What is so grand about a Wagoneer?

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  • Panoscopic
    350 Buick
    • Jan 24, 2001
    • 1351

    What is so grand about a Wagoneer?

    I don’t want to become flame bait, but just ask an honest question and start a debate. We all love these cars, but lets get real – in their later days they were over priced, under-performing and incredibly unreliable. It is hard to believe this model lasted for 28 years, especially past 1980 when gas prices were at a record high, and people were standing at long lines at the pump and there were many, more sensible alternatives.


    My wag, Panoscopic (bsweigert.tripod.com/Wagoneer.html) has been in our family since it was new. I have every document that associated with the car since it was delivered new, and two-inch thick pile of maintenance documents for the typical Wag maladies – rear window inoperative, leaking power steering pump, windows not working, rough idle, well, you know the drill. Seemed typical of what you would expect of AMC at that time, or any other car manufacturer ready to go bankrupt.

    I remember when I borrowed the Wag for a weekend when it was new. I could not help but think that I could rent a compact car and the gas savings would pay for it versus driving the Wag.

    Think of the price of these cars. The original sticker in 1986 was $23,465. In today’s dollars, that is at least $50K. For a 25 year old truck design gussied up with fake wood (which was a ‘70’s cliché and already out of style) and leather trim. Who would buy these kind of cars? Turned out they were doctors and professionals who bought these for second cars. But that price, who would put up with such poor quality? For that kind of money, you could drive a Mercedes Benz, Land Rover, or a Toyota Land Cruiser or two Chevy Suburbans. Frankly, if I had bought Panoscopic new, that would have been the last American car I would have owned, ever!

    I was a person who was always attracted to German and Japanese sports sedans and always had these cars tuned to perfection. It seemed odd that I would fall for a car like the Wag, but there was just something about it. To this day, I can’t tell you why I like it.

    When my Aunt traded up to a new Grand Cherokee, I said, “Don’t sell the Wag! I’ve got to have it”! The next day I was on an airplane to LA to drive Panosopic back to Chicago.

    I put a lot of love and some dollars into getting Panoscopic nice. I tried to make her my daily driver, but alas, I love her only when I can deal with her on a part-time basis. The horrendous fuel economy and regular repairs that occupied my every weekend were just too much for me, and sorry to say, her 40 year old chassis just was too crude to deal with on a daily basis. Hey, and Panoscopic is a nice wag – 75K original miles and from SoCal!

    But hey, I have to admit, she has a lotta class! You just don’t see them as nice as mine around here in the Midwest. Lots of people have stopped as asked me about it. Older folks tend to look on in approval – given the incredible model run, they can all remember them. The younger people just snicker as they blast past in their tuned Honda Civics.

    I’ve now replaced Panoscopic with a new 2001 TJ as my daily driver. Yes, TJ is a crude road car too, but with modern build quality and engine control systems, it is a world of difference. I keep Panoscopic for occasional drives and weekend runs to the Home Depot, where her quaint antiquity is entertaining, not annoying.

    Lastly, why do I call her Panosocpic? My favorite feature of the Wagoneer is the roof-line, and the rear pillar. In the 1963 debut at the Geneva auto show, the design was termed Panoscopic, referring to the panoramic visibility of the roofline. Being a child of the sixties, I can’t help but love it!

    So, what do you like about your Wag?
    Jeepless....now and for the foreseeable future
  • Unknown Jeep
    232 I6
    • Sep 06, 2001
    • 96

    #2
    What do I LOVE about my Wag? It is Big, Ugly, Sucks down the fuel, handles like a Truck Rides like a caddy. Driving down the road I look over the **** box Econo cars and they don't pull out infront of me. I can haul Everything from my wife and kids to the nextdoor neighbors Washer/ Drier/ Refridge/ Wide screen TV/ Couch/ Toolbox/ Go off roading with any and all in Comfort and saftey. I don't worry about putting a Scratch in the paint, And have yet to even dent a fender rubbing it up to a tree.

