Ford EEC-V based sequential MPFI

[BGW]

Long story short, I'm fed up with carburetors. I know carb gods like Ristow can make them run like a dream, and they sound amazing, but I'm done. I rebuilt the 2150 myself, and it ran great, but then I needed to have it tuned for emissions. The shop screwed it up and I haven't been able to get it to run right since. The kicker is that I could have dropped TBI on the 360 for less money and time than the shop took with the carb.

So, now I'm planning for future modifications. This won't be happening for a while as I'm heading to college. I'm buying an Eagle and the GW will be in storage while I'm in Montana. In a year or two when I'm ready to do this (over the summer), I've decided to drop MPFI in the GW instead of an archaic fuel injection method. I'll be buying the Edelbrock MPFI manifold for AMCs, and I'll be robbing a Ford 5.4 of its electrical system/computer, throttle body, and sensors. An added little bonus is that the Ford VSS is an 8-pole type, meaning I can use the stock GW cruise system with no mods. There's a lot less of a community for hacking Ford electronics, but Moates and a few others make tuners. I'll be able to reprogram the EEC-V computer to match the AMC 360 specs. Most aftermarket users of Ford stuff use the EEC-IV system, but I'm going with the newer type for two main reasons. One, it has even tighter emissions controls (a BIG deal where I live), and two, it's OBD-II.

You may be asking why I'm deciding to go this route instead of just buying the complete Edelbrock kit. This'll be cheaper, and the Ford computer has more more features I have use for. I've also always loved how fast Ford fuel injection wakes up- I don't know about the Edelbrock kit, but the Triton 6.8s we have in our fleet fire up faster than almost all the other vehicles I've ever driven. I know I'll be on my own when it comes to wiring everything up, but I'm not afraid. Electrical wiring/troubleshooting is one of my best skills.

I might change my cam when I do this, but otherwise I'm keeping everything else stock. I think I'll wind up with one of the smoothest-running and fastest starting GWs around. I'll never have to worry about emissions again, and I won't ever have to worry about burning up my cats at altitude either. I'll make sure to update this thread as I aquire more and more of the needed parts for the swap, and I'll make sure to provide lots of feedback for other who may be interested in this down the road.

Sorry for the rambling, but I know you guys can share my excitement at finding a very viable method of (sequential) MPFI.

[FSJ Guy]

There are not a lot of Ford MPFI systems attached to non-Ford engines. This could be the start of something big.

[csuengr]

Problems using an EEC-V on a AMC 360. The EEC-V needs a cam position sensor, crank position sensor, EGR with EGR position sensor and has NO provisions for running a distributor. EEC-V uses coil packs. You will also have fun trying to get a 4.6 or 5.4 TB on a 4bbl intake. There are intake elbows, but they use Mustang SN95 TB's. It would be easier, and cheaper, to do a entire drivetrain swap using Chevy stuff.

By the way, those Fords fire up slow compared to the 95' LT1 in my CJ.

[BGW]

Problems using an EEC-V on a AMC 360. The EEC-V needs a cam position sensor, crank position sensor, EGR with EGR position sensor and has NO provisions for running a distributor. EEC-V uses coil packs. You will also have fun trying to get a 4.6 or 5.4 TB on a 4bbl intake. There are intake elbows, but they use Mustang SN95 TB's. It would be easier, and cheaper, to do a entire drivetrain swap using Chevy stuff.

By the way, those Fords fire up slow compared to the 95' LT1 in my CJ.

Entire drivetrain swap vs ~1,500 for EEC-V? Not worthwhile. And I want to keep a good engine under the hood . J/K. I don't hate gm like I do DOdGe, but I can't stand how boring they are as well as that little southern vibe that accompanies a SBC swap. I know about all of the complications, I've been looking into this for a while. Didn't you read that it doesn't faze me? Thanks for the info on the throttle bodies- I was planning on machining an adapter myself, but I'll look into Mustang TBs. And what makes you think I want to keep a distributor under the hood? (*edit: brainfart. Wishful thinking. I don't want to keep it, but I'll have to make do somehow)

LT1s don't sound all that fast to me in the parking lot. Usually I hear a little over 1 complete rotation before they fire. Not bad at all (our Pilot takes almost 1.5), but the Fords I was comparing to usually do it in about 3/4 of a rotation. Granted, most of my experience with Tritons is with the 6.8s. With more cylinders to fire per rotation, they most likely fire up faster than the 8 cylinder variants.

[myk]

And what makes you think I want to keep a distributor under the hood? I'll sleep better at night without worrying about those darn gears eating eachother.

What are you planning to run the oil pump with then?

Mike

[BGW]

Darn it, I should have known removing the distributor from the equation wouldn't be easy. You're totally right, I can't believe I forgot that. Wishful thinking I guess. I was only thinking about the distributor electrically, not mechanically. I wonder if I can make a cap so I can just have the stub of the distributor in the block without the rotor/pickup/weights.

