys and girls team in our Jeeps. (uhh...that's strickly off the record for you legal types) Everybody wanted to ride in the back with the window down. The shag carpet and the leather seats, power everything...need I say more. I only wish that college wasn't so danged expensive or I would still have that beast.

I've heard it said that it's something about the lines. I bought my second FSJ a '89 GW at a junk yard while I was picking up parts for my Volvo wagon (great cars too...but i'll save that for another forum) I saw it sitting there it had taken a hard hit well, and decided that I had to save it. Well $1300 later I had everything I needed to fix it (door, t-case, front spring, q-panel, grill...etc.) and I found that a majority of the rear frame was non existent. So I just enjoyed seeing it in my parents driveway until my dad made me get rid of it. The new owner has put a new frame under it, and has restored it with all of my parts. Makes me happy anyways.

Guess it is just a Jeep thing.

[Mikel2]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe H.:
, it was about a serious American alternative to the Range Rover class of lux-utes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, no, no. The Range Rover (and derivatives) were an alternative to the Wagoneer! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Dive 30]

Let's also remember what things were like when G-wags were in their prime.

You want an econobox? Honda or Toyota? I don't know where you guys grew up, but in Pierce, if it didn't come from Detroit (my Dad's '83 Cavalier was barely acceptable because it came from Canada) it should have stayed on the boat. Would you rather have a Pinto or Gremlin? Cavalier? Citation? How about an Escort or Reliant K car? Oh, wait you said safe and reliable . . .

Trucks? The paint on GMs were literally peeling in the dealer lots. The S-10s were POS (My step-dad had a New '85 Blazer, we couldn't keep it out of the shop, my Uncle had a GMC S-1500, same thing) and heaven forbid you be cursed with one of the new 'shift on the fly' 4wd, those vacuum systems are worse than the ones on our Jeeps and they haven't stopped making them!! Or how about the digital (My step-dad traded his Blazer for a new '88 K-1500, when the heat/AC/radio/everything unit went out the third time, he decided to buy a Ford) dashes of the late '80s?

When I pulled in to the Jeep dealer here in Coralville he came out to look at my G-Wag. He says: "Yeah, I remember people just driving in with their old one and just picking out a different color for their new one. Craziest thing you ever saw."'

The G-Wag was a steadfast vehicle when everything else was changing. There is a measure of comfort in knowing what you are going to get, good and bad.

My '85 G-Wag is paid for. When I go out in the morning, every morning, it starts. When things go wrong (ever dreamed of changing the belt in a Honda, Toyota or Mitsu? on my '88 Civic you had to literally drop the motor) I get out my manuals, spend some money on a part get it done. My Mom's 2000 Exploder has been in the shop four times this year (New tires twice, new transmission, ignition problem that they still haven't fixed) and she only gets 14-18mpg. Or how about $250.00 for the remote oil lines on my Dad's '96 Blazer? My step Dad's 2001 F-150 4x4 was rated the absolute worst in overall safety by the American Insurance Institute becuase it suffered "severe to fatal compromise of the passenger compartment in collisions under 35mph." No thanks.

I've got AC, Tilt, Cruise, Power Everything, Leather, trail-ablility and drive ability (I love the look on my Mom's face when I can make turn-arounds that she can't). Where else could you have or can you get the same package? At least in CO, every 'Burban in the world if it runs, goes for 5+g's, my G-wag was $350.00.

That is and what was so Grand.

[Stuka]

OK.....

few thinsg here.

1: Suburbans are WAY bigger then a wag. they are about 1.2ft wider (body wise) and a good deal longer (ever parked next to one?)

2: I could name ALOT of cars that came with carbs up until 91 (after that they wouldent pass california emissions)

3: The 2001 Ford f150 scroed poorly in that test where they said "near fatal colision" because it has a narrow framme up front. That test was a corner crash, so the frame wasnt there to take the impact. This is why the tundra did well, it has a wider front frame. But in a straighthead on colision the F150 did very well. Dont go by everything that is on the news, please try to do research ahead fo time.

4: Somebody mentions having solid axles up front is 'old tech"....well..it is...but....ford and dodge still use solid axles up front.....why you ask...because they are better. IFS does NOT flex...PERIOD! When a tire goes upp the camper is lost,, which also results in bad understeer under cornering. Plus our solid axles have very few parts to go bad.

5: Where these rigs over priced...yes....where they poorly built...no.

Treat your truck right and it will not break down (as much) on you [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Joe H.]

Hey fellas...let's keep the heat down, shall we? Pano has a good point--every one of us has heard "Why the h*ll do you drive THAT old piece of cr*p!?!?!?" from friends, parents, spous-ii or significant others. Thoreau said "An unexamined life is not worth living" and I think that same statement can be applied to FSJ ownership as well.

