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  #1  
Old 09-27-2019, 07:03 PM
ZackN920's Avatar
ZackN920 ZackN920 is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Nov 18, 2015
Location: Stephenson County, IL
Posts: 906
Frame Strapping-- thoughts?

Well, the driver's side frame rail is all fixed. I cut a piece of 1/8" by 2" angle iron to size, modified it a bit and welded it into the frame that I cut rot out of. I also made up and welded in 3 fishplates on the backside for added support.

I'll post a few pics later (not on flickr yet) and maybe even open a new thread in the fabrication section of this site to showcase my work.

Today I was making, shaping up, generally working on a 1/8" piece to use as strapping for the drivers side. My original plan is to go from the bend in front of the rear wheel to a few inches past the boxed section of the frame to overlap my repair. I would do the same to the passenger side just to keep things equal and hopefully lesson any chances of odd stress cracks from appearing.




Now, from my understanding- strapping will strengthen the frame and make it stiffer, but in what manner? I'm HOPING it will stiffen it in such a way that I can close my tailgate if the Jeep isn't parked on a flat surface (because its never been able to before) but will it change the ride any? I already have a bouncy ride (in the rear) due to the aal. Will it make this worse or be the same as before?

I'm wondering this stuff, because today while working and looking over my frame, I'm thinking it should be more than strong enough to not need strapping.


What does everyone else think of this? Especially if you have strapped a frame on another vehicle. How did it stiffen it up? Will it help with closing my tailgate when on uneven ground , or should I say it and not bother?
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1990 Grand Wagoneer-"The Crapwagon"
AMC 360, TF727, NP229, 3.31gears, 2" lift
Rancho 44044, Rusty's 2" AAL, TFI
...not too rusty anymore
Plenty of patina

The others
1926 Dodge Brothers Business Sedan 212 I4-CRANK START
1987 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series-5.0 AOD (WD)
1987 Dodge Dakota LE 3.9, A999, 3.90 gear (DD)
1994 GMC 'Burban 5.7, 4L60E, NP241, 3.42 gear (DD)
2001 Jeep Cherokee 4.0, AW4, NP231, 3.73 (limbo)
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  #2  
Old 09-27-2019, 10:44 PM
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ZackN920 ZackN920 is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Nov 18, 2015
Location: Stephenson County, IL
Posts: 906
Well, here's some "progress"!

Gas tank removed.


Rust/rot cut out and back to solid metal that I can weld to.



New piece I fabricated from 1/8" X 2" angle iron.



New piece welded in and painted to keep from flash rusting. (Still was not done at this point)





Fishplates on the back side.



New piece I worked on today for use as the "strapping" on the drivers side frame rail. It still needs more work for better "fit" and to be shortened on the side I made an angle to (to follow the inward bend of the frame rail to the boxed section up front)


I've got a lot more pics and could go more into detail, but that is not for this thread. I want to find out more about what others think about the theory and expected outcome of strapping this frame.
__________________
1990 Grand Wagoneer-"The Crapwagon"
AMC 360, TF727, NP229, 3.31gears, 2" lift
Rancho 44044, Rusty's 2" AAL, TFI
...not too rusty anymore
Plenty of patina

The others
1926 Dodge Brothers Business Sedan 212 I4-CRANK START
1987 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series-5.0 AOD (WD)
1987 Dodge Dakota LE 3.9, A999, 3.90 gear (DD)
1994 GMC 'Burban 5.7, 4L60E, NP241, 3.42 gear (DD)
2001 Jeep Cherokee 4.0, AW4, NP231, 3.73 (limbo)
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  #3  
Old 09-27-2019, 11:29 PM
wiley-moeracing wiley-moeracing is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Feb 15, 2010
Location: arizona
Posts: 1,087
Keep going you have done a lot of work but I would have swapped the frame.
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  #4  
Old 09-29-2019, 11:08 AM
ZackN920's Avatar
ZackN920 ZackN920 is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Nov 18, 2015
Location: Stephenson County, IL
Posts: 906
Wow, I'm surprised nobody's ever modified their frame and has absolutely no advise or opinion on the subject of strapping.

