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  #1  
Old 09-15-2018, 09:05 PM
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Ophale Ophale is offline
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Seeking Advise: Carburetor/Timing/Vacuum Advance Gremlins

Aloha,

I have a 1981 Wagoneer with a 4.2L engine and 4 speed manual that I was given a few months ago. I been ticking away a bunch of issues when I have a chance but have been stuck on getting the Jeep to run smoothly and not backfire.

The jeep is not factory original with the prior owner making various modifications. The Jeep has a weber carburetor and a bunch of deleted vacuum lines. I have read various forums to try and understand the best configuration for the 4.2L with a weber. I'm currently configured like this as suggested from Neuner from the Jeep CJ Forum. https://www.jeep-cj.com/forums/f2/we...ed-help-22159/







This is what I'm observing, when I have the jeep running with the port vacuum plug and the vacuum advance open to atm pressure, the jeep runs fine at idle, but backfires when you have load or give it gas without load. If add the vacuum advance line from the port vacuum on the carburetor, I see the vacuum advance lever on the distributer oscillate back and forth and the engine runs like crap. I placed a vacuum gauge on the line and I see the vacuum pressure oscillate from the carburetor. I'm not sure what this means...

The timing has been set during all of these experiments at 8 to 10 degree retarded at an unknown rpm (i don't have a RPM gauge). I have backed off the idle screw to a point where it is almost stalling and then turned back a little bit until it sounds better as my start point to set the timing. I'm new to all this, and I'm wondering what is the best way to measure rpm when you don't have a tach in the jeep?

Finally, I feel I'm at a crossroads with this jeep. If it was you, would it make sense to spend the money and install a fuel injection system or to rebuild or repurchase the weber carburetor? The jeep was free, but I have a lot of body work ahead of me and other investments to make it into a daily driver. I wondering if there is a cheap way to get the jeep reliable for cheap by approaching things by taking it to the bare minimum to make things run. Since it is 1981, I believe it does not have the more complicated emission control systems. So what would be the bare minimum set up just to get it reliable without backfiring under load?

All the help you can provide will be greatly appreciated!

Best,
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  #2  
Old 09-15-2018, 09:33 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Sounds to me like a mechanical issue not a carburetor/fuel issue.
Verify all cylinders are firing?
Verify plug wires installed correctly?

I’d also do a compression test, and a leakdown test before spending any $ on a carb. or parts.
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Old 09-15-2018, 10:56 PM
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Ophale Ophale is offline
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Babywag,

Thanks for the suggestions!

Installed new plugs and wires a month ago. I will confirm everything is correct and look at the plugs to make sure they look Ok.

I will need to find the equipment and instructions to preform a compression and leak down test.

Best,
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Old 09-16-2018, 03:26 PM
440sixpack 440sixpack is offline
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While it's idling slowly cover the air horn with a rag and see if it speeds up or wants to die. you kneed to know if you have vacuum leaks before you get too deep into tuning.


Running too lean or really weak spark can cause your symptoms.
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Old 09-16-2018, 04:22 PM
joe joe is offline
 
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I'm a big fan of the 32/36 Weber on a 258. Infinitely tunable for for any conditions needed...but... that also makes'em easily screwupable if diving in blindly just twisting replacing stuff. A big factor of a Weber swap is the quality/condition of the adapter used to bolt it to your manifold. Be a good/easy place to check for a major vacuum leak. Otherwise my personal rule before tuning ANY carb is insure your entire ignition system is 100% up to spec before tweaking the carb. No idea what the PO did or bought but if the 32/36 was designed for a 258 and not say an MGB(?) new it should work great right out of the box "if" everything else is in spec. In the past using a 32/36 on a 258's I've never had to tweak the stock ign timing for normal on/off pavement use. Go back to basics and "know" what condition/tune the motor is in before you blame or fubar the Weber. The boon of all used rigs is the head banging drill of sorting out why/what the PO did.
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  #6  
Old 09-16-2018, 11:25 PM
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Ophale Ophale is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 440sixpack
While it's idling slowly cover the air horn with a rag and see if it speeds up or wants to die. you kneed to know if you have vacuum leaks before you get too deep into tuning.


