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  #1  
Old 11-08-2006, 06:03 PM
westcoastflea westcoastflea is offline
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ignition switch brake warning light issue HELP!!!!

its been over a month now of not being able to drive
i have completely lost my mind and become a raving b**ch (and im not kidding)
i need help !!!!!!

i have two concerns

Does the following mean i have good brakes?

stepping hard on the brakes and having both back tires leave skid marks on the pavement.
i put the front up on a jack and spun the front tire having someone step on brakes tire stopped so assuming that means i have brakes all the way around?(as in proportioning valve is working correctly)?

hope so...

LAST THING i have to to fix for inspection is the brake warning light that wasnt coming on when the key was turned. can you believe it? we wont even mention the defroster issue or the back window not going up as quickly as the guy thought it should.


when turning the key to start what causes the brake warning light to come on? then when turning to run what causes it to go off.?

since the diagrams show a hot red wire coming from fuse box to the warning lights in the instrument cluster im thinking that the only thing it could be is the brown wire common to both the emergency brake and proportioning valve that goes to the ignition switch is supposed to ground when you turn the key to start causing the brake warning light to come on. is this correct?

the switch i refer to is on the steering column there is a pink hot wire coming out of it also. next to it is the other switch that starts the jeep.


so if i start the jeep, its running and the stupid little brake light bulb is still on and i have both emergency brake and proportioning valve wires unplugged does it stand to reason that somehow the ignition switch is not going into position correctly to unground the wire ?
when you put it into run position is it supposed to stay there? keeping the BROWN wire from grounding again?

if none of the above is correct could the round large connector on the back of the instrument cluster have something to do with this??

i cant trouble shoot if i dont know how the system is supposed to work in the first place

i will say that none of my gauges work except the battery gauge.
i have power on both the large red and large yellow wires attached to the instrument cluster. my ground is attached and attached at the other end as well.

in probing the back of the large round connector on the back of the cluster with it connected i found power in only one wire.

so is it ignition switch not working correctly??

or the large round connector is not working correctly to turn off power to bulb somehow?

i really need help here guys i have got to have a working vehicle i really thought i had figured this out yesterday and turns out i didnt

if i can get this working right and my brakes are finally good i can call for an inspection


so PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!
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  #2  
Old 11-08-2006, 08:45 PM
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shackwrrr shackwrrr is offline
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acaually that light on my truck doesent come on when I trun on the key. its only on whe I turn on my key if the e brake is pressed or theres an imbalance in pressure in the braking system. It used to be on all the time for mw till I fixed the brake line now It never comes on unless I push in the e brake. The only light that comes on when I start the truck Is the seatbelt Light. So maybe you just need to find a new inspection station
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Old 11-09-2006, 07:30 AM
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I don't know what year wag you have but the brake light should come on when the key is in the start position, this shows you that the brake warning light is working.

What year wag do you have?
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Old 11-09-2006, 09:40 AM
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shackwrrr shackwrrr is offline
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I have a 79 truck
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  #5  
Old 11-09-2006, 09:46 AM
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79 Wagger 79 Wagger is offline
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LAST THING i have to to fix for inspection is the brake warning light that wasnt coming on when the key was turned. can you believe it? we wont even mention the defroster issue or the back window not going up as quickly as the guy thought it should.


Sounds like you need to find yourself a new mechanic...this guy's nickel and diming you to death!!