Even more surprised that the only person that did post doesn't seem to have anything useful to say, even though he builds race jeeps... I would think you would have something to say regarding how stiff the frame would be after adding a strap to each frame rail between the spring hangers... Unless of coarse you build your own frames from scratch for those race Jeeps.

You like to drill into me every chance you get, don't ya... "...but, I would have swapped the frame". ...sure

I'm not sure you would. If you, or it seems 95% of the people here would have bought this Jeep 4 years ago instead of me, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't swap the frame. It seems the consensus around here is that my jeep SHOULD have been parted out, cut up and sent to the crusher because of all the rust. I'm sure you'd do the same - part it out...

You are right though, I have done ALOT of work to this Jeep. This frame work by itself has taken something like, 30-40 hours but a frame swap would have taken me months. It's nowhere near as simple as you make it sound, especially with a rust bucket. I'd have to cut all the body mounts for 1, and re cut up the floors I fixed to get to the top sides. Then I'd have to swap the drivetrain, swap the axles/suspension, brake lines, wires, misc. that I'm forgetting, and then what? I'd still have a jeep with a wonky body and bad paint that's not worth anymore than it was before. So quit telling me to swap the frame...



I'm sorry if I sound like a dick in this post, but I'm trying to get my point across. Either way, I'm doing it now (the strapping that is). I guess I'll just guinea pig this and find out for myself. I got the drivers side finished up yesterday, I'll get the passenger side done sometime early this next week, and hopefully get the frame fixed at the rear spring hanger on the drivers side by the end of this upcoming week. I plan to put the Jeep back on the road by November and I got a lot more work I want to do before that.

(clean up my skid plate, reinstall the gas tank and new lines [again], change out some more vacuum lines[going to the charcoal canister from behind the transmission], cut out air tubes from pass side manifold and weld them shut[hopefully seal my exhaust leak], pull the valve covers and check what clattering in the drivers side valvetrain, check how the valve stem seals look, new valve cover gaskets [so it doesn't smoke so much when I open the hood!], install new weather strip around the tailgate glass, re-align tailgaite...again and probably a bunch of stuff im forgetting!)
__________________
1990 Grand Wagoneer-"The Crapwagon"
AMC 360, TF727, NP229, 3.31gears, 2" lift
Rancho 44044, Rusty's 2" AAL, TFI
...not too rusty anymore
Plenty of patina

The others
1926 Dodge Brothers Business Sedan 212 I4-CRANK START
1987 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series-5.0 AOD (WD)
1987 Dodge Dakota LE 3.9, A999, 3.90 gear (DD)
1994 GMC 'Burban 5.7, 4L60E, NP241, 3.42 gear (DD)
2001 Jeep Cherokee 4.0, AW4, NP231, 3.73 (limbo)
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  #5  
Old 09-29-2019, 12:16 PM
Kaiserjeeps's Avatar
Kaiserjeeps Kaiserjeeps is offline
304 AMC
 
Join Date: Oct 02, 2002
Location: Mooseville Northern Idaho
Posts: 2,246
I sure wish I was more caught up with everything. Or I did not feel so rushed to get done what I feel I need to. I have wanted to catch up on the site's postings and see what everyone is doing. When I opened your thread I expected to see common mistakes and I can't say I do. I have some frame repair tech info that is pretty old. It was from International Harvester and is tucked away in a file. The most common mistake is welding in thicker metal than the frame metal itself. And square cut and welded ends. Frames can't flex correctly when a big square patch is welded in. Plus a square cut end is now where all the flex is forced to originate and that pretty much is a guarantee that the weld will crack and fail. None of that in the pictures. The only thing some of the repair stuff suggests is on fish plates, only welding the tips of the end. Not the slope from the horizontal weld down to the tip of the plate. So insignificant in your case and the big plus from a complete weld is sealing out moisture and corrosion later. Honestly your work is beautiful. The patches blending in so in the end it is hard to see it was done.
Very nice repair and for sure I would have done a repair verses changing the frame. It is to bad the frames rust like that to begin with. Kind of a design flaw with dirt getting captured there. I also know what it is like not getting sought after feedback when you ask for it. Especially when you know plenty of people are looking. I think it is just inherent in lots of threads now days. Wether you are asking questions on a camper, a rig, or ??
You should make those patches for the lower frame rail. I'd bet you would sell them.

