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  #21  
Old 10-23-2008, 05:00 PM
JeepsAndGuns's Avatar
JeepsAndGuns JeepsAndGuns is offline
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Just saw your jeep in a issue of (I think) diesel power.
I was wondering if it was anyone on here.
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79 Cherokee Chief 401/T18/D20, MPFI fuel injection, hydroboost, otherwise stock.
Future mods: Caddy 500/NV4500/NP205, HP D60 front D60 smooth botom rear, 5.13 gears, 35x12.50's on H1 beadlock wheels. Warn M12000 winch.
93 Wrangler 4.6 stroker/AX15/NP231,SYE,CV, OME 2.5 lift, front hub conversion/big brakes, 31X10.50's Warn M10000 winch.
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  #22  
Old 10-23-2008, 05:41 PM
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The PIG Smith The PIG Smith is offline
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Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotmike
the frame on the jeep was 4 or 5" channel... the dodge frame is 8" channel it's heavier steel and it has some very stout cross members... it is definately a stronger frame... plus it's got a dana 70 rear end... i would think that the frame on a newer gasser would be strong enough... but i don't know off the top of my head... and i could be wrong but i don't believe there's much difference in the frames between the half ton or 3/4 ton jeep frames just a difference in the springs and axle... are you planning on lifting the truck or keeping it low for towing? if you are going to lift it as well you would be better off getting a newer frame because once you do the swap you're already lifted... and i had to shorten my frame but you may be able to find a single cab short box to pretty much match your current wheelbase... it's really up to you how much money you want to spend and how much work you want to do...
Thank you for your answers.

I am seeking a Tow Rig, so no lift for me.
But I was thinking some sorta of body was required because the 6BT is such a tall engine.

You are correct, J10 and J20 are the same.

8 inches is a deep frame.
I went out and looked at my J20's frame under the cab
It measures roughly 6.5"
I think finding a CTD Frame maybe a challenge
I am not worried about how much work is envolved, (well, I am kinda/sorta am)
as much as how much $$$ it would take to convert a Dodge CTD frame to my Jeep body.
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2005 Grand Cherokee Limited - HEMI! Current Daily Driver
1982 J10: Current Project, goal to be roadworthy in 2017: No Cab Brow!
1981 J20: Commercial flat bed. Long term Project: RUST! No Cab Brow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrodoh
...but if it works, I wouldn't touch it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindel
Best laid plans, yada yada yada...
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  #23  
Old 10-23-2008, 06:34 PM
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it's actually much easier then i thought it would be... but it's up to you... just go to a junkyard and do some research... take some measurements...
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J.E.E.P
Just Everyone Elses Parts!
'77 Cherokee Chief
w/ '92 12v cummins,
NV4500
NP 205
e]
Dana 60 Front axle
Dana 70-HD Rear axle
Build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=90702
trailer build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1314880&posted=1#post1314880
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  #24  
Old 10-23-2008, 11:38 PM
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J10Mike J10Mike is offline
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Sweet conversion...But, I'm just curious. Have you taken that heavy front end off road into some serious mud?
Being the owner of a Dodge CTD 4x4, I know that the engine weighs in excess of 1200 Lbs.
In fact, while off road just goofing off, I got stuck going thru a mud hole...Ok, a big mud hole. Granted, my axles are stock and open. But, it wasn't deep enough to get stuck. My old J10 wouldn't have gotten stuck. Yet, my CTD sank deep in the mud up front.
Guys, unless you have an ARB locker in the front D60 and at least a LSD in the rear, that 5.9 6BT is not a good conversion for off road use.
Been there, done that.
It is a great conversion for a FSJ that tows heavy loads. Just don't take it off road and expect it to glide thru those mud puddles...It's just too heavy.
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Former - 1982 J10 Sportside, 360, TFI, 727/208, J20 axles, D44HD/Detroit TruTrac, D60/Detroit Locker, D60 disk brake conversion, 4.10s, 5 inch Superlift, 35x12.5x16.5 BFGs on AR767 Wheels. Procomp Super Seats. MileMarker 9000 on Cliffhanger front bumper. Dozer II rear bumper. Rhino Grill conversion. NP208 floor shifter conversion.