Al.
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  #6  
Old 11-09-2006, 10:44 AM
westcoastflea westcoastflea is offline
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hi sorry i forget the year doesnt come up when i post its an 85 grand wagoneer.

i dont know what its like in other states but here in maine the inspection process is a joke
last year i took the jeep to 3 different stations each station gave me a long list of items to fix. the problem was that each station gave me a long list of items that were completely different from the all the other stations items.
so i chose the station whose list consisted of items i could fix not expensive mechanic only items
also most stations wont give you an appt for inspection. they want the vehicle dropped off first thing in the morning and left all day. impossible for me. rent a vehicle for the day so they can inspect mine? its too funny.

this year some of the things on the list that i had to fix were glove box door not closing.
i forgot to put the horn button back on. the brake light issue
and the defroster ( i had unhooked it).

this station knows i do my own work so they know they wont make money off of me and of course treat me accordingly.
(very rudely).

they want my brake pedal to travel no more then 2" before the jeep stops.
dont know if thats even possible.

so i need to get a vehicle with a sticker asap to do that i need to know how the brake light system works in terms of power leaving fuse box travelling to xyz what makes the light go back off etc etc.

thank you all for responding
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  #7  
Old 11-09-2006, 11:06 AM
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J4GRAND J4GRAND is offline
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Quote:
they want my brake pedal to travel no more then 2" before the jeep stops.
Tell them that it a 20+ year old vehicle with drum brakes on the back and no ABS and that it is impossible for that to happen. I bet my '05 GC brake pedal drops more than 2 inches. They used to have an inspection program in IN years ago but it was so rife with corruption that they dropped it. I remember many a times when I was a kid going with my Dad and sitting there waiting for the inspection on his old VW Fastback to be done. I think he ahd to replace the master cylinder every year because of that stupid inspection.
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  #8  
Old 11-09-2006, 01:49 PM
westcoastflea westcoastflea is offline
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there are a lot of things id like to tell them, and im not one to keep quiet, but if i p**ss them off then its back to square one, with another inspection station,and another long list of items i will have to fix. i just hope hitting brakes hard having rear wheels leave rubber on asphalt is a sign of good brakes.
i cant find anything anywhere that will explain how the brake warning light system actually works, i know the basics in terms of wiring and what makes light go on if there a problem with system but i need to know what makes it go off after the system check.

im leaning towards ground not being broken on ignition switch but i have no clue how the round connector on the back of instrument cluster comes into this it could be something wrong there too???

HELP!!!
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  #9  
Old 11-09-2006, 06:20 PM
westcoastflea westcoastflea is offline
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another day gone and nothing is fixed,
can anyone please tell me what im looking for here???

ive got emergency brake unplugged ive got proportioning valve unplugged.

what is supposed to make brake warning light shut off after safety check??

is the rod going to ignition switch not doing what ever its supposed to do to unground something when in run position? thus making light bulb go off?

is there something else that is supposed to shut off power to bulb once jeep is running?

85 grand wagoneer.

anyone know ????
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  #10  
Old 11-09-2006, 09:53 PM
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jsinajeep jsinajeep is offline
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If there is a unit that does that on your Jeep it is probably a little black box under the dash just like the one that works your seat belt light. I don't know what year they started that or if they did. Call the dealership and ask them if they have the unit that make the brake light come on when you turn the key on.
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  #11  
Old 11-09-2006, 10:00 PM
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shackwrrr shackwrrr is offline
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the setup is that the bulb Is getting power ALL the time if the key is on and everything that can turn in on ( key in the run position [off after certain amount of time], E-brake, and Prop valve) These all are grounds. so if any of them ground it turns on the light. So if you have everything unplugged then You have a short grounding out the light and turning it on. so i would say the problem is in the ignition switch, I belive its on top of the steering column and under the dash But I am unsure
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  #12  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:51 AM
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Uh, did any one suggest you check to see if the ligh bulb is good ?

Mike D.

(BTW, Maine = east coast, I think your handle needs an update)
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  #13  
Old 11-10-2006, 12:08 PM
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BRUTUS BRUTUS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoastflea
another day gone and nothing is fixed,
can anyone please tell me what im looking for here???

ive got emergency brake unplugged ive got proportioning valve unplugged.

what is supposed to make brake warning light shut off after safety check??

Because I just did my lift... I don't have any e-brake cable on my J and my light stays on.