    Name anything that will do as much, Easy to work on, and does not look like the Jelly bean popcans that the Big 3 are putting out in the last 15 years? Yes we still have to jump through hoops getting parts, Finding shops that know how to work on them, and Are 50's design.

    Find another truck that has this much following, this much Tech help, and ANY group that has this many members....

    Troy
    Elf in Tampa
    The first, last, and only name in Off Road.... JEEP

    Comment

    • solar@clnk.com
      232 I6
      • Aug 02, 2001
      • 114

      #3
      A Jeep Grand Wagoneer is PURE CLASS!!!

      Comparing a Jeep Grand Wagoneer to later SUV's, including post 1991 Jeep Wagons, is like comparing a fine steak to a hamburger!

      A Jeep Grand Wagoneer DOES turn the heads of young folks. It reeks with Quality!

      A Jeep Grand Wagoneer cruises on ice and snow like no other vehicle!

      A Jeep Grand Wagoneer is Good, Solid, Safe, Reliable transportation.

      Riding in STYLE in a Jeep Grand Wagoneer is well worth the extra gasoline it consumes!

      People who own a Jeep Grand Wagoneer are the salt of the earth!

      Go Here and LQQK at the line-up AND the prices that pristine Jeep Grand Wagoneers fetch! If you don't own one, WE FEEL SORRY FOR YA!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.wagonmaster.com/complete.htm

      Mike
      1990 Grand Wagoner FSJ<br />Charcoal/Maroon (stock)55k miles since new.<br />\"Pretty Near Showroom Condition\"<br /><br />1978 J-10 FSJ Pickup<br /><br />1948 Willys Jeepster<br /><br />\"Beauty is in the behind of the beholder\" ?Prof. Irwin Corey

      Comment

      • Stuka
        • Jan 21, 2001
        • 13743

        #4
        Well.....while I dont own a Wag.... doo own its more "sporty" 2dr version...a Cherokee [img]smile.gif[/img]

        And I love it. Its my daily driver...I can beat most cars to 60 with ease....I get alot of looks from people who dont know what it is....I can tow anything.....Haul anything that willl fit in the back.....can go through 2ft of snow with ease....go wheeling just fine....and i get almost the same gas milage as a new grand cherokee with a 4.7L, with the added bonus of having a good deal more power [img]smile.gif[/img]

        So again..what is there not to love?

        Comment

        • Bob Barry
          Jeep Doctor
          • Apr 09, 2000
          • 8335

          #5
          As much as I love my GW today, I have to agree that back in 1989, when I *was* looking for a new car, even if I could have afforded a new GW (which, as a newly-married grad student, I couldn't) I wouldn't have bought one. I mean, c'mon, a 25-year old design, for over $25,000??? Running a carburetor? I think the only other things with carbs at that point were the base cheapo Civic and Subaru Justy (more in my price range).

          I didn't know much about the GW's, but considered them antiquated, in a bad sense.

          Now, though, the appeal is obvious. On Saturday, I took our three usually-installed car seats out of our GW to take three colleagues up to Boston for a meeting on Saturday. Then on Sunday, I folded that rear seat down and hauled home and back an overseeding machine that I rented to do the lawn. Then the seats were back in so my wife could take the girls out shopping for groceries today.

          Did I mention that among all the bills I have to pay this month, NONE of them are car payments? And the only work it has required in the last two months has been adding oil?
          1987 J-20
          Video projects for my J-20 on Youtube

          Comment

          • reddog
            304 AMC
            • Jul 26, 2000
            • 1767

            #6
            I know the reputation GWs have as being unreliable but the two I have owned have not been bad in that department at all for thier age/milage. Yes they have the "list" of items but looking at those they are really minor. Figuring the cost I think they compare with just about any newer SUV. Sure the Caddy(Tahoe) and the MB, Lexus or Range Rover are sure nice but at a price $$$ - if that is your "type", but I believe that by the time they are 14-15 years old like my 87 they will be a bigger PITA to fix and have just as much go wrong with them as any GW.