Running too lean or really weak spark can cause your symptoms.

Great info! I will put a sock in it (pun intended)... I've been suspecting a vacuum leak at the adapter plates. There tends to be water condensing at the base (adaptor plate) of the carburator on the fire wall side but the front side is dry. Either the plates are not mounted correctly or the gasket needs to be replaced. That may be the source of the air leak at the base of the carburetor.

I'll run the suggested test first and let the forum know what I find out.
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  #7  
Old 09-16-2018, 11:56 PM
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Ophale Ophale is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I'm a big fan of the 32/36 Weber on a 258. Infinitely tunable for for any conditions needed...but... that also makes'em easily screwupable if diving in blindly just twisting replacing stuff. A big factor of a Weber swap is the quality/condition of the adapter used to bolt it to your manifold. Be a good/easy place to check for a major vacuum leak. Otherwise my personal rule before tuning ANY carb is insure your entire ignition system is 100% up to spec before tweaking the carb. No idea what the PO did or bought but if the 32/36 was designed for a 258 and not say an MGB(?) new it should work great right out of the box "if" everything else is in spec. In the past using a 32/36 on a 258's I've never had to tweak the stock ign timing for normal on/off pavement use. Go back to basics and "know" what condition/tune the motor is in before you blame or fubar the Weber. The boon of all used rigs is the head banging drill of sorting out why/what the PO did.

Yes, I have no idea what the previous owner(s) did. I believe the adaptor is the weber adaptor that came with the kit. That said, my goal is to get it to run reliably with the least amount of $ investment initially. I'm glad to hear you have had success with the weber! I'm green at this, so it is the first time for me to muck around with a carburetor. I'm a chemical engineer with little formal mechanical skills. That said, I usually can figure things out, it just takes me longer than the pros. Forums in general speed up the process for me as there are a lot of great people out there, like you and others, who are willing to help with a problem that they have solved in the past.

I will find out if the Weber is actually a 32/36. Perhaps I can find a lot or manufacture number on the carburetor and confirm. I watched a few videos that basically say you need to start out with the air/fuel mixture screw and idle screw at 2 complete rotations from all the way in. I may take the Carburetor off to make sure it is mounted properly (as explained in 440sixpack response). Are there other things I should look for while the carburetor is off?

It's an old Wagoneer that needs some love to get it back on the road. It was operational 5 years ago, since then it sat at a coffee farm in Captain Cook, Hawaii with little attention. It needed to go to the recycler or be rehabbed. I got it for free. I don't know if it is worth it or not being a basic 6 cylinder with a manual transmission. That said, I like it and would like to fix it up (learn to do some basic body work on it, be creative and upgrade the interior to flannel and wood, and re-paint it light green with a 10 ft. quality job) so it could be a respectable daily driver. However, if the engine is toast, it may not be worth it. I have the skills to do basic maintenance on vehicles to more difficult repairs (replacing a clutch in a mini copper). I see the Wagoneer as an opportunity to learn other skills! If I get it to the point that it is reliable and do a few fun upgrades, I really don't care if I loose money on it, as I will gain experience that will be more valuable to me than the lost money on the investment when I sell it in the future.
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2018, 08:36 AM
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nograin nograin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophale
Aloha,
This is what I'm observing, when I have the jeep running with the port vacuum plug and the vacuum advance open to atm pressure, the jeep runs fine at idle, but backfires when you have load or give it gas without load.
If its backfiring through the carb, the timing is too early. Its really the only thing that can set off the fuel and hav eit come back into the intake. Well, unless the valve isn't closing and then you have bigger issues.

If its backfiring in the exhaust its too late, either opening the ports too soon, or letting through too much unburned HC and hot gas that should have been pushing the cylinder down and cooling off in the process.

