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  #21  
Old 04-19-2012, 07:08 PM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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I failed to mention that I did not leave any vacuum line disconnected and unplugged. Either they stayed plugged or disconnected and plugged.

So is the way forward to:

a) Disconnect the 5 port CTO (how is it best to remove it?)

b) Disconnect the Charcoal Canister (perhaps leave the return to tank lines?)

c) Power brake booster is connected to a port on the front of the manifold, is that to be left as is?

d) There is a port on the back of the manifold which I believe is the PCV which currently is connected to the big port on the front of the TBI and to a sensor. It thereafter is connected to a cylinder with 2 inputs on one side and 1 output on the other side (which is connected to Curb Bowl on the canister). Should I reconnect this so it only goes to the front of the TBI and the sensor?

e) The distributor is currently hooked to a small port on the front of the TBI (drivers side). Should I change that to some port on the manifold instead?

Everything would then be connected to the manifold directly. I am just wondering if the different ports on the Performer intake manifold have different functionality or if they are all the same.

Many thanks,
Palli
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2012, 12:02 AM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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I looked at the log and the BLM. The system is rich in areas and your charging system looks weak.
I recommend reviewing the information at www.madelectrical.com. It will help you tweak the charging system. look at the sense wire writeup.

Here is a pic of the throttle body.

You should be using the ported vacuum for the distr. if you chose to use a map port for the distr then the timing needs to be set with the vacuum disconnected. When connected a manifold vacuum port will make the vacuum adv go to max. So if your base timing is 10* and the vaccum adv adds another 15* your timing at idle will now be at 25*.
IMHO that is too much.
I prefer a ported vacuum so the idle timing stays at the base timing when the vacuum is connected.





Can you send me a couple pics of your motor and vacuum connections?
I do not understand a sensor being connected to the PCV vacuum line.
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
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  #23  
Old 04-20-2012, 09:47 AM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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Bill - I have emailed the pictures to you.

The PCV linegoes to a T connector which splits the line so one goes to the front of the TBI(which seems correct) but the other goes to this sensor (labelled 530008486800-2) and from the sensor it goes (with a big hose) to a small cylinder(which I believe is called a CTO) with one big hose on the one side and 2smaller on the other side. I triedtaking picture of that cylinder as well.

My TBI is slightly different on the front as I have only 3 ports in total. Currently one is capped (the one you label "left manifold vacuum"), one is PCV and the third is currently connected to the distributor.

The brake booster is connected to a T connector on the front of the manifold. The other plug on that T is blocked. Should I be connecting the TBI to that plug and disconnect and plug everything else apart from the vacuum bowl which would then be directly connected to the port on the back of the manifold, drivers side ?

Many thanks,
Palli
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland
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  #24  
Old 04-21-2012, 09:10 AM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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I am still unable to upload any attachments so I resorted to using Dropbox and paste links to the files there.

So here is a, admittedly not too good, drawing of how the vacuum lines are currently hooked up:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2164985/Wago...es_drawing.pdf

Here is a picture of how the hose from the PCV is connected to the front of the TBI and then goes to a sensor and then continues to a cylinder with 3 plugs:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2164985/Overview.jpg

Here is then a picture of the 3 plug cylinder:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2164985/PCV_...o_cylinder.jpg

The PCV line goes to one input of the two available on the one side of this cylinder. The other plug on that same side is connected directly to the PCV valve. So that seems to me to go in a circle.

On the other side of the cylinder there is only one plug which is connected to "Curb (carb?) bowl" on the canister.


To sum up how this should be hooked up, would it be like this?:

1) Brake booster gets directly connected to the manifold port on the front of the manifold
2) Distributor gets connected to the "ported vacuum" port on the front of the TBI
3) Vacuum bowl for heater/transfer case is connected directly to port on the drivers side of the manifold, behind the TBI
4) PCV is connected directly to the front of the TBI with nothing else connected to it.