            The fact that waggys have been around so unlong and changed so little in that time says alot about the original design and functionality. Yea the milage sucks - but the newer SUVs suck too!

            If your wag has only 75K on the clock then what kind of weekly repairs does it need?? Yes it is "crude" but that is part of its "charm".

            The one thing I find very interesting is after reading the thread on what occupations the members around here have that there is ALOT of well educated highly inteligent people that love thier Wags/Cheros. The quality of the people at this site also speaks volumes about the FSJ charm. I would put this group up to ANY group on the web in respect to their ablilty to bring diverse backgrounds and views to the table here and to exchange such great info in such a reasonable and polite manner.
            While I would have a hard time putting my finger on what it is about these vehicles other than their off road ability, versatility, the classic lines, its onroad drivability, the longevity of the drivetrain I do know that NOTHING in the price range can match it - except maybe for gas milage . Hey - IT'S A JEEP THING - if you need it explained to you - you wouldn't get it anyway. JMHO

            Kerry
            87 GW<br />4\" Skyjacker system<br />TFI upgrade<br />360,727,NP229<br />it looks a little more like RiverBeast - and I\'m not dreaming!...<br />... just another 10 inches or so to go ...<br /><br />and NOW with an interesting bend to the body...

            Comment

            • Joe H.
              304 AMC
              • Jun 03, 2000
              • 1934

              #7
              When I got my first FSJ, I was transitioning from my first new car ever: a 1991 Geo Tracker 2wd that blew up (the head--literally!) after 162k trouble-free miles. I was dirt-poor, darn near homeless and bartending odd shifts to eat. I'd always wanted another CJ (had one when I was 16--bad move) but couldn't find one in my very low price range. I looked for Scouts, early Broncos, you name it. Everything that wasn't a basket case was at LEAST $5000.

              Then I saw it: a 1978 Cherokee Chief, sitting in a front yard with a big "for sale" sign on it! I sold the now-blown up Tracker (best car in the world--I will hear no bad vibes cast upon it!) and grabbed the Chero.

              The day I bought it I had to install a water pump...like, REAL FAST!!! That started a chain reaction of repairs--you know the old saying about 'breaking the seal.' Anyway, I got broke again and had a p*ssy landlord who objected to my non-moving Cherokee sitting in the back of my apartment. Tried to sell it, it rebelled and the prospective buyer went home unhappy (sorry, Daniel!). Got that fixed, tried to drive it to Auburn, CV joint let go and took a nice chunk out of the tranny pan with it (sorry again, Daniel!). Finally sold it, and nothing else broke. I think it didn't want to go.

              Anyway, I'm now driving a '91 Wag and I miss that Chero! It was perfect for me: basic transportation that would go flat anywhere, and the gas mileage was decent for the type of vehicle. If I stayed out of the secondaries, I got around 14 mpg WITH A 401!!! Now that I'm steadily employed again, I've been looking around for another Cherokee. Guess what: people ain't sellin' 'em. I don't really like the Wag--it's too plush, too geared for lux runs to the country club and grocery store and soccer practice. It just doesn't LOOK right.

              COuld I as a starving college student have picked a better vehicle? Sure, if your definition of better involves economy. I wanted to drive a vehicle that made me grin every time I grabbed my keys, and that's what I ended up buying.

              Jeeps are very basic vehicles at heart. They were designed and built at a time when people did a large part of their own maintenance and repairs. They didn't offer computers because they weren't needed--the Grand Wag was never about economy, it was about a serious American alternative to the Range Rover class of lux-utes. This was a field Jeep pioneered, and they're now looking at getting back into it.

              To this day, I have people (the ones who laughed earlier) come up to me and ask what happened to 'that cool old Jeep' I used to have. When I tell them that it's gone, they shake their heads and say, 'too bad.' My feelings exactly. I never wanted a Wagoneer--I actually don't LIKE leather seats! If I wasn't still paying on this one I'd look for someone to swap with.