EDIT... I never answered the strapping thing. I would put back what was there and not add to it past the fishplates. Thicker sections will not flex the same as the area around the repair with it being thicker. Get a good end weld and watch it later. Sometimes on a frame flange, I will weld a crack out to the edge. Then about a 1/4 inch back, I have welded a 1 inch long light weld 90 degrees to the repair weld. Like crossing a tee. Sort of like a small dam that a new crack will have to break through if it is trying to crack again... It seems to have worked so far on CJ's..
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1969 1414X Wag,
1970 and 71 project J trucks
1970 Wagoneer Not Sadie
1983 FJ60 wagon
CJ-5's and a 7

Last edited by Kaiserjeeps : 09-29-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:23 PM
MrN2OBelvedere MrN2OBelvedere is offline
230 Tornado
 
Join Date: Sep 26, 2015
Location: Georgia
Posts: 23
I would have passed on that one. Rusted out frame rails. All that heat induced stress from welding. Could cause cracking anyway. Good luck.
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  #7  
Old 09-29-2019, 11:00 PM
Kaiserjeeps's Avatar
Kaiserjeeps Kaiserjeeps is offline
304 AMC
 
Join Date: Oct 02, 2002
Location: Mooseville Northern Idaho
Posts: 2,246
I don't think it will have an heat induced stress cracks. Most post work cracks are from improper repair methods. And what about frames that are heated to cherry red in a body shop to make collision damage go away? Heat induced stress cracks are over rated.
I put a partially boxed military frame under my 69 CJ-5 25 years ago and using the same thickness metal, boxed the entire frame with full welds including welding up the cracks it already had. There were plenty. Tons of amatuer weld heat. Tons of high stress flexing through 10 very abusive runs through the Rubicon, shoestring, and every trail found in Tillamook, three roll overs, and this summer not one crack after 25 years of more flex than most full sized rigs will ever see. I did a new clutch about three months ago and examined my frame very carefully front to back. I was pleased. The repair documentation from IH shows multiple repairs welding up damaged frames. The patch piece grafted in has tapered end cuts. That alone will deter flange cracks at a weld. It's pretty well done really.
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------------------------------------
Am I done yet?

Holy Moly, I am done.....

Most users ever online was 656, 06-30-2007 at 09:50 PM.
I was there! Still waiting for my Tee shirt...

1969 1414X Wag,
1970 and 71 project J trucks
1970 Wagoneer Not Sadie
1983 FJ60 wagon
CJ-5's and a 7
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  #8  
Old 09-30-2019, 04:18 AM
wiley-moeracing wiley-moeracing is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Feb 15, 2010
Location: arizona
Posts: 1,087
Your not being a dick but may feel insulted but I am being honest. Are you trying to save money? time? Your frame is the keystone to your truck and a proper, safe build depends on it. Your methods are sound in theory and will probably work for now but what about the rest of the frame? I get you have a "rust bucket" keep working at it and it can be repaired, my suggestions are to help you save time and money and maybe yours or someone else's life. It should not take you 40 hours to swap a frame but will take some friends and some proper tools/shop equipment to do it safely. And yes plate and repair with the same thickness of metal and box the frame to help strengthen it.
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  #9  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:15 PM
threepiece threepiece is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Sep 17, 2005
Location: Farmington Hills Mi.
Posts: 1,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZackN920
Wow, I'm surprised nobody's ever modified their frame and has absolutely no advise or opinion on the subject of strapping.
!)[/size]
I'm not sure if you will find it helpful but you will probably find pages 11+ of my build thread below interesting.