Is that it or are there any additional vacuum hoses I should consider?

If I were to use the charcoal canister, how would I connect that and what would be the benefits?


Thanks,
Palli
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland
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  #25  
Old 04-21-2012, 04:31 PM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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OK, I went ahead and removed few things. I removed the sensor that was connected to the PCV line and the 3 port cylinder connected to the charcoal canister. This must have removed about 3 meters of vacuum hoses in total.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2164985/Stuff_removed.jpg

This means that currently I have one line connected from the PCV valve directly to the port on the front of the TBI, the MAP sensor in the back, the brake booster directly from the front of the manifold and the distributor from the ported vacuum connection on the front of the TBI, and the vacuum bowl is connected directly from the port on the drivers side on the manifold behind the TBI.

All lines from the charcoal canister are disconnedted (and the lines removed) but I did not plug the canister outputs. The only thing connected to the canister is the one marked "Tank" but I left that line connected (which splits in 2 shortly after and both hoses go behind the engine but I do not know where they end).

The engine starts (takes few attemtps) and runs ok but when warm it still is doing the same oscillation as before.

So I do not seem to be getting closer to the problem. I did not drive around but I did make a short log where one can see how the RPM is varying even though the throttle is not moved.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2164985/20120421_185226_LOG.zip

Any advice on what might be wrong?

Brgds,
Palli
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland
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  #26  
Old 04-22-2012, 08:31 AM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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I made a new drawing showing the new layout of the vacuum lines.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2164985/Wago...ings_22APR.pdf

This is incredibly more simple than it was before and I have to say that I am amazed that all the car mechanics looking after this Wagoneer before did not remove them. That is if these lines are indeed not needed.

I also made a short video showing the symptoms and uploaded to Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne9m9...ature=youtu.be

Unfortunately I did not recognize the wind from the cooling fan so there is wind noise in parts of the video. The video also shows the current connections somewhat.

The charcoal canister is currently still installed but the only thing connected to it is the "Tank" hose.

Looking forward to hearing any suggestions on what might be wrong.

Palli

(p.s. the upload is still not working for me, hence the Dropbox links)
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland
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  #27  
Old 04-22-2012, 10:08 AM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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Palli,
You've been busy since our last discussion.
I've been out saving some vehicles from the crusher so haven't been able to spend much computer time.

The hose changes look good.
A couple things to check if you haven't already.

1. remove the hose from the manifold to the brake booster and cap the manifold. You can do this while it's running to see if the brake booster is leaking vacuum and causing a problem. Another way to check it is by applying vacuum to the booster and see if it holds vacuum.
2. Remove the hose from the vacuum bowl and cap the manifold. Same as above.
3. Remove the hose from the TBI going to the vacuum adv and apply suction to it and ensure that the distr adv will hold vacuum until you release it. If good reconnect.
4. pop the PCV valve out and shake it. It should rattle inside. if not replace it. If it does then reinstall.

5.Perform the initial setup procedures. from the binderplanet FAQs.
6. a couple related thoughts. You are running a howel system with out timing control so you need to verify the timing is steady at idle and not moving up and down. Next is the o2 sensor, How old is it and where is it placed. Is the tip pointing at least slightly down so prevent moisture from building up on it during cold starts?


When all is good...
drive and log data.
Send the log and the BLM data to me.
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Fuel Injection Moderator at BinderPlanet
Hamilton Fuel Injection
75 scout XLC 345/727/JPD300/3.73's/33's/4wdisc/hydroboost/EFI/OBA/OBW
1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS

Last edited by Bill USN-1 : 04-22-2012 at 10:22 AM.
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  #28  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:28 PM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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I bought a fuel pressure meter and tried measuring the fuel pressure. What I found was that fuel pressure was between 11-12 PSI but I also noticed that the needle was shaking a bit. I have never seen a fuel pressure meter before so I do not know if that is normal or abnormal. I recorded a short video of the meter in action and it would be interesting to know if this is normal or not.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pClL8...ature=youtu.be

Another interesting thing occurred but I tried pinching the fuel return line from the TBI. When I did that the fuel pressure meter on the fuel line went to max but the RPM oscillating stopped!