              Having said ALL that, I can identify with your point of view. However, that same argument can be extended to Mustangs (another American classic), Hummers (and I couldn't agree more!), BMWs (sorry, Andy!), Mercedes et al.
              1991 Grand Wagoneer<br />...stock daily driver

              Comment

              • jeepbob
                Jeep Idiot
                • Jan 16, 2001
                • 2513

                #8
                If you think Wags, even at the end, were bad, you have not compared them to the other rigs in thier class. Just try to find a Blazer or Bronco (full size on both). My step son has an 89 Blazer and my brother has an 88 Bronco and they both have to spend a lot more on maintaince than I do and thier rigs do not wheel, ride, or drive as well as my 65 does and my Wag is a lot more solid than either. The Wags also have a lot more style than either.
                65 wag. with a bunch of stuff done and more happening.<br /><br />\"If the local junkyard calls you for Jeep parts, you might be a redneck\".... and yes they do!

                Comment

                • Chero77
                  350 Buick
                  • Jun 24, 2000
                  • 1214

                  #9
                  In a lot of ways, I agree with Panoscopic. I cannot imagine why anyone would have bought one of these beasts new in the late '80s. They were extremely overpriced with dinosour technology. I mean like a three speed automatic and a balky feedback carb in '89. And how about those solid axles front and rear. Maybe Chevettes, Justys and a few other econo cars sported this kind of equipment, but not much else.

                  On the other hand, what may have been a horrible new car, can make a nice project or second car. A lot depends on what you plan to do with it. If you think your going to buy a 25 year old car and use it as a daily driver your in for a big headache. Driven daily, I think anything this old (unless its been thouroughly rebuilt) is going to break down fairly often.

                  However, if its a project or a second car, it can be a fun vechicle. Which is why I own mine. I like my '77 Chero, because I think its one cool looking truck. Appearance wise it could have been made in '67 which is about when most people think it was made. Yes, it does all kinds of things that I would never tolerate in a new car, but in the old Chero I call it charm. Also, I've rebuilt mine to the point where its quite reliable. Note, I said reliable, not comfortable. Now that its in shape, I find myself driving it to work from time to time and on weekends just going out to drive for the sake of driving. I guess these old cars are an acquired taste. The FSJ's time has come and gone, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun to own, restore, hotrod, build for offroad, customize, or even lower (if that's your thing) and heck even drive.

                  [ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: Dave _S ]
                  \'73 AMX Javelin 401 (work in progress), \'77 WT Cherokee.

                  Comment

                  • porchpiggy
                    350 Buick
                    • May 13, 2001
                    • 925

                    #10
                    I'm gonna stick my neck out a little, so please don't flame me too bad. Anything you can do in a Wag you can do better in a Suburban. Except off-road. To me the Wag is just the right size. Big enough to haul and pull, but being just a little narrower and shorter than the Sub has it's advantages on the trail. Not a short wheelbase, but not too long. A little bit quirky, but that only adds it's personality, and I have to admit I find it more attractive because not everybody on the block has one. Yea, it's a jeep thing, and I understand, because I have one. It's easier to park too, according to my wife.
                    Porchpiggy<br />\"To old and slow to run with the Bigpiggys\"<br />88 GW and 79 Suburban<br />GARY IS THE KING OF GENERAL D.

                    Comment

                    • jasonthomasfrance
                      304 AMC
                      • Sep 04, 2001
                      • 1518

                      #11
                      I like my wag... I was given an 81 Dodge Aspen when I was 17. I got it stuck in the snow alot (MN). It was rear wheel drive and BIG.

                      Then I joined the USAF and went to Iceland. I bought a russian Lada. It was rear wheel and very small. But still a four door. After my high school days and piling in cars, I wanted a 4 door to fit people in. I wrecked the Lada (lada-:o:o:o:o) in the snow. It was fun to drive though...