[myk]

Was a loaded question Here's what I did, works perfect...put about a hundred miles on it this past weekend.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=136772&page=4

Mike

[JeepsAndGuns]

I have the edelbrock proflow intake and fuel rails. I am building a MPFI system based off gm stuff.
Unless you plan on running the edelbrock shorty pico injectors, you wont have much room for a throttle body. I added the longer, more common bosh injectors and that left me with limited room between the fuel rails. There is roughly 7 inches between the fuel rails right now. Believe me, thats not much room when you need to start looking for throttle bodies.
Other problems with the intake:
The opening and bolt pattern where the TB mounts is not the standard square bore bolt pattern or opening size, its smaller.
The intake is tall. Thats gonna be another limiting factor on throttle bodies and adapter plates before you run into hood clearance issues. Right now thats my current issue, is making a air intake and filter that will clear the hood.
You can look at my sneak peek thread for pics. 2nd page I have a pic with the injectors and TB installed. I ended up going with a TB off a vortec V8, and I still had to mod the linkage to clear the fuel rail.

[csuengr]

So Mike, what are you doing for a cam position sensor? I didn't look through the posts, to lazy.

Might be able to somehow put the Ford syncro (cam position sensor) on top of a chopped AMC dizzy, like Ford did. Just leaves the crank position sensor. And EGR. A SN95 TB, or 5.0 Exploder TB will work with EEC-V and the 4bbl intake elbows.

[myk]

I don't have one, just a 48-1 wheel on the crank. It fires the coils in pairs "wasted spark cop" from four ignition outputs.

Mike

[BGW]

myk, that's beautiful! Really nice work.

JeepsAndGuns, thanks for the information. That's really useful, and it wasn't something I was aware I needed to be concerned about. I guess I forgot that the AMC blocks are nowhere near as wide as the Ford modular engines.

csuengr, that's a great idea. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a CPS on a chopped dizzy would always be in sync with the cam, regardless of future timing chain slop, no? I was planning on putting a pickup on the crank, but that sounds like a good option. If I have to keep the dizzy in there, I might as well put it to work.

The other thing I was thinking about was modifying a small hydraulic pump to supply oil pressure (run it at very low speed/ have pressure bypasses), so I could get rid of the distributor/internal oil pump. I think I'd need a retaining plate to prevent cam walk without the dizzy/oil pump in the equation, but I know that's been done on AMC blocks before.

[Funkwease1]

myk, that's beautiful! Really nice work.

JeepsAndGuns, thanks for the information. That's really useful, and it wasn't something I was aware I needed to be concerned about. I guess I forgot that the AMC blocks are nowhere near as wide as the Ford modular engines.

csuengr, that's a great idea. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a CPS on a chopped dizzy would always be in sync with the cam, regardless of future timing chain slop, no? I was planning on putting a pickup on the crank, but that sounds like a good option. If I have to keep the dizzy in there, I might as well put it to work.

The other thing I was thinking about was modifying a small hydraulic pump to supply oil pressure (run it at very low speed/ have pressure bypasses), so I could get rid of the distributor/internal oil pump. I think I'd need a retaining plate to prevent cam walk without the dizzy/oil pump in the equation, but I know that's been done on AMC blocks before.

Just some info on small injectors. You can get Bosch ev14s (awesome injectors with very stable low PW) in the ~48mm (Edelbrock) Pico injector sizes, and even shorter if necessary. Siemens Dekas come in those heights as well but I'm not sure if you can get them in the low flow sizes we'd need for these motors. Almost positive the magneti marelli injectors are the same injector as the Pico, but couldn't prove it to you. All these can be had for quite a bit less than list price of the Picos.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Just some info on small injectors. You can get Bosch ev14s (awesome injectors with very stable low PW) in the ~48mm (Edelbrock) Pico injector sizes, and even shorter if necessary. Siemens Dekas come in those heights as well but I'm not sure if you can get them in the low flow sizes we'd need for these motors. Almost positive the magneti marelli injectors are the same injector as the Pico, but couldn't prove it to you. All these can be had for quite a bit less than list price of the Picos.

Main reason I didnt go with the short pico style injectors the edelbrock kit uses, is price and avalibality. Using the more common bosch style/length let you source them from very common vehicles and can be found in junkyards and new or rebuilt for very afforable prices. Also there are a very good selection of flow rates avalable.
I think the reason edelbrock used the short pico style was because of throttle body to fuel rail clearance. The TB mounting flange on my pro-flow intake is roughly 1 inch taller than my standard edelbrock preformer. So short injectors, and taller intake, lets them clear the TB and linkage.

[SVO42]

Subscribing.

[mdill]

You still need to know the crank -> cam phase relation, without a cam (think dizzy) pickup otherwise there is no way to tell if any given piston is a TDC on the compresion vs. Exhaust stroke.

I don't have one, just a 48-1 wheel on the crank. It fires the coils in pairs "wasted spark cop" from four ignition outputs.

Mike