Last edited by J10Mike : 10-23-2008 at 11:42 PM.
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  #25  
Old 10-24-2008, 12:29 AM
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jdaniel83 jdaniel83 is offline
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Location: Texas
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My friend had a similar conversion and he had some of the same issues. His Wagoneer had a lot of power and could pull a house down, but it lost a bit of it's off-road capabilities because of the added weight. Good thing for him was that he didn't do a whole lot of off roading, but one time he had to he felt pretty stupid when I had to get my dad's stock '62 Willys CJ5 with the little 4-banger and Army tires to pull him out. He really felt bad when I went through the same hole he had just gotten stuck in easily, but then again those little Jeeps can go through just about anything.
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  #26  
Old 10-24-2008, 10:28 AM
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gotmike gotmike is offline
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Location: casper, wyoming
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why do you think i have 14.5" wide tires on it??? and i don't really like mud... it plays hell on your seals and axles... i'd rather crawl over rocks and climb hills... we have some pretty good trails around here for that kind of thing... plus with the wagon, the weight is a little more balanced... i got stuck once with the pickup and the main problem was no weight in the back i couldn't get any grip with the rear tires... with the jeep setup and all my tools and straps in the rear, i've got plenty of weight on my rear axle and therefore quite a bit of traction...
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J.E.E.P
Just Everyone Elses Parts!
'77 Cherokee Chief
w/ '92 12v cummins,
NV4500
NP 205
e]
Dana 60 Front axle
Dana 70-HD Rear axle
Build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=90702
trailer build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1314880&posted=1#post1314880

Last edited by gotmike : 10-24-2008 at 10:37 AM.
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  #27  
Old 10-24-2008, 04:25 PM
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gotmike gotmike is offline
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Location: casper, wyoming
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you might also check out http://www.cummins-conversion.com

and if you do go with the 6bt and don't hook up a/c for the jeep you have the option of using the pump for an onboard air system... i did it on my jeep and it works phenomenally...
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J.E.E.P
Just Everyone Elses Parts!
'77 Cherokee Chief
w/ '92 12v cummins,
NV4500
NP 205
e]
Dana 60 Front axle
Dana 70-HD Rear axle
Build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=90702
trailer build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1314880&posted=1#post1314880
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  #28  
Old 01-04-2009, 08:50 AM
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Mikel Mikel is offline
 
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Location: New Haven, CT
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When I parted the 1991 W350 CTD Ram that provided the axles for my J300, I was amazed at how wimpy the frame was and how much it flexed without a body on it. It was C-channel from end to end, yes, taller than a J-truck´s, but a J-frame is half boxed. The spring mounts didn´t look any stouter than those in a non-post mount truck. IIRC, both frames were 3/16" in thickness.


http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...ml#post1700218


Quote:
Originally Posted by The PIG Smith
As I am thinking about a Cummins 6BT Conversation (very long term project) I am concerned about my Jeep Frame and have some questions.
When you say the Dodge Frame is heavier than the Jeep frame, I am assuming that that you are comparing
a Jeep Cherokee/Wagoneer style frame to a Dodge 3/4 ton pickup truck frame.

I am considering a Cummins 6BT in a J truck.
So, would like to think a 3/4 ton Jeep frame is about the same strength as a 3/4 ton Dodge frame.

There has been some discussion on this forum in the past that if a person uses a Jeep Frame for a 6BT swap,
that some reinforcing of the frame is required (boxing?)
But, I will assume the folks that report this modification requirement is speaking about the 1/2 ton rated Cherokee/Wagoneer frame and not the J Truck frame.

I am writing to ask that you elaborate on the why you felt you needed to use the Dodge frame.
What does the Dodge frame provide?
Deeper frame rails?
Thicker material?
Stronger steel?

If you convince me that a Dodge Frame is the way to go, would a frame from a Dodge 2500 gasser be the same as a powered be a CTD?
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Last edited by Mikel : 01-04-2009 at 09:00 AM.
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  #29  
Old 01-04-2009, 09:51 AM
ob1jeeper
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel
When I parted the 1991 W350 CTD Ram that provided the axles for my J300, I was amazed at how wimpy the frame was and how much it flexed without a body on it. It was C-channel from end to end, yes, taller than a J-truck´s, but a J-frame is half boxed. The spring mounts didn´t look any stouter than those in a non-post mount truck. IIRC, both frames were 3/16" in thickness.


http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...ml#post1700218
There are many significant differences in the two frames...
- While the Jeep frame may be boxed, it is:
1) of lighter material thicknesses
2) has a much smaller section modulus than the open C-channeled Dodge frame

- Additionally, the Dodge frame is made of HSLA steel, where the Jeep frame is simply stameped cold rolled steel.

- Finally, the Dodge frame has been designed to spread the stresses caused by a engine of nearly double the weight of the one the Jeep frame was designed to handle, and to handle the torque pulses of that engine.

There is absolutely no comparison, and no question that the Dodge frame would be more durable in a CTD application.

Last edited by ob1jeeper : 01-04-2009 at 09:54 AM.
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  #30  
Old 01-04-2009, 10:30 AM
Mikel's Avatar
Mikel Mikel is offline
 
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Location: New Haven, CT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ob1jeeper
There are many significant differences in the two frames...
- While the Jeep frame may be boxed, it is:
1) of lighter material thicknesses

I´d like to mike both frames, but the Dodge frame I junked seemed to be .188, just like the Jeep frame.

