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  #301  
Old 09-10-2012, 06:14 PM
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Mikel Mikel is offline
 
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Hello Resbum,
There is no question that moving the turbo away from the combustion subtracts energy due to thermal and frictional loses. But as you so eloquently say, there are many other factors at play, which may give you a net gain.

Yes, I have that book too

Keep us updated on the build. Been drooling over it since you started.
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  #302  
Old 09-12-2012, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel
..., there are many other factors at play, which may give you a net gain. ...

Mikel
A gain is way more than I could ever hope for. I'm just hoping I've put enough thought into it that there won't be noticeable lag.
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"What year is my truck?... Which part?" Build thread- http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/view...p=18290#p18290
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  #303  
Old 09-13-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resbum
A gain is way more than I could ever hope for. I'm just hoping I've put enough thought into it that there won't be noticeable lag.

Perhaps some thermal tape might help?

Keep up the good work. Actually no, you are making the rest of us look bad
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  #304  
Old 09-14-2012, 04:10 PM
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Yep. That's what I meant when I said "wrap". I have a 50' roll of 1 inch Thermo-Tec Cool It.

What I don't use on the turbo relocater I'll use on some of the water pipes that run near the exhaust.
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"What year is my truck?... Which part?" Build thread- http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/view...p=18290#p18290
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  #305  
Old 09-17-2012, 10:08 AM
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ross80truck ross80truck is offline
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Be careful with the exhaust wrap. I wrapped a header going to a turbo once. It was a very thick manifold too, and in less than a year the header cracked horribly. This was not a cast manifold, it was a custom welded stainless steel manifold on an old Mustang SVO with a 2.3 Turbo motor. I would recommend staying away from the wrap and sending the manifold off and having it ceramic coated instead. I believe that you will be much happier with results.
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  #306  
Old 09-18-2012, 05:11 PM
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Thanks Ross.

It is getting ceramic coated inside and out. Then wrapped. This is a combo I've used before with very good results.

I appreciate your advice from first hand experience.
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"What year is my truck?... Which part?" Build thread- http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/view...p=18290#p18290
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  #307  
Old 09-21-2012, 06:56 PM
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OK. Now I'm not sure if I'm going to wrap the relocator, or not. After consulting Gearge, at Turbo Technologoies, ceramic coating is out. He does not recommend it on stainless and I'm not sure if I want to wrap it without it coated. I'll decide later.

ONE MONTH, that's how long the turbo relocator has been in fabrication. I'm not going to go into details, but I can safely say that the welder I was using on the project up to this point is no longer involved with anything I do in the future. The relocator has now been cut apart three times. I think that should clarify just how much B.S. I've been through trying to get it done.

I can say that it's almost finished now. The guys at Turbo Technologies have been a God send. They've bent over backwards to squeeze time in between jobs to do some welding for me on the relocator and various intake parts.
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Originally Posted by Resbum
"What year is my truck?... Which part?" Build thread- http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/view...p=18290#p18290

Last edited by Resbum : 09-27-2012 at 07:37 AM.
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  #308  
Old 09-21-2012, 07:08 PM
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So what have I been doing besides working on the turbo relocator?

I've been getting other things ready for doing the engine break-in.

I installed the front sheetmetal and did the fabrication for permanently mounting the radiator and intercooler.

I ended up with a perfect 2" gap between the fans and front of the engine.




I moved the upper mounts from the front side to the back side and used the stock Dodge mounting rubbers top and bottom on the intercooler. The bottom rubbers sit in 1" diameter holes in the stainless sheetmetal and the front of the sheetmetal will bolt to the front valiance. There's enough room between the intercooler and radiator to mount the oil and trans coolers between them.




The radiator hoses are the stock Dodge hoses for the engine. I cut 3" off each hose at the engine end and they fit like they were made for it. The air intake plumbing on the drivers side is all done, too. Just need to wait for the clamps.




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"What year is my truck?... Which part?" Build thread- http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/view...p=18290#p18290

Last edited by Resbum : 09-28-2012 at 09:45 PM.
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  #309  
Old 09-22-2012, 05:29 PM
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Very nice!
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  #310  
Old 09-22-2012, 10:22 PM
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Still following this and always look forward to the updates. The intake plumbing is looking good - it's got me thinking about some new intake ideas on my 360.
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  #311  
Old 09-23-2012, 07:47 AM
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Thanks.

I had a huge, "Ah ha" moment while working on the intercooler the other day.

It never even remotely crossed my mind while fabricating that if I'd turned the intercooler up-side-down all the plumbing would have been more direct, that much shorter, and farther away from the tires.