Quote:
If add the vacuum advance line from the port vacuum on the carburetor, I see the vacuum advance lever on the distributer oscillate back and forth and the engine runs like crap. I placed a vacuum gauge on the line and I see the vacuum pressure oscillate from the carburetor. I'm not sure what this means...
Ported source of vacuum is a hole that should be just above the throttle when idling. It should see 0 to maybe 5"Hg on some.

Put a vacuum gage on an manifold source, and then check on the ported source. If its oscillating on the manifold source, then something is wrong.
If there is more than a couple of inches on the ported source, the throttle is too far open at idle.

Its possible the whole thing is just not setup close enough to get good consistant combustion at idle - hence the need for more thottle (higher idle speed)

Quote:
The timing has been set during all of these experiments at 8 to 10 degree retarded at an unknown rpm (i don't have a RPM gauge). I have backed off the idle screw to a point where it is almost stalling and then turned back a little bit until it sounds better as my start point to set the timing. I'm new to all this, and I'm wondering what is the best way to measure rpm when you don't have a tach in the jeep?


Retard timing was only used as an initial on some smogged engines. To get away with that requires an appropriate carb with idle solenoid and related changes. Glancing at an '82 FSM, looks like the 6 was spec'd at 1600 rpm to have 15* Before TDC. And by subtracting the advance at 2000 rpm, timing at curb idle is probably around 2-5* BTC.



You need a diagnotic tach. Usually found as a Tach/Dwell on one meter.
Also get a timing light, and a vac/pressure gage, plus some golf tees.
You MUST get the timing correct before expecting any measure of success on the fueling.

Generally, a non-smogged (pre-68) engine used more initial advance and then needed less centrifical advance. At driving speeds the resultant timing was almost the same. This is a generalization. Camshaft changes, EGR and some other things mean we can't compare directly a mid 60s engine to its mid 70s or 80s equalivalent.

Quote:
Finally, I feel I'm at a crossroads with this jeep. If it was you, would it make sense to spend the money and install a fuel injection system or to rebuild or repurchase the weber carburetor? The jeep was free, but I have a lot of body work ahead of me and other investments to make it into a daily driver. I wondering if there is a cheap way to get the jeep reliable for cheap by approaching things by taking it to the bare minimum to make things run. Since it is 1981, I believe it does not have the more complicated emission control systems. So what would be the bare minimum set up just to get it reliable without backfiring under load?

All the help you can provide will be greatly appreciated!

Best,


The only reason I'd consider EFI would be to do the crazy things needed to meet emmissions. An '81, especially a straight 6, had lots of emmissions controls as part of the package. Most of the basic emmissions controls were handled by vacuum and temperature switches. But sixes also got some electronic controls by 84. Those add another level of complication and difficulty.

I'd take stock of what emmissions controls the engine had, still has, and what it will need.

If stickers under the hood are missing. Look for the closest ones at Tom Collins Ol' Jeep website.

http://oljeep.com/index.html
There's an '80 diagram, and better yet, a full '81 shop manual.
I'm not saying you have to use all of the original emissions systems, but when cutomizing, need to know what was there and what's still hooked up.

Buying a 'rebuilt' or 'reman' carb from a parts store, or anywhere, often gets you garbage. If it needs new gaskets, or has old fuel that clogged passages etc, clean it yourself and replace the gaskets.

Get the timing correct for idle, readjust the fuel to match, then see where you are at.
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Last edited by nograin : 09-17-2018 at 08:57 AM.
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  #9  
Old 09-17-2018, 09:06 AM
joe joe is offline
 