I remember when I did have an e-brake cable... sometimes when I popped the e-brake release... the pedal wouldn't come ALL the way up so the light would stay on. Just a thought.
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  #14  
Old 11-10-2006, 12:13 PM
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mdill mdill is offline
 
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Here you go, (edited after looking at the diagram one more time)

http://oljeep.com/gw/elec/84_85/84_8...agramPage6.jpg

From the diagram, the light should only be on if and only if
1) Ignition is in Run/On and (Park brake is set and/or presure differental switch is set).
OR
2) Ignition switch is in the Start/Crank position (Bulb check)


So If the bake system is fine (differential switch should only set if there is an issue with the brake system) it should only light if the park brake is set, or you are cranking the engine to start.

It does not have a bulb test feature where it comes on with the car not running and the ignition on, bulb test is only when cranking.


Mike D.

Last edited by mdill : 11-10-2006 at 03:07 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-10-2006, 06:45 PM
westcoastflea westcoastflea is offline
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ok so with the 2 brown wires that are hooked to the two brake systems disconnected thereby not providing grounds for the light bulb i should have power to the bulb only when turning the key actually making the starter turn over correct?

is THAT because the brown wires going to the two brake systems end in the igntion switch so that when i turn the key to a certain position something in the ignition switch is supposed to provide a ground? making the bulb light?

and when the key goes back to the position it should be in when you are driving does that mean the ignition switch is no longer providing the ground making the light go out?

IS This RIGHT??


that was my theory so took the ignition switch out of the 84 and put in the 85 nothing different bulb lights when key is turned on, not even when cranking and stays on when running.

. could it be my rod from the key switch to the ignition switch isnt working properly??

but if the rod isnt working properly wouldnt i know it because the jeep wouldnt start or or would keep trying to start once it caught?

how do i figure that out?



now the other piece of the puzzle is this

the brown wires all connect and go to ignition with one detour to the round large connector on the back of the instrument cluster.
there is one place on there for the brake warning light


HOW DOES THAT FIT INTO THIS WHOLE THING?



the brake warning LIGHT socket is supposed to get power from red wire coming from fuse box, which goes off to two other zones, somewhere along the way im assuming is the grounding issue.
thats alot of checking and time that i dont have.

IS THERE A PURE POWER SOURCE that i will know is good that i can just run a wire from (thereby bypassing everything in the mess under dash) to the brake warning socket keeping the brown wire from ignition switch still intact
that would give my socket power all the time yet it would unground when the ignition switch goes to the run position?

and if it doesnt unground then wouldnt that mean the rod isnt doing its job in ungrounding the connectors in the ignition switch?

should my ignition switch be grounded somewhere?

another day wasted on this
you can find wiring diagrams and info on how to change parts but i cant find anything that tells you how the systems work.

SO THANK YOU GUYS ALL FOR POSTING AND PLEASE GET BACK TO ME
AFTER READING THIS I KNOW ITS LONG BUT....



I WANNA STICKER NOW NOT NEXT YEAR.
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  #16  
Old 11-10-2006, 09:47 PM
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jsinajeep jsinajeep is offline
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There IS no ground in the ign. switch. On the back side of the gauge cluster panel you have that round plastic connector with 8 to 9 wire. Unplug it and look at the face of the connector for letter "E" that is the hot wire from the ign switch that feed the Brake light blub plus other items. Now look for the letter "A" that wire comes from the two switches where it make a ground for the light to come on. Now with the connector unpluged use a test light and touch the Yellow wire on the AMP gauge and the other end of the test light to the "A" termial of the connector[mine is a black wire] that go to the switches.[make sure the two wires are disconnected from the switches] If the test light light up, then that wire is shorting out somewhere between the connector and the two switches.
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Old 11-10-2006, 09:56 PM
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mdill mdill is offline
 
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Ok,

From the diagram.