I was thinking about this--being single allows much time for deep thought--and I came to this conclusion: you can 'own' any car. When you buy a Jeep you commit to a relationship with a vehicle that is basically ingrained in every American male (and many females, too). The Norman Rockwell picture of classic Americana ALWAYS includes some guy wrenching on his Hudson or whatever in the barn. It's a statement of pride and comfort in one's own ability to master a mechanical object. It's like Zen and the art of Jeep maintenance, in real life.

I've had some great thinking sessions while brushing undercarriage grunge off my face. I've reached insights into the way I look at life sitting at my workbench polishing some little doohickey 'just because' it will look better buried amidst the other grease-encrusted parts on my FSJ. These vehicles aren't merely transportation for us--they're a statement about who we are, and what we value.

Case in point: my old bar manager indebted himself to the eyebrows for a '98 BMW 528, yet he NEVER WANTED TO DRIVE IT!!! Anytime he went to the beach or whatever, he flew because he felt that driving there was boring and too slow. For me (I'm guessing for y'all too) the drive IS the point as much as the destination. I can't see having as much of that feeling in an Accord, or even in a new F150/Durango/whatever. Plus, if the pavement ever runs out...

[reddog]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe H.:
Hey fellas...let's keep the heat down, shall we? Pano has a good point--every one of us has heard "Why the h*ll do you drive THAT old piece of cr*p!?!?!?" from friends, parents, spous-ii or significant others. Thoreau said "An unexamined life is not worth living" and I think that same statement can be applied to FSJ ownership as well.

Edited for length..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


While I see that there is a little warmth here I don't think it is because of offense to Ps post. I think that it reflects the passion we feel towards these beasts.

Kerry

[Hump]

I'll second that.

Thanks Panoscopic for giving us an avenue for explaining that passion.

[Unknown Jeep]

I for one was not flamming PAN, I agree that these beasts that infect us are not the best thing on the roads. You got All kinds of cars trucks and Vans that can do this that and the other. However, Everything on the roads has it's problems. Be it Rust, Poor Trannys, lacking power, Electrical head cases....But Try to really work on the new crap and you need a PHD and $5000 worth of "tool numbers", computers, big deep pockets for insurance/payments/maintance.

3 days out of Warranty you can lay bets that the ABS brake computer will die, you fix it and a Fuel injector croaks... "bing $80"
I can rebuild my carb for $20.

Now that these "Overpriced outdated trucks" are outdated, parts are cheap and plentiful, we have a network that knows what parts are cheap and what will and wont work.

I work on some of these new "over priced, Techno jumbles" Lets take one I know well. $50,000 Caddy luxo SUV... Full time 4WD, Electro everything (including power FOLDING mirrors) they put the ONSTAR in it because they know it will break down or run out of fuel. They got all this new Fangled EFI, computers, Computer controlled ride...ETC ETC ETC.. The stupid Shocks have Servo motors in them... $300 Each shock... With the EFI and the computer is still only gets 14MPG on the Freeway...Heck my 69 waggy does that good... (best yet 14.1MPG)

Troy
Elf in Tampa

[Ralph]

Wow! You guys are really venting your passions here!

In addition to all the reasons stated above, I can also say that I've got so much invested in my Grand Wag, financially and personally, that I think it would be foolish to get rid of it now.

[Lindel]

One last thing, would you really take any of these newer, "better" 4x4's (that you had to pay extra to get, by the way. Assuming, of course, that you got 4wd to begin with) out on a trail of any kind?

I wouldn't want to spend $50K on anything to damage it on the trail. My cherokee is trail worthy, in stock trim, more so than any modern day "SUV". Get's roughly the same mileage (13.5, combined city and highway), and does this with a carburetor, no computer, a three speed standard, and 31" tires.

You can have the new SUV's, they're ugly, and their momma dresses them funny. They are overpriced, overvalued, and under-functional.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

I was wondering about this subject the other day as I was trying to get my 89 GW out of the woods. I lost a rear axle, due to a wheel bearing letting go. This subject has me about P-O'ED as possible 2000 miles on it. I was wondering why I keep messing around with this old JUNK! WHY WHY WHY! I have no clue none, none at all. I do know I will fix it again, and await the next problem to show itself I know it will. I drive it with pride because on a warm day all the windows go down and with a little manual help come back up, when it is cold only the drivers window works with help. This is a good thing, because it is to cold to have the windows down anyhow. I think its great the drivers window works all year round so I can get cash out of drive thru ATMs for gas and repairs. I have been playing with JEEPS so long I can't think of any other SUV for my off road adventures. It has also been mentioned on this post, not everyone has a FSJ, to us, as a group of incurrable addicted JEEP JUNKIES this is unique and desirable status at any cost!