The truck is not done yet so I have no input on how it performs.

One suggestion I will make for the next time you or someone else does a frame repair like this is to avoid intersecting edges in your repairs. Some of your patches are shaped with sharp inside and outside corners. The points where the edge lines intersect can be stress risers that can later initiate a crack if stress is present.

One method to cut out areas of frame is to drill holes at all changes in direction of the trim line, the larger the holes the better. A cut-off disk or saw can be used to cut between the holes. On page 5 post 49 and 50 of my build thread below you may find a helpful tip for doing such a repair.
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Last edited by threepiece : 10-04-2019 at 11:03 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-13-2019, 06:32 AM
rocklaurence rocklaurence is offline
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Posts: 1,676
IMO, your doing it the right way. I had to patch and box my CJ5 frame and did it exactly like you. However, I strapped the top and bottom of the frame and welded in two cross members as front and rear bumpers. Adding the strapping will strengthen the frame some but still allow twisting.
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  #11  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:24 PM
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ZackN920 ZackN920 is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Nov 18, 2015
Location: Stephenson County, IL
Posts: 906
Hey guy's. Sorry about not getting back sooner. I don't know what my problem is, I've been reading the posts, just haven't felt like posting myself.

Just like to say thanks for the replies. Few of the tips, I wish I knew sooner. Oh well. Lot's of good stuff here.

Well, no pics for now but a little update.

It's all back together! I ended up doing the strapping. I just felt better about doing it and having more material for my repair to be connected to... in general more support. I also want to stiffen the Jeep up. It really pee'd me off last winter when I'd park in a pile of snow, open the tailgate and then have to leave it open because it would not close back up. I'm hoping this will help remedy that.

I also added a large fishplate type of patch to the frame at the rear most spring "shackle box" mount. It was rusting out as well and I don't/didn't want the spring to end up going through the floor. In the mean time, I also replaced the rusted/frozen parking brake cables, fabbed and welded in the parking brake cable holder on the drivers frame rail and went through the rear brakes. Then adjusted the parking brake assembly to work properly.
Finally, after paintwork, some re-wiring, remounting of wires/fuel lines I cleaned up and fixed the skid plate. Not much wrong with it, just some loose surface rust here and there. Got the fuel tank re-installed on Thursday with new rubber lines and everything all back together. Now instead of only relying on 2 nut/bolts to hold the tank(and some "Oh " bungee's), I now have 5! (I still need to fab a new triangle bracket)

I tested my repair out by flexing the Jeep... Got a dirt pile out back that's about 3ft tall, stuck it in 4LO and drove over it. First with the pass. side, turned around and did it again with the driver side. Never done that before! It's weird hearing the door seals shift when driving over an obstacle that lifts a wheel off the ground!
Well, it passed! No cracks or bends anywhere on the frame and everything is still "true" and where it should be. I'll be keeping a close eye on it this winter and next spring, but I think im good to go.
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1990 Grand Wagoneer-"The Crapwagon"
AMC 360, TF727, NP229, 3.31gears, 2" lift
Rancho 44044, Rusty's 2" AAL, TFI
...not too rusty anymore
Plenty of patina

The others
1926 Dodge Brothers Business Sedan 212 I4-CRANK START
1987 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series-5.0 AOD (WD)
1987 Dodge Dakota LE 3.9, A999, 3.90 gear (DD)
1994 GMC 'Burban 5.7, 4L60E, NP241, 3.42 gear (DD)
2001 Jeep Cherokee 4.0, AW4, NP231, 3.73 (limbo)
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