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Don't be put off cause it just has the 258 and manual trans. The 258 is a solid reliable motor and plenty of power to move a Wag around and easy to rebuild if needed. Also get's better mpg's than the 360. Be glad it's an 81 and not 83-87. 83+ have an insane amount of elec/vac switches and plumbing. Since you're starting from scratch with a non-runner I highly suggest getting the AMC factory TSM (shop manual) for your year. A decent Weber book is "Weber Carburetors" by Pat Braden published by HPBooks. Amazon probably sells it. Since yours has been sitting idle for 5 years odds are good the carb needs a good cleaning especially if in HI your running the corn sqweezins government gas(ethanol). Hope your free 81 is worth rescuing. Enjoy.
edit: for a model number look at the short end of the base. There will be a machined boss or two that will have the model number stamped there. Likely something like 32 36 DGV.
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Last edited by joe : 09-17-2018 at 01:31 PM.
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  #10  
Old 09-29-2018, 11:57 PM
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Ophale Ophale is offline
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It has been a busy two weeks... Just had an opportunity to pull the weber off the engine to look at the part number. What I can read, I have a Weber 32 36 DGAV33B1 046 11 (see picture below).



I'm not sure if this is the weber that is specified for the 4.2L Jeep. So I looked inside at the installed jets. This is what I found:

Idle jet: primary 75, secondary 60

Main jet: primary 145, secondary 145

Air corrector jet: primary 160, secondary 110

Can't seem to pull the emulsion tube.

I also read that I need to have a fuel pressure regulator (set at ~3 psi).

Based what I've read, I'm not sure if this is where I need to be on the jets. I'm beginning to wonder if it makes more sense to just purchase a new carb that is set up for the 4.2L Jeep?

I also took the EGR valve off and found out that it was not connected to the exhaust or could hold vacuum. The EGR valve was plugged at the bottom with a threaded plug and a similar threaded plug was in the exhaust header just before the down pipe. Found gas in the EGR system...

Thoughts on what to do next? Rebuild kit and a jet kit (~$100) or new carburetor ~$275.

I also was wondering about the electronic choke and how it works. It there seems to be one connection to it. Where does it get its signal from (temperature sensor) and is it a voltage or an amp signal? Thinking about changing it to a manual choke, as that might be more convenient for me.

Thank you for all your help!

Aloha,

Last edited by Ophale : 09-30-2018 at 05:42 PM.
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  #11  
Old 02-18-2019, 11:05 PM
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Ophale Ophale is offline
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It's been some time... made progress... but not at the promise land yet...

Aloha!

Since my last help post I've made some progress with couple of issues on the Wagoneer. However, I'm still having issues with tuning the Weber.

Progress that I've made thus far:

I replaced the distributor with an HEI
I replaced the old weber with brand new one 32/36
I replaced the power steering pump
I replaced the starter
I replace the solenoid
I replaced EGR Valve (not hooked up to vacuum or exhaust, have plug where exhaust pipe connection would be on the manifold)

The issue I'm having is with the Weber still: I've been able to set the idle speed screw to no more than 1.5 turns max (as described in the manual and visually confirmed that the progression holes are above the throttle plates). The mixture screw is 2 turns out. I've removed all the vacuum lines from the weber with the exception of the manifold vacuum to the power steering and the S port vacuum to the HEI distributor.

The Wagoneer starts with the choke engaged, but once I warm things up and rev the engine up it stalls at idle. Timing is set at 10 deg BTDC. I've taken off the vacuum advance and have a vacuum gauge on the s port. The vacuum reading is close to zero before it stalls at idle. I've adjusted the mixture screw to lean it out and make it richer, but I can't get it to idle... RPM is about 500 with the choke engaged, 10 deg BTDC, vacuum on the s port at 15" Hg. Exhaust smells rich, plugs are black but not oily. I also sprayed carb cleaner, no change in engine speed... around carb mounting plates or any place where there is a vacuum line.

What would you do next?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
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  #12  
Old 02-19-2019, 12:28 AM
wiley-moeracing wiley-moeracing is offline
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you may have an intake leak at the head, try spraying the mounting flanges top and bottom to see if you pick up rpm.
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  #13  
Old 02-20-2019, 01:34 AM
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Ophale Ophale is offline
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Thanks wiley-moeracing!