                      So I went to Australia, didn't have a car. Then came to Texas. After five months of walking I went over my price range in a Tracker. After 6 months of payments I got in a wreck...

                      Then I went looking for a Jeep. Always wanted one. Hated getting stuck. Wanted something big enough to fit people into. Bought a little Cherokee XJ. Too small. And I rolled it.

                      Then finally bought a 76 Waggie. Did I mention I know nothing about mechanics? This Wagon is teaching me. And it's my daily driver. It's solid and roomy.

                      It is a jeep thing, I do like the older 'burbans though. If one had been available for 1000 or so I might have got it...

                      It's a jeep thing... Whatever... How much more American than a Jeep? And the name is fun to say. Jeep Jeep. Like a Mustang, except off-road. The images that come to mind when the name Jeep is spoke.

                      I'm 24 and my other friends have massive car payments. And I work on the Jeep on the weekends. I think it's a fair trade. (i also own a 89 subaru as the "saver" vehicle when the jeep won't take me to autozone )
                      jason thomas france
                      GoFSJ.com/fsj

                      Comment

                      • tuckers89GW
                        304 AMC
                        • Oct 17, 2000
                        • 2365

                        #12
                        well, I'd bought mine for a daily driver. Until I bought the racer, I drove it 100 miles day most days. I am paid milage so it more than paid for my gas. I have never had a problem that would leave me stranded.

                        I think the alot of the appeal to them is their styling. Not everyone has one. Today look at all the designing that returns memories of yesteryear. Functionality is another large appeal. This is my second wag and I'll have more or keep this one. I've only been stuck once with it in the snow and it wasn't the jeeps fault. 4' snowdrift 1/8 mile long is just a little too big for a stock vehicle.

                        Personally I would rather work on my GW once a month than have large car payments on a new one. Which I also have. The wife drive a new Windstar and $500 payments month are huge, but it still has problems. I've had 3 recall on it in the last year. Fixing a GW will always be easier than fixing any new vehicle. all that computer crap just takes too much $$$ for the diagonstic tools. Yeah they are designed with WWII techinalogy and were very overpriced in the later years to make it a good buy, but they did sell. I would love to have had a new one. anyway

                        Comment

                        • Dan
                          232 I6
                          • Aug 15, 2001
                          • 248

                          #13
                          Here's my story. My wife and I have a Pontiac Bonneville which is fine car to get around town in, but I needed a second vehicle when we both need to work or whatever. I've gone through several different cars, all about 10-20 years old, and they all required a good amount of work. The problem was that I just didn't like driving these POS cars around. The thought of working on them and pouring money in them to keep 'em running just was not appealing whatsoever.

                          So, I decided to get a truck or SUV. A 4x4 that was older, but still had some modern luxuries. I was looking at early-mid 80's Broncos. But then I passed an 85 GW for sale on the side of the road on a fishing trip, and checked it out. I passed on buying this particular one, mainly because the PO had ripped out all of the A/C and the price was kind of high, but it began my search.

                          I found one out of state and drove 1,000 miles to bring it back. Now, I can say that I actually enjoy working on this thing. I never thought I could like working on a vehicle besides my Mustang. But it's easy to work on, and I like the feeling I get when I drive this thing around. The list of items to be fixed goes on and on, but I don't really care. I'm paying less on parts than I would on monthly payments.

                          I don't think I really answered the question of why I like my GW. I've always liked these trucks for some reason. I think it is because of, not in spite of, the classic 60's styling (I also own a '66 convertible Mustang). I like the luxury items that you could get. Power everything (when they work). The same things that also makes our Bonneville nice to drive in town. Plus, it has some guts, can go places that others can't, and is built solid. Who knows, it's mysterious. And in MN, I never see any FSJ's. I could go for a few months and not see another around. When I do, they're mostly rusted out. I kind of like sticking out a little sometimes!