The plus side to not doing it is that the intercooler hoses now won't compete with where I mount the radiator overflow tank and the windshield washer tank. Plus, they won't interfer with working on anything underneath them.

So, I guess it's a, "six one way, half a dozen the other way" situation.
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  #312  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:07 PM
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IT"S FINALLY FINISHED!!!!!

I can't begin to offer enough thank you's to Turbo Technologies for helping me get the turbo relocator finished with all the welding they did for me.

Here's some pictures of the test fit. I ended up with 2" of clearance at the firewall and 5 1/2" below the floor. With the downpipe ceramic coated and shields and heat barrier material in the proper places I shouldn't have any problems with heat soaking into the cab.








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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resbum
"What year is my truck?... Which part?" Build thread- http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/view...p=18290#p18290

Last edited by Resbum : 09-27-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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  #313  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:08 PM
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Pictures from the bottom side. It's going to fit perfectly between the framerail and front driveshaft.




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  #314  
Old 09-26-2012, 04:47 PM
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Are you planning to support the turbo with any bracketry or leave it hanging off the pipes? Seems like the pipes will take a lot of stress with that giant turbo hanging on them.


aa
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  #315  
Old 09-26-2012, 05:37 PM
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Sorry. I meant to mention earlier that I'm going to build a support for it. I need to think on it to make sure I build something that offers support, but still lets the pipe flex with the hot/cold cycles.
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"What year is my truck?... Which part?" Build thread- http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/view...p=18290#p18290

Last edited by Resbum : 09-27-2012 at 07:49 AM.
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  #316  
Old 09-26-2012, 10:58 PM
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Yagan Yagan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resbum
In regards to a lot of energy, probably not. I might lose some, but I don't think so.

Bare with me for a moment here. This may seem off-topic, but it's not and I do get back around to your comment.

A little info about automotive history in the USA. Ten years before you could buy a turbocharged 2002 Subaru WRX in the US it was available, and very successful, around the rest of the world. Even then, the one we got in the States was underpowered compared to the ones around the rest of the world. Another example is the old Toyota Pickup and 4Runner. Anywhere else on Earth a person could buy one that came with a turbo diesel engine, even in Canada. Those engines never did make it to the US. These are just two examples, but ones I have personal experience with.

Why did these two cases happen? Because the US government makes our DOT and environmental laws so overly complex and expensive that it's not profitable to the automakers to jump through all the hoops to import those engines here.

Now my personal experience. I bought a 1999 Subaru Impreza RS and turbocharged it. When I was finally happy with how it ran it launched so hard it would got through first gear so fast that I'd bang the engine off the rev-limiter before I could shift to second gear. For those that don't know, Subaru uses flat-four engines like the old VW Bugs and Porsches. Because of this design it's almost impossible to have somewhat short, equal-length exhaust runners. In this case the shortest was around 1 1/2 feet and the longest was over 4 feet.

While I was building and refining this engine the one thing I did that had the biggest single affect on engine performance was change exhaust runner diameter. I bought an aftermarket header that had 1/4" bigger runners. That header introduced a very considerable lag in turbo response and I took it back off and sold it to a guy running normally aspirated. He absolutely loved it, but it sucked @$$ on a forced induction engine. Why? Because the larger diameter tubes slowed down the gas velocity. I ened up running the stock Subaru exhaust wrapped.

Here is a must read for anyone who likes to gain knowledge through reading. Corky Bell's book, "Maximum Boost". http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-.../dp/0837601606
It's an incredible resource about turbocharging.

The four things I took from it about spool up while building the Subaru is heat, velocity, compressor blade selection, and flow restriction. Match those and you're in the ballpark.

For my truck:
Heat- The hotter a gas the more volume a given amount will occupy. My extension is going to be ceramic coated and wrapped and I'll have very little heat loss through it. This is also why I had the Cummins manifold ceramic coated.
Velocity- It's the product of heat and volume. Because I won't lose much heat that won't affect velocity. The outlet of the manifold and inlet of the turbo both have two port-matched rectangles. I chose round tubes that have a very similiar cross-sectional area to those rectangles, so I shouldn't lose velocity going through larger volume tubes.
Compressor blade design- Both the BD Super B turbo and Colt cam I chose have quicker spool up over stock. Even if I have some loss through the turbo relocator the turbo and cam will probably make up the difference.
Flow restriction- My original plan had the gasses making two tight turns in opposite directions. That is more disruptive to flow than having the gasses make a longer, more gradual, 360 degree loop.

With all of that long-winded typing behind me I can say I don't really expect the turbo relocator will have much adverse affect on performance. If it does I'll just have to live with it since there's no way I can run a turbo without it.