Quote:
2) has a much smaller section modulus than the open C-channeled Dodge frame

If I´m correct about the thickness, there is no way the boxed part of the frame has a lower moment of inertia than the front half of the Dodge frame, even with an extra 1" or 1.5" in frame height

Quote:
- Additionally, the Dodge frame is made of HSLA steel, where the Jeep frame is simply stameped cold rolled steel.

What is your source on this? And in 1990?

Quote:
- Finally, the Dodge frame has been designed to spread the stresses caused by a engine of nearly double the weight of the one the Jeep frame was designed to handle, and to handle the torque pulses of that engine.

There is absolutely no comparison, and no question that the Dodge frame would be more durable in a CTD application.

The Dodge frame has more reinforcement in the engine area (in the form of massive crossmembers), which the Jeep frame never needed because of the lighter engines that were used, and the lower moments that the engine mounts applied to the frame.

Regards,
Mikel
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1963 J300 Swivel frame

Last edited by Mikel : 01-04-2009 at 10:37 AM.
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  #31  
Old 01-04-2009, 12:11 PM
budojeepr budojeepr is offline
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Location: Redding, CA
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Hijack alert, sorry fellas...

Why is it that if you mention putting a diesel in a Jeep (or in this case, a Jeep on a diesel) people jump in and recommend frame boxing, etc., but if you mention hot-rodding a 401 to put out comparable torque (and much more horsepower) everybody just gives you the "rock on" emoticon?

Just askin'.
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  #32  
Old 01-04-2009, 02:21 PM
imiceman44 imiceman44 is offline
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Join Date: Feb 25, 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by J10Mike
Sweet conversion...But, I'm just curious. Have you taken that heavy front end off road into some serious mud?
Being the owner of a Dodge CTD 4x4, I know that the engine weighs in excess of 1200 Lbs.
In fact, while off road just goofing off, I got stuck going thru a mud hole...Ok, a big mud hole. Granted, my axles are stock and open. But, it wasn't deep enough to get stuck. My old J10 wouldn't have gotten stuck. Yet, my CTD sank deep in the mud up front.
Guys, unless you have an ARB locker in the front D60 and at least a LSD in the rear, that 5.9 6BT is not a good conversion for off road use.
Been there, done that.
It is a great conversion for a FSJ that tows heavy loads. Just don't take it off road and expect it to glide thru those mud puddles...It's just too heavy.

I bought a K5 blazer that had a 5.9 TD put in it, it still had stock 1/2 ton axles but a few added leaves on the springs to support the weight, I put lockers on it and some 35"x12.5" tires and wheeld it for years until the frame broke a few places, the weight in the front was actually great for the uphill climbing, I took some hill that where 40 degrees, no one could climb as high as I did except the purpose built buggies with long wheel base and really low body for that type of terrain, and they only did it with speed, I crawled it.
The one thing I couldn't do well was the snow, I still did fine but when I hit powder, no matter what I did I couldn't get enough floatation, I had to just keep the momentum going and hope I don't get stuck.
The frame however didn't like the vibration and the torque, so it had cracks all over the first 5 feet of the front.
Now I have a crew cab frame I am working on shortening to put my engine in and maybe make a stretched blazer.
Or if I don't sell my waggy use that on the frame.
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  #33  
Old 03-24-2009, 08:18 PM
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gotmike gotmike is offline
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Location: casper, wyoming
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i figured i'd copy this in from another post... just to keep it all in one thread









i still have to fabricate some battery holders before it hits the trail... and mounting the battery disconnects should be easy to wire in with the eyelets on my battery cables...

there is one main cable running to the starter from the main battery (LH battery)... and then connected to the starter lug i ran another line off to power things up front and tie into the alternator charge line, and then i ran one line from the main positive terminal to the auxilary positive battery terminal, and a line from there to the other side of the front with much smaller wire (8 gauge) to power my fan and my OBA compressor clutch... that way it will draw charge through both batteries and keep both charged... when i get my disconnects i will take the main cable to the first disconnect and a jumper from there to the second disconnect... and then from the second contact on each to each independant battery...

each battery has its own ground bolted to the floor, and then from the under side of the floor to the frame... good grounding is always important...
__________________
J.E.E.P
Just Everyone Elses Parts!
'77 Cherokee Chief
w/ '92 12v cummins,
NV4500
NP 205
e]
Dana 60 Front axle
Dana 70-HD Rear axle
Build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=90702
trailer build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1314880&posted=1#post1314880
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  #34  
Old 03-24-2009, 08:19 PM
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gotmike gotmike is offline
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Join Date: Aug 31, 2008
Location: casper, wyoming
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i'll be building covers into the battery trays that will cover them on the in-cab side... with metal instead of cardboard panels, but leave the in fender side open via a vent hole... so if they do vent they'll vent into the fender and out one of the many holes there bear in mind, cars such as jaguars and other luxury cars keep the battery under the back seat... beside that i don't have a rear window... just a canvas/plastic snap on flap

the cover will also protect them from something loose in the rear touching terminals and shorting anything out... since i keep tools and recovery devices back there...