Just before I gave up for the day, I started tightening down the intake bolts. I believe I'm on the same wave length as your thinking. I found the front two bolts a bit loose but got into clearance problems with my socket wrench as I moved into the engine bay. I also noticed a vacuum line (I believe it's a vacuum line...) that connects to the back of he intake manifold and goes to a black cylinder mounted above the engine on the fire wall. What is this, and could it be the source of the vacuum leak... Any other potential sources of vacuum leaks to look for on the intake manifold, like ports that may have a sensor or connection I should check to see if it is missing or broken?

Aloha,
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  #14  
Old 02-20-2019, 03:47 AM
wiley-moeracing wiley-moeracing is offline
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try using some carb cleaner and spray all around the ports on the intake( underside also) to check for your vacuum leak, the hose on the back of the manifold I am not sure about unless you can post a pic.
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  #15  
Old 03-09-2019, 07:09 PM
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Ophale Ophale is offline
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Had a few hours free Friday to work on the Wagoneer. Sprayed Carb cleaner in and around the intake manifold, carburetor, and various ports (emptied a can and half). No evidence of a vacuum leak. At this point the only vacuum connection I have on the Carb is to the fuel reservoir and the brakes.

I may open up the carb to reset the float...

Still looking for ideas.

Aloha
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  #16  
Old 03-09-2019, 07:51 PM
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Cecil14 Cecil14 is offline
 
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I burned up a 258 while pulling my hair out trying to figure out a vacuum leak, turned out to be a loose intake. By the time I finally figured it out, the damage was done and I'd cooked a piston. You may consider a new intake/exhaust manifold gasket regardless. That'd also give you an opportunity to get the EGR fixed correctly, if that's something you're interested in doing.


aa
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Old 03-20-2019, 02:54 AM
bagusjeep bagusjeep is offline
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Is it a "Made in Spain" weber? It has to be cast into the body "Made in Spain". There are copies out there sold as Genuine Webers which are not and are often difficult to balance.

Did you read the instructions for the 32/36 very carefully when installing? Did you make sure the manifold adapters were totally flat (I rub mine on emery paper on top of glass). Do you still have the original phenolic spacer? Yes, the right size jets makes a lot of difference, but the Webers work with an idle circuit and a progression circuit before you hit the full load. The throttle butterfly, when adjusted with the curb idle speed screw, should not uncover the progression port. This makes off idle poor. It is covered in the instructions.

Secondly, you have a choice to connect the distributor to ported or manifold vacuum i.e. to have no vacuum advance or maximum advance at idle. I find on the 258 that using the manifold vacuum source at the base of the carb gives a much better response. (I have Weber 38 DGMSs on 2 of my 3 258s).

Advance at idle with the vacuum disconnected of 8 to 10 degrees is fine. However you should verify the ignition markings first, the crank damper can turn on the crank and throw the markings out.

Lastly the real Webers can only handle stock fuel pressures of about 6psi. You can get a Viton seat which will handle more. If you have the original mechanical pump and a return line to the tank from a 3 way filter near the carb, it would run fine. The 3 way filter needs to be horizontal and have the return at the 12 o'clock position. if you are on electric, it depends which one, high pressure pups are useless and require a FPR to tone them down, but they still benefit from the tank return and filter.

Last edited by bagusjeep : 03-20-2019 at 03:00 AM.
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:03 AM
bagusjeep bagusjeep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophale
Thanks wiley-moeracing!

I also noticed a vacuum line (I believe it's a vacuum line...) that connects to the back of he intake manifold and goes to a black cylinder mounted above the engine on the fire wall. What is this, and could it be the source of the vacuum leak...

Aloha,

Could be a vacuum reservoir or a purge cylinder. Either way I suggest you disconnect and plug all ports until the engine gets running smooth, that includes the EGR, brake booster, only leave the distributor connected.
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Old 03-27-2019, 01:53 AM
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Ophale Ophale is offline
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Aloha Bagusjeep,

Sorry for the delayed response to your informative post. I was visiting mom on the main land for her birthday the last two weeks and when I returned my wife just purchased a 2008 BMW X3 for her birthday and I needed to fix some things... Headliner is drooping, expansion tank leaking, brakes needed to be bled. It has 44K miles, and with a little detailing, it should shine and be good to go for sometime. I guess I have a thing for inline 6 cylinder engines... My other car is a unicorn 2009 BMW 328i touring with 6 speed manual. I do have the daily driver, 2004 Tacoma 2.7 4 cylinder 4x4 regular cab...

