Best way to get Front disk brakes in a 64 Gladiator?

[crypto]

All: Ive got a 64 gladiator Ive been working on for 2 years, here what she looks like these days:



This heavy-Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley truck with 33"s on it doesnt stop very well with the 4-wheel drums it has on it, despite them having all new hardware in them.


Has anyone done a brake swap in something like this before?

The obvious answer of "swap the front axle" is a no-go because of a few problems:

1. passenger side diff drop means the transfer case would have to go.
2. closed knuckles and kingpin means the steering gear would have to go too.

I'm looking to get disks on this thing with a minimum amount of rework.

Ive seen the FSJ disk conversion that B.J.'s Off-road sells, but I dont want to pay $700 for it plus a master cylinder and balancer, and its got custom rotors so I'd be screwed if I put a big gouge in one.

So, anyone with some advice whos been-there-done-that would be greatly appreciated.

[Tornado230]

Haven't done this, but have researched some options.
This one will require a ring and pinion change, but it will give you an open knuckle axle.
You will have to overcome some obstacles, since your front end now has spring over the axle.

http://panther4x4.com/Scrambler/Dana44/

[Mikel]

How about something simple like adding hydroboost or a double diaphragm vac booster from a J20?

I am one of those who believe a newer axle will give you the most bang for the buck.

[44BZ]

There's a $500 kit at the-jeep-guy.com, which I purchased but haven't installed yet. I think it's the cheapest kit available. You can also just do a google search for "dana 27 disc conversion" and the process is the same for the dana 44. All the parts are GM or FSJ mainly.

As far as your concerns for the rotor and master cylinder, the rotor in the kit is for a 77-78 CJ7 I believe and easy enough to come by. For the master cylinder you can use the stock drum/drum part and remove the pressure spring to run disc/drum, so no extra cost there.

JP magazine has done a couple articles on this conversion, using junkyard parts, which cuts the cost by about half.

Great looking truck by the way

[babywag]

Can't speak for a '64 J-truck, but can relate my experience on a '73 wag.

Researched, and analyzed cost of converting stock stuff to disc up front was wasted money and not pleasant to the wallet.

I decided swapping axles, booster/master/hard lines/wheels/tires from a parts truck to be cheapest/easiest.
Paid ~$400 for the whole truck, sold the leftovers and the swap was virtually FREE.

There were some minor issues with steering that popped up.

Even buying all the parts separately would have been less than converting just the craptastic front axle to disc.
But I still would have had craptastic D30 front axle.

Chevy axles are dirt cheap, I wouldn't spend a penny on your existing axles.

[Mikel]

Can't speak for a '64 J-truck, but can relate my experience on a '73 wag.

Researched, and analyzed cost of converting stock stuff to disc up front was wasted money and not pleasant to the wallet.

I decided swapping axles, booster/master/hard lines/wheels/tires from a parts truck to be cheapest/easiest.
Paid ~$400 for the whole truck, sold the leftovers and the swap was virtually FREE.

There were some minor issues with steering that popped up.

Even buying all the parts separately would have been less than converting just the craptastic front axle to disc.
But I still would have had craptastic D30 front axle.

Chevy axles are dirt cheap, I wouldn't spend a penny on your existing axles.

I thought J-trucks never mounted a D27...

[Rockwell_B1]

Not to hijack the thread, but shouldn't this be easier than it is being made? I mean, my Gladiator brochure from '63 lists disc brakes as an option. Forgive my ignorance though, I'm not too well versed in the Gladiators.

Input-wise, I'd say look around at all your options and find an axle swap that would work for the cheapest route. You'd be surprised at all the different versions of the exact same axles out there. I learned this the fun way when I had my MJs and K-10s. Great looking truck btw, the first time I have ever liked a black rhino.

[FSJunkie]

Not to hijack the thread, but shouldn't this be easier than it is being made? I mean, my Gladiator brochure from '63 lists disc brakes as an option. Forgive my ignorance though, I'm not too well versed in the Gladiators.

Input-wise, I'd say look around at all your options and find an axle swap that would work for the cheapest route. You'd be surprised at all the different versions of the exact same axles out there. I learned this the fun way when I had my MJs and K-10s. Great looking truck btw, the first time I have ever liked a black rhino.

I've never heard of disks being avalible on ANY FSJ untill 1974.

Usually the problem with drums is nothing more than the tendancy to fade when they heat up, which is very easy to to, especially if one is not familliar with drum brakes. Drum brakes actually take less pedal effort than disks in many cases because of the way drums use the force of the primary shoe to multiply the force of the secondary. They actually stop very well, untill they heat up.

My Wagoneer has 11"x2" drums at all four wheels and they are not power assisted. I have absolutely no problem locking up wheels with my skinny little leg. The same can be said for the 4 wheel drum non-power brakes on my Rambler.

Power boosters only reduce the amount of force the driver has to apply to the pedal, they do not stop the vehicle any better.

The biggest improvement one can make for their drum brake system is to get finned drums. The fins cool things off and keep the brake fade away. Once the brakes start to heat up, then you DO have to press hard, and that only heats them up more, and more, etc.... pretty soon the linings are totally ruined. Driving style is the other biggest thing to help drums.