Resbum

[FONT='MS Shell Dlg 2','sans-serif']Hey Resbum. [/font]
[FONT='MS Shell Dlg 2','sans-serif']1. I love your deisel build. What an inspiration! [/font]
[FONT='MS Shell Dlg 2','sans-serif'] 2. I love the brief rundown on US automotive history and turbo/ diesel engine constraining by departmental regulation. [/font]
[FONT='MS Shell Dlg 2','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='MS Shell Dlg 2','sans-serif']Here in Aus we have been lucky. We have been able to obtain all the models you speak of and more in turbo diesel. Now the market here is at an advanced stage for TD engines. DOHC 4 Valve/ cyl heads, high pressure CRD, VGT’s and intercooling is now just par for the course…[/font]
[FONT='MS Shell Dlg 2','sans-serif'][FONT='MS Shell Dlg 2','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='MS Shell Dlg 2','sans-serif']My 010 D90 has all of that crammed into the remainder of its archaic design. A small displacement Ford diesel. It is truly a miraculous engine and along with the six speed box - the highlight of the car! [/font]
[/font]

[FONT='MS Shell Dlg 2','sans-serif'] [/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Velocity- It's the product of heat and volume[/font][FONT='MS Shell Dlg 2','sans-serif'] ? Not exactly. Indirectly - definitetly. With higher temps you have higher operating pressures in your system correct? Are you expecting this to increase velocity?[/font]
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  #317  
Old 09-26-2012, 10:59 PM
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Yagan Yagan is offline
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that'll teach me for cut and pasting from my email software to try to act like I can spell properly!
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Baby Blue - 81 Cherokee S 4 dr
Twin Trans Coolers no longer in radiator flow path
Baked Copper Coated B&M Deep Trans Pan
Custom Cooler ducting and braided lines
79 American Racing Cast Alloy rims
Monroe Air, Rear Reece Hitch, Front Hidden Reece Hitch,Dual Batts, re-con’d Alt, Front Bench Seat
My rig is ubber hot, my FSJ is a chick magnet
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  #318  
Old 09-26-2012, 11:10 PM
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Yagan Yagan is offline
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Hey Resbum - this is what i was trying to post..

1. I love your deisel build. What an inspiration!
2. I love the brief rundown on US automotive history and turbo/ diesel engine constraining by departmental regulation.

Here in Aus we have been lucky. We have been able to obtain all the models you speak of and more in turbo diesel. Now the market here is at an advanced stage for TD engines. DOHC 4 Valve/ cyl heads, high pressure CRD, VGT’s and intercooling is now just par for the course

My 010 D90 has all of that crammed into the remainder of its archaic design. A small displacement Ford diesel. It is truly a miraculous engine and along with the six speed box - the highlight of the car!

Velocity- It's the product of heat and volume. Not exactly. Indirectly - definitetly.

With higher temps you have higher operating pressures in your system correct? Are you expecting this to increase velocity?
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Baby Blue - 81 Cherokee S 4 dr
Twin Trans Coolers no longer in radiator flow path
Baked Copper Coated B&M Deep Trans Pan
Custom Cooler ducting and braided lines
79 American Racing Cast Alloy rims
Monroe Air, Rear Reece Hitch, Front Hidden Reece Hitch,Dual Batts, re-con’d Alt, Front Bench Seat
My rig is ubber hot, my FSJ is a chick magnet
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  #319  
Old 09-27-2012, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagan
that'll teach me for cut and pasting from my email software to try to act like I can spell properly!
You're not alone. I've had to redo many posts because of the dreaded "Font" scripts.
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"What year is my truck?... Which part?" Build thread- http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/view...p=18290#p18290

Last edited by Resbum : 09-27-2012 at 05:24 PM.
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  #320  
Old 09-27-2012, 08:19 AM
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Resbum Resbum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagan
Hey Resbum...

...Here in Aus we have been lucky. We have been able to obtain all the models you speak of and more in turbo diesel...
...is now just par for the course

My 010 D90...

Velocity- It's the product of heat and volume. Not exactly. Indirectly - definitetly.


With higher temps you have higher operating pressures in your system correct? Are you expecting this to increase velocity?
Hi Yagan. Thanks.

I've had several opportunities to visit your country. I'm jealous of some of the things you guys get that we don't.

Yeah, I know I offered a very simplistic definition of velocity. For the sake of everyone reading I try to keep my already long-winded posts as short as possible.

I don't expect any increase in velocity. Everything I've done has been to hopefully mitigate any loses through the extra 14" of plumbing the turbo relocator adds to the exhaust path before reaching the turbo.

Hoping for the best. Resbum
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Last edited by Resbum : 09-27-2012 at 05:53 PM.
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