i'm also open to other suggestions... two sets of eyes on something are better than one...
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J.E.E.P
Just Everyone Elses Parts!
'77 Cherokee Chief
w/ '92 12v cummins,
NV4500
NP 205
e]
Dana 60 Front axle
Dana 70-HD Rear axle
Build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=90702
trailer build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1314880&posted=1#post1314880
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  #35  
Old 03-24-2009, 08:20 PM
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gotmike gotmike is offline
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Location: casper, wyoming
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this is kindof the idea i have for my battery trays

the side rails on the top won't actually touch the battery... don't want them to accidentally touch the terminals... the front will have a catch on it that tightens the whole thing down... and then probably a piece of intertube rubber across the top to insulate things... the whole top and front will be one piece that will pivot up to get the battery out if i need...the back rails will extend up to just under the window to make everything really secure... i'll be putting quick connect points front and rear for a winch and/or jumper cables... it's going to be more of a recovery vehicle than anything else... i have a lot of friends who do some serious wheeling... and they usually get stuck...
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J.E.E.P
Just Everyone Elses Parts!
'77 Cherokee Chief
w/ '92 12v cummins,
NV4500
NP 205
e]
Dana 60 Front axle
Dana 70-HD Rear axle
Build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=90702
trailer build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1314880&posted=1#post1314880
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  #36  
Old 04-09-2009, 05:19 PM
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loganvilledude loganvilledude is offline
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Location: Loganville, GA
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Well Mike I have to admit after searching through these threads for a diesel conversion you're s seems like the one I would like to tackle. Good job.

What does the wheel base measure out at on the '90's" model standard cab 4x4 Dodge truck?

Thanks,

Mike
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  #37  
Old 04-09-2009, 05:41 PM
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gotmike gotmike is offline
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the wheel base on mine (single cab long box) was still 20 some inches too long... but there is a nice straight section just behind the cab where you can shorten the frame without too many problems... it is right between two cross-members... it pretty much sticks the cross members right up against each other... helps minimize the lateral flex on the frame so it isn't as weak as it could be if you cut it elsewhere... there are several ways to cut the frame... i cut mine at a diagonal... easiest way to get it to match up after the cut... but you have to fish-plate the welded area... so far i've beat it up pretty good and haven't gotten any cracks at all... one thing i did to help out too was to make some step/rock sliders that bolt onto the frame and help with supporting the length of the frame under the passenger area... plus mine's a little tall so the bars help to get in the thing...
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J.E.E.P
Just Everyone Elses Parts!
'77 Cherokee Chief
w/ '92 12v cummins,
NV4500
NP 205
e]
Dana 60 Front axle
Dana 70-HD Rear axle
Build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=90702
trailer build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1314880&posted=1#post1314880
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  #38  
Old 04-26-2009, 06:43 PM
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gotmike gotmike is offline
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Join Date: Aug 31, 2008
Location: casper, wyoming
Posts: 503
got me a PTO winch to mount up front now... i found an old Koenig winch from the front of a bronco that will fit perfectly in between the frame rails on my front end... and its set up for the shaft to be on the passenger side and everything... i figured i can't beat it for $100 bucks... i think it's missing the little brake piece... but i'm thinking that i can figure out a better way to set up a brake on it anyway...
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J.E.E.P
Just Everyone Elses Parts!
'77 Cherokee Chief
w/ '92 12v cummins,
NV4500
NP 205
e]
Dana 60 Front axle
Dana 70-HD Rear axle
Build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=90702
trailer build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1314880&posted=1#post1314880
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  #39  
Old 05-05-2009, 06:29 PM
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MAPit MAPit is offline
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Posts: 181
what are the down sides to going diesel? besides cost and wight?
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  #40  
Old 05-25-2009, 11:04 PM
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gotmike gotmike is offline
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Join Date: Aug 31, 2008
Location: casper, wyoming
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had a guy asking about this build again... so i'm bringing it to the top...


as for the down side??? none... starts as well in the cold (with the cummins) easier to maintain/repair... easier to wire/diagnose wiring issues... better fuel economy... i'd much rather have a diesel in my rig than a gasser any day... if i had the time and money i'd upgrade my wife's jimmy to a 4bt... but they're getting pricey...
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J.E.E.P
Just Everyone Elses Parts!
'77 Cherokee Chief
w/ '92 12v cummins,
NV4500
NP 205
e]
Dana 60 Front axle
Dana 70-HD Rear axle
Build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=90702
trailer build thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=1314880&posted=1#post1314880
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