                          I am so glad that I found this forum with all of it's wonderful people ready to share their passion and help. You all have also made my work much easier and enjoyable.
                          \"Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.\"<br />Oscar Wilde<br />------<br />1986 GW <br /> -TFI<br /> -Performer Intake<br /> -Edelbrock 1406 4bbl Carb<br /> -Leaks fluids like a waterfall

                          Comment

                          • BigTex
                            230 Tornado
                            • Sep 30, 2001
                            • 1

                            #14
                            I bought my GW this past February when on a business trip to Boston. I'd been renting a brand new 4-Runner to the tune of about $500 bucks a week and was restricted from taking it off paved road So I picked up the local paper looking for some kind of junker 4X4 that could handle the snow and an occassional logging trail on the rock bound coast. The only thing I could find was my now beloved '89 GW with 126k miles, a couple of corner dings, but otherwise in great shape. I figured that for the $2500 price that the original owner was asking, I could bang around for the remainder of my trip and then sell her and have driven it for free. FAT CHANCE - I fell in love.

                            Yeah the tailgate window has been a problem, (rebuilding it now). The back seat windows are slow.. I have the same problem with my '94 Caddy.

                            Gas mileage? I just took a trip from D.C. to Texas and back and averaged 15.4 MPG on the road - not really all that bad - I've done worse with Blazers and Subrubans from the same era.

                            Rust? Ok, so there's some underside rust, checked out a 80's vintage Ford lately?

                            When I bought it, I thought that they were rare, but when I got home I found that there were 5 more in my small neighborhood. I just hadn't paid any attention before - now we all wave in passing.

                            I've named her "Hannibal" - originally in honor of the Carthaginian general famous for crossing the Alps with Elephants - although I've come to believe that the $ upkeep may also closely track that of owning an elephant, but hey, I'm a pet loving guy. And where else can you find a really butt ugly vehicle that will draw so much attention - it's almost PT Cruiser Retro.

                            My other cars are the afore mentioned Cadillac and a '93 Corvette. When I want to do 160 MPH on the highway, I drive the Vette. When I'm on the way to the opera, I'll go in the Caddy - but when I want to pull a house off the foundation, haul a trailer, climb rocks, punch through the woods on a logging trail or see above the crowd on the Beltway - Hannibal gets the nod.

                            Why do we love them? Hey, why do we love our wives and kids? I don't even try to do "Why" questions when it comes to love - it just is, and that's enough.
                            \"Hanibal\"<BR>\'89 GW<BR>360 - Stock as a Rock (so far)<BR>My other car is a Corvette - opposite ends of the spectrum.

                            Comment

                            • Erix Jeep
                              232 I6
                              • Aug 23, 2001
                              • 222

                              #15
                              I am now driving my second FSJ. My first was a '78 Wagoneer in the midwest so had all the typical rust probs. I did a SOA and flipped the shackles, put on a set of 31x10.5 mud tires and went wherever I wanted to go! That truck had the 401 QT combo, it was definitely a hoss. I could, and did, pull 6-7 thousand pounds with it, throw all kinds of tools in the back, and then flip up the seats and carry passengers in relative comfort.

                              When I moved to CA, I bought an '82 Toyota 4WD pickup and enjoyed it, but didn't like the lack of power and no AC. So I traded it for this '85 GW and love it! Now I have power windows (Sometimes), power door locks (Sometimes) and comfy seats, cushy ride, yet can still haul more than I could fit in the Toy!

                              Why do I love these gas hogs? Because they do everything I want to do, and yes it is my daily driver. My gas bill is nearly $150 a month just for the GW, not including my wife's car. But I don't have a car payment! It has character, and just "feels" right when I drive it. I have a great view of the traffic around me, and the power to go where I want to. Some people in this area wonder if I am really poor or something to drive such a vehicle, but I didn't buy it for them, I bought it for me. And personally, I love it!
                              Build it to last, then drive it like you stole it!<p>1985 GW 360/727/D44/AMC20 w/TFI upgrade

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