Red wire going to the top of the bulb, That wire is hot +12 whenever the key is in either start or run position (Goes to the spice on the right side of the page)

The Blk wire coming out of the bottom of the bulb, goes three places.
Park brake switch
Differential pressure switch
Ignition switch. (only grounded in the crank/start positon)

Any of the three switches on the black wire can ground the bottom of the bulb. (wired OR)




In normal operation the bulb will light when:

1) The Ignition switch is in crank postion
2) The Ingition switch is in the ON postion
and either the park brake switch or the differental pressure switch is closed.

Reading your post :

I think you have most of it right:
But are heading in the wrong direction, your light is getting power so bypassing the power side is a waste of time, the side you need to look at
is the ground side if you un hooked both brake switches (the loose connestors are not shorting to ground are they ?) and have no joy, that leaves either the ignition switch is grounding the light, or a short in the ground side wire somewhere.
Easiest way to find out which of the two is the cause is to pop the brake light ground terminal (only that terminal) out of the ignition switch connector (But you have to have the rest of the connector plugged in to the switch for test) BTW you are removing the + battery lead before messing around with moving wires around are you not ?

If the light stays on, there is a short in the ground side somewhere, and only tracing the wire, looking at insolation will find that.

Mike D.
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  #18  
Old 11-11-2006, 10:29 AM
westcoastflea westcoastflea is offline
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hi thank you so much for replying
i spent most of my time since last night thinking about this
it seems if the power wire was the issue it would be causing a fuse to blow or sparking when i mess around with the wires and its not.
so thank you mike you confirmed my thoughts of last night.
so this am disconnected the brown wire on the ignition switch from the rest of the brown wires( discovered that whoever did the wiring before had put other brown wires into the connection,brown going to the center large round pin on instrument cluster, ground on instrument cluster, and the brown on the connector with violet wire back of instrument cluster). so cut all and put brown wire from ignition straight to bottom of socket.

now all i have is A powerwire to socket and a brown wire direct from ignition to socket also.

NOTHING CHANGED.


i tried jiggling the key to see if maybe it was the rod going down to ignition switch not in the right position to disconnect ground in run position nothing different.

so does the center pin on the back of the instrument cluster as the other poster said actually contain the ground that grounds the brown wire on the ignition switch?
have to put that back in to the mix? or run a wire from a known ground splice to ignition switch thereby grounding if not grounded then to light bulb socket?

thank you im not an electrical whiz by any means if i can get the info though it may take awhile but i think i can puzzle thru all of this
so PLEASE repost with thoughts on progress so far

Last edited by westcoastflea : 11-11-2006 at 10:35 AM.
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  #19  
Old 11-11-2006, 10:34 AM
westcoastflea westcoastflea is offline
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JS

could you clarify a couple of things for me please?

i have checked the brown wire from the ignition and that is the only wire that doesnt light up my test light. i have checked at both ends of the system (emergency and prop and dont find power at the ends of those wires either
although it was strange the other night it was raining and i got under to disconnect the prop valve and could have sworn i got shocked.

so had been assuming that if the ignition switch is what makes the bulb ground and unground that the brown wire was a ground.

so im confused, will do the test as you said and see what happens

does it matter where i get power for the bulb as long as its constant power when the key is in start position?
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  #20  
Old 11-11-2006, 10:16 PM
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jsinajeep jsinajeep is offline
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Now if I am reading the post right your Brake Light in the cluster stay on with the Ign. in run. Then that mean you have power to the light, and what the emerg.brake and prop. switch does is make complete circiut by making a ground. I went through my Chilton book and looked at the 80 to 86 years and it show the wire on termial "A" going through the harmess and SPLICES into 3 other wires one being the E brake and one going to the prop. valve NOW the third wire I can not make it out even with a magnify glasses. Oops I went to the 79 veh. and the THIRD wire Does go to the ign switch somewhere [I was wrong]. With that being said, see about disconnecting that wire you kept talking about going to the ign switch. Or first use the test light and do like I said. Hook one end of the test light to the AMP termial and the other end to the "A" termial with it unpluged from the cluster gauge. If it test light light up with the Key On and Off and the E brake and Prop switch unhooked then the third wire where ever it goes is making a ground.
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