I then put the meter on the return line and it showed between 4-5 PSI.

Is this telling us something?
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland
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  #29  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:44 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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There's a couple things going on.
First the return pressure should be 0psi. So you need to fix the fuel lines.
The return should be 5/16" straight back with the min of connections.
I run 5/16 steel brake line and just connect each end with rubber hose.
The feed is the same but should be 3/8" line.
If you are using old pieces of the original fuel lines then they need to be checked.

It was already discussed that the rolling idle is normally a result of the fuel being lean. It is called a lean roll.
So by pinching the return you are increasing the fuel pressure and making it rich. That stops the lean roll.

The lean can be from the fuel system or a vacuum leak. that's why we are spending time on the vacuum hoses.

Each piece of the system must be good before moving on to the other so something is not overlooked or you may be doing it twice.


Inlet pressure should be 12+- psi.
return 0 psi

Did you install a clear 3/8 filter before the pump? is the filter new?

The injectors firing will cause a slight flux in the pressure gauge.
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
75 scout XLC 345/727/JPD300/3.73's/33's/4wdisc/hydroboost/EFI/OBA/OBW
1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS
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  #30  
Old 04-24-2012, 05:42 PM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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Thanks for the clarification.

I did install a new fuel filter (actually 2 filters to begin with but Troy advised that there should be only one filter) before the fuel pump. The new filter is not clear but the big metal one (FRAM 3850). I removed a clear old filter and that one did have some debris in it. I also checked the sock in the tank but it was like new.

I will then see if I can clear any obstruction in the return fuel line but I see it does use some part of the original fuel lines.

To clean the fuel return line - should I use air compressor? Is there a trick to know if the line is free from clutter?

Many thanks,
Palli
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland
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  #31  
Old 04-24-2012, 05:58 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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If you have pressure on the gauge when connected to the return then you have a restriction.

You may be able to disconnect the return line at each connection and run it into a fuel container. Then start the engine and look at the gauge.
it may help to determine where the restriction is at.

You may want to start where the line is connected to the tank.
Where is the return connected to?
Is it an open port or was it a restricted emissions port on the tank? The emissions port has a very small hole in it.
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
75 scout XLC 345/727/JPD300/3.73's/33's/4wdisc/hydroboost/EFI/OBA/OBW
1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS
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  #32  
Old 04-24-2012, 06:02 PM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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I do believe it is connected to a port on the fuel meter sending unit, at least there are 2 hoses connected to the sender. I did not check, when inspecting the sock, if the hole was small.

But tomorrow evening I will trace the return fuel line and report.

Thanks,
Palli
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland
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  #33  
Old 04-24-2012, 06:08 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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Something to keep in mind, you stated the fuel pressure was ~12psi so if that holds steady then the system should operate fine.
The problem is that you stated it had ~4psi on the return. So any pressure in the return causes the inlet fuel pressure to rise. Which is bad.

So fixing the fuel inlet and return pressure is needed to make sure we are working with a good system.
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
75 scout XLC 345/727/JPD300/3.73's/33's/4wdisc/hydroboost/EFI/OBA/OBW
1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS
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  #34  
Old 04-26-2012, 05:37 PM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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The saga continues (sagas are a big thing for us Icelanders).

I replaced the fuel return line all the way to the tank. The return fuel pressure is now flickering between 0-1, which I assume is acceptable. The inlet fuel pressure remains the same or about 12 psi.

How does one "apply suction" to the vacuum advance? I did the only thing I could think of and simply disconnected the vacuum hose at the TBI (with the engine warm and off), put it in my mouth and sucked. I could freely suck and blow without any resistance. I checked the hose and it is good. Is that normal?