Most drum brake problems can be solved by bleeding and carefully checking everything in the wheel units. There is alot to go wrong in there, but if everything is correct, then they should work as good as disk brakes up to about 55 MPH and if you don't ride them on mountain roads. Above that speed a stop will start to heat them up and repeated use at moderate speeds will heat them too.

If your brakes don't work like disks with a little more pedal effort if they are non power at any speed, then something is wrong, and more ofen than not, it is simply a self adjuster installed on the wrong side or a fatigued return spring.

I see that your truck has larger tires than stock. larger tires reduces the ammount of leverage the brakes have to stop the vehicle, and will reduce their effectiveness. Because of that, disks might not be a bad idea.

[tgreese]

Regarding the previous comments -

These are 11"x2" Bendix drum brakes. A '75 CJ-5 has the same brakes, with finned drums. If the drums will fit into your wheels, changing to the finned drums is simple.

This truck should be a closed-knuckle Dana 44 front. The '73 Wagoneer that Mikel has came with a closed knuckle Dana 30, only used in the early '70s Wagoneers, not trucks. You won't gain much strenggth by upgrading to a later axle; an axle from a J-truck will be another Dana 44, with an open knuckle. The main advantage besides the brakes will be a reduced turning radius, and you'll get rid of the closed knuckle maintenance issues.

Lots of Jeep closed-knuckle axles have been converted to disk brakes. The procedure for all the Jeep closed knuckle axles is the same - refer to one of the many articles online about this: http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticl...lus/index.html - I'd also do the knuckle stud conversion, new seals, and check/replace the king pin bearings.

[Carnuck]

My '73 J4000 came with power drums on all 4 and it stopped fine, even when towing a full loaded E350 cube van that was loaded. (of course the rears were J20 D60 and full float)

[crypto]

Well, I've had all 4 brakes on this thing serviced by a shop staffed by Full-Time Grown-Ups, and I believe it was a competent brake replacement they did.

As it stands now, with those 33"s on it, I can absolutely not lock the brakes up, even with both feet on the pedal, and me pulling against the steering wheel.

I have to do the 2-foot brake thing in city traffic too often for me to be comfortable, which is why I came here looking for options.

It is a closed knuckle, narrow-track D44 in it, with the diff on the passenger side.

Apparently getting an open-knuckle narrow-track D44 with disks and the diff drop on the passenger side is like finding a unicorn, because I've never been able to find one.

And yeah, the turning radius on this thing really sucks. Its a good thing that this truck doesn't care about curbs, because I usually end up driving over them during a u-turn.

I've thought about the Hydro-boost, but the only thing that frightens me more than the brakes I have is the thought of the brakes I have being entirely manual if the engine dies.

[Mikel]

I've thought about the Hydro-boost, but the only thing that frightens me more than the brakes I have is the thought of the brakes I have being entirely manual if the engine dies.

Hydroboost units have an accumulator that gives you a couple of assisted steps on the brake pedal before you lose all boost. Exactly like vacuum boosters.

In both cases, the trick is to keep the engine spinning if it dies or you will lose power steering too. Don't step on the clutch pedal if you have a manual trans.

[mdill]

You want a wide trak axle not a narrow trak axle, for disks there are the conversions listed above for the current axle, if you want to swap axles, I think a 74-77 J-10 (small spindle) with Ford rotors swapped on for the bolt pattern.
But it would still be work (gear ratio right, converting the axle to sping over ..)

Well, I've had all 4 brakes on this thing serviced by a shop staffed by Full-Time Grown-Ups, and I believe it was a competent brake replacement they did.

As it stands now, with those 33"s on it, I can absolutely not lock the brakes up, even with both feet on the pedal, and me pulling against the steering wheel.

I have to do the 2-foot brake thing in city traffic too often for me to be comfortable, which is why I came here looking for options.

It is a closed knuckle, narrow-track D44 in it, with the diff on the passenger side.

Apparently getting an open-knuckle narrow-track D44 with disks and the diff drop on the passenger side is like finding a unicorn, because I've never been able to find one.

And yeah, the turning radius on this thing really sucks. Its a good thing that this truck doesn't care about curbs, because I usually end up driving over them during a u-turn.

I've thought about the Hydro-boost, but the only thing that frightens me more than the brakes I have is the thought of the brakes I have being entirely manual if the engine dies.

[addicted]

You want a wide trak axle not a narrow trak axle, for disks there are the conversions listed above for the current axle, if you want to swap axles, I think a 74-77 J-10 (small spindle) with Ford rotors swapped on for the bolt pattern.
But it would still be work (gear ratio right, converting the axle to sping over ..)

Supposedly some '77's came with the small bearings but the switch over was the '76 model from all my research to convert my '71 Wagoneer to a better front axle with discs.

If you can't find a small bearing front W/T 44 you can always use Ford outer knuckles and the rest of the outer Ford stuff to convert a newer one over.

[Jeepguy77]

Power boosters only reduce the amount of force the driver has to apply to the pedal, they do not stop the vehicle any better.

Actually they do help, since power boosters make pedal force easier, they are used with larger master cylinders. So you actually do get more braking force with power brakes, but it doesn't all come from the booster.

I would maybe go with just the front axle swap, and switch to 5 lug outers. Nice truck BTW