I digressed...

Yes, it is made in Spain and packaged by Redline. I purchased it new a few months ago.

I have pulled the manifold plates a month ago and wet sanded them down, as I read somewhere this was an issue. I'm pretty sure they are flat and are not leaking (no reaction when I sprayed carb cleaner around the plates).

I also have taken the carb off numerous times to physically see that the progression ports are not exposed and that I'm at or less than 1.5 turns in from contact of the idle screw when choke is completely open.

Currently, I have the distributer port not connected, but was planning to use the port vacuum. My port vacuum line is connected to a vacuum gauge while I'm trying to determine the stalling at idle issue. I been trying to adjust to zero vacuum at idle and keep the engine running. I also have a tachometer connected to the HEI Distributor. When I'm close to zero vacuum (maybe 2-3" Hg) the tachometer is at 250 - 350 rpm.

I think I have a vacuum leak... So far there is nothing connected to the manifold or port vacuum lines to the carb with the exception of vacuum gauge I explained above and the brake booster. I'm now considering that I have a leak in the brake booster system (Check Valve or the booster itself) or the manifold gasket.

My next step is to cap off the brake booster system and see where I'm at. I may pull the manifold off and replace the gasket. I'm a little hesitant to do this first, as I don't want to snap any bolts... I've already tightened the intake/exhaust manifold bolts.

As for fuel pressure, I have a mechanical pump with the discharge going to the fuel filter. Bottom discharge port from fuel filter goes to a Holley fuel pressure regulator set at 2.5 psi. I have a fuel pressure gauge on one side of the low pressure port on the Holley and the other port goes to the weber bowl. Top port from fuel filter goes back to the tank.

Not sure what the vacuum reservoir or purge cylinder is? Is this the round cylinder that is on the fire wall that connects to the intake manifold? I disconnected that too, and capped off. I put a brand new EGR valve in, but it is not connected to the exhaust or the vacuum lines. Capped the exhaust port with an NPT plug and have a end cap on the vacuum nipple.

I also have the PCV system not connected to any vacuum source.

I believe I tested the crank shaft marking by slowly hand cranking the engine until it was top dead center with a chop stick in cylinder one. I believe the marking was very close to zero. I may need to reconfirm with a better method.

Mahalo for all your questions! I think I'm close to getting the old girl to run. I'd like to move on to brakes next...

Aloha,

Last edited by Ophale : 03-27-2019 at 11:49 PM.
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  #20  
Old 06-03-2019, 02:16 AM
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Ophale Ophale is offline
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It's working!!!

I found out why my weber 32/36 wouldn't idle at 0"hg . The spark plugs... When I purchased the Weber and HEI distributer, I decided to replaced all the spark plugs as a cheap and preventative insurance to make things work well right from the start. Didn't think new spark plugs would be an issue... However it turns out that the plugs I purchases were the NGK Platinum plugs. I recently found out Platinum plugs don't work well with the 4.2 l engines. What works well is the "cheap" copper plugs. I stumbled on this when I was talking with my neighbor as he was struggling with tuning his Porsche 356 speedster kit car's carburetor. It ended up that he purchased platinum plugs too and got a tip from a master VW mechanic to replace them with "cheap" copper plugs. He suggested I do the same thing. After searching the CJ forum, more people over there with 4.2 liter engines, I found several members suggesting the platinum plugs made their engine not run well and rich. I now can idle at 0" of Hg and the exhaust doesn't smell like unburnt fuel. Will work on the tuning little more, but I believe I'm basically 95% there...

Next, the brakes... Hopefully this task will be strait forward...

Thanks for all the help, and I hope the suggestions on the resolution to my carburetor issues will be helpful for other members.

Aloha!
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