Thanks,
Palli
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland

Last edited by bORGEL : 04-26-2012 at 06:24 PM.
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  #35  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:25 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bORGEL
How does one "apply suction" to the vacuum advance? I did the only thing I could think of and simply disconnected the vacuum hose at the TBI (with the engine warm and off), put it in my mouth and sucked. I could freely suck and blow without any resistance. Is that normal?

Thanks,
Palli

This should explain it...
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=84586
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  #36  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:07 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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If you can freely suck and blow thru the advance then it's bad. We discussed it a couple post ago when looking for vacuum leaks.
Quote:
3. Remove the hose from the TBI going to the vacuum adv and apply suction to it and ensure that the distr adv will hold vacuum until you release it. If good reconnect.
If you have it connected to manifold vacuum then it is a leak at idle.
If it is connected to the ported vacuum then it is a leak at part throttle.
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
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1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS

Last edited by Bill USN-1 : 04-26-2012 at 09:13 PM.
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  #37  
Old 04-27-2012, 08:55 AM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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Yes, that was it - I was going through the list of things to check when I found this, as per your previous post.

I had it connected to the ported vacuum on the front of the TBI. This part is not available in Iceland so I have to wait a bit for the part.

Is it ok to drive with the vacuum advance unplugged and the port on the TBI capped?

Thanks,
Palli
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland
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  #38  
Old 04-27-2012, 11:24 AM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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Yes.
You can probably just bump your timing up about 5* to help out until get a new vac adv.

Another option is to convert your system to computer timing control.
it's a little more involved but you will have consistant timing control and no more moving parts to wear out.

I think Ethan may have done a little write up here after I helped him convert his. You may be able to do a little search and find it.
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
75 scout XLC 345/727/JPD300/3.73's/33's/4wdisc/hydroboost/EFI/OBA/OBW
1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS
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  #39  
Old 04-29-2012, 06:00 PM
bORGEL bORGEL is offline
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I removed the vacuum advance (and blocked the hose) and have been driving around. I do not own a timing light so I did not change the timing.

Unfortunately the problem has not gone away and remains the same as before. I believe that there are not many things I have yet to check but 2 things are still on the list to check:

1) The PCV. I have an Edelbrock Performer Intake manifold. How do I remove the PCV valve? I have seen on the site that some are to be "ripped out" but others are removed by turning them counter clockwise. Neither method worked for me but I did not want to use too much force as I did not know the correct method.

2) I have not replaced the fuel pump. Few have mentioned to me that broken fuel pumps sometimes show this behavior that after they get warm they behave strangely. The fuel pressure is constant (but flickering) at 12 psi. If the engine is doing the lean roll would the fuel pressure still remain at 12 psi ?

Should I order a replacement fuel pump to rule out that possibility?

I looked at the write up on converting the system to timing control and found that such a task is way beyond my current capabilities. With my mechanical skills (or lack thereof) I am struggling, to say the least, with the current task of troubleshooting the basic system...

Palli
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1990 Grand Wagoneer
Stock height, AMC 401, Edelbrock Performer Intake, 260 Cam, 9.8 compression, Mallory ignition, Howell TBI,
Iceland
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  #40  
Old 04-29-2012, 08:27 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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If the pump is maintaining 12psi at idle then it is working enough to not be the cause of the lean roll. provided your gauge is accurate.
The surge will be from a vacuum or exhaust leak or from the chip tuning itself.or as mentioned before, an old o2 sensor.
if the engine ran fine before with no lean roll then something changed to cause it.
Now if you have always had the roll at idle then we are probably looking at just the tuning.

You can probably just unhook the O2 sensor and see if the lean roll goes away.

if the PCV is surrounded by a rubber grommet then it pushes in.
If it's in metal then it screws in. but there isn't really a need to remove it at this point. You just need to check the hose connected to it and make sure it is not cracked and leaking.
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
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1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS
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