International Full Size Jeep Association
Home Forums Reader's Rigs Tech Library Trail Stories FSJ-List
International Full Size Jeep Association  

Go Back   International Full Size Jeep Association > Tech Archives > Engine

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 02-11-2009, 02:05 PM
Jayrodoh's Avatar
Jayrodoh Jayrodoh is offline
FSJ Maniac
 
Join Date: Sep 07, 2004
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 3,221
I'm going to disagree with Shackwrrr as well, according to Edelbrock, the front port is PCV and the rear is brake booster. I know from my install that the vac was much stronger on the rear port than on the front and would cause the engine to die if not connected.
__________________
Honey?? What happened to the savings account? You bought a Jeep what??

86 Grand Wag Stock with Bulltear HEI
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-11-2009, 02:13 PM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,027
for power brake and pcv i'd use the fittings that go on the manifold,as the factory uses,which the edelbrock intake has provisions for.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...

Last edited by Ristow : 02-11-2009 at 02:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-11-2009, 02:14 PM
shiner2001's Avatar
shiner2001 shiner2001 is offline
Master Mechanic
 
Join Date: Feb 19, 2008
Location: Buffalo Gap, TX
Posts: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by smearig
My vacuum setup is very limited because I have hydroboost brakes and the 208 transfer case. I think I even have the ball disconnected right now because I can't figure out why I'd even need it. I have a PCV and the vacuum going to the HEI and that's it for now. Give me a call if you're going to be in the area, I'm always down for showing off the Jeep.

I thought I had it saved, but PM me your number again and I'll give you a shout if it looks like I'll have some extra time when I'm through there.
__________________
Derek
----------------
1973 Wagoneer 360
1978 Cherokee 360
1981 J10 360

----------------
1964 El Camino 357
1972 C10 454 LS6
1979 Corvette L82
1979 Scout II 345
1988 YJ 4.2L
1991 YJ 4.3L
1990 Suburban V2500 350
1998 Mark VIII 4.6L
2001 Yukon 5.3L

----------------
"If it's not broken, fix it 'till it is."
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-11-2009, 03:07 PM
Lindel's Avatar
Lindel Lindel is offline
Perfesser of Jeepology
 
Join Date: Jun 15, 2000
Location: Carpentersville, IL 60110
Posts: 9,204
I used the intake port, just like stock for the brakes. IIRC I used the rear port for the PCV.
__________________
Jeep Grounds
RRV Homepage
Texas Full Size Jeep Association
1987 Grand Wagoneer
AMC 360/TF727/NP229
1999 Wrangler Sport
4.0L/AX-15/NV231


Quote:
“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction” by Ronald Reagan.


Formerly of DFW/Gun Barrel City, TX - eventually to return...
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-11-2009, 04:18 PM
shackwrrr's Avatar
shackwrrr shackwrrr is offline
FSJ Maniac
 
Join Date: Mar 04, 2006
Location: Lima,Ohio/Piedmont, Ohio
Posts: 3,145
Im not saying that my way is best. Its just the way I did it because I didnt have any fittings on hand and was the easiest way at the time. If I were to re do it I would hook everything to the manifold except the dizzy
__________________
Jeepless

In to Turbo crap now
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 02-11-2009, 07:00 PM
shiner2001's Avatar
shiner2001 shiner2001 is offline
Master Mechanic
 
Join Date: Feb 19, 2008
Location: Buffalo Gap, TX
Posts: 788
This week away from home is killing me. I am ready to get back to the Jeep and get all this hooked up. I REALLY appreciate everyone's insight, the more I see and read about it, the more it all kind of comes together, and hopefully someone else will be able to pull this up sometime and get as much out of it as I have.

As for now...it's hurry up and wait...
__________________
Derek
----------------
1973 Wagoneer 360
1978 Cherokee 360
1981 J10 360

----------------
1964 El Camino 357
1972 C10 454 LS6
1979 Corvette L82
1979 Scout II 345
1988 YJ 4.2L
1991 YJ 4.3L
1990 Suburban V2500 350
1998 Mark VIII 4.6L
2001 Yukon 5.3L

----------------
"If it's not broken, fix it 'till it is."
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-20-2009, 01:30 AM
shaolinsifu shaolinsifu is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 21, 2008
Location: florida
Posts: 239
Derek,
what kit did you buy for the throttle linkage to hook up, I had to "borrow" the ball stud from my son's project f150 to install the throttle cable,but I had to rig the return spring...
__________________
85 Grand Wag:360 *219k* 4bl 1406, tfi upgrade, rear 3" blocks,front(get this) "rear"shackle drop kit (net 5" lift) , 265.70.16 bfg at's,flomaster40,boobie grille swap
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-20-2009, 02:30 AM
Stumblinman's Avatar
Stumblinman Stumblinman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 04, 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 168
Whoa. You have to go to Edelbrock.com and check out their tech pages.
http://edelbrock.com/automotive_new/.../1000/1406.pdf
The rear is for the vacuum for the brakes. The carb (if new) should have come with a hookup for it and a plug. Don't use the driver's side vacuum for the distributor. Use the passenger side one. It's timed. That means when you are at idle you have no vacuum advance (which is what you want) If you don't think so then try hooking it up to both and you'll see a noticable difference. You could use the manifold vacuum but it really cleans things up when you go with a central place everything is hooked up to. I cannot help with any emissions vacuum though.
__________________
It's not the leaks that bother me, it's when they stop that makes me worried.

1988 Waggy SOA stretched, cut, Chevy R. 4" springs in front, shackle reversed, stock springs reversed in back, Edelbrock manifold and carb, mini-spooled front, lunchbox rear, currently on spaced 35s.
www.FairbanksOffroadLions.com
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:02 AM
Lindel's Avatar
Lindel Lindel is offline
Perfesser of Jeepology
 
Join Date: Jun 15, 2000
Location: Carpentersville, IL 60110
Posts: 9,204
Both the ports that are labeled for PCV and brake go to the same place, manifold vacuum. It won't make any difference which you hook up to where. The carb won't know and neither will the PCV or brake booster.
__________________
Jeep Grounds
RRV Homepage
Texas Full Size Jeep Association
1987 Grand Wagoneer
AMC 360/TF727/NP229
1999 Wrangler Sport
4.0L/AX-15/NV231


Quote:
“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction” by Ronald Reagan.


Formerly of DFW/Gun Barrel City, TX - eventually to return...
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-20-2009, 08:21 AM
smearig's Avatar
smearig smearig is offline
Grease Monkey
 
Join Date: Dec 20, 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumblinman
Whoa. You have to go to Edelbrock.com and check out their tech pages.
http://edelbrock.com/automotive_new/.../1000/1406.pdf
The rear is for the vacuum for the brakes. The carb (if new) should have come with a hookup for it and a plug. Don't use the driver's side vacuum for the distributor. Use the passenger side one. It's timed. That means when you are at idle you have no vacuum advance (which is what you want) If you don't think so then try hooking it up to both and you'll see a noticable difference. You could use the manifold vacuum but it really cleans things up when you go with a central place everything is hooked up to. I cannot help with any emissions vacuum though.

The manual for the HEI says to use non-ported vacuum. The big port on the front is for the PCV and the rear is for power brakes. I have mine hooked up like this and it runs great.
__________________
1983 WT Cherokee
2003 Ram 2500
2003 Bandit 1200s
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 02-20-2009, 04:35 PM
Stumblinman's Avatar
Stumblinman Stumblinman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 04, 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by smearig
The manual for the HEI says to use non-ported vacuum. The big port on the front is for the PCV and the rear is for power brakes. I have mine hooked up like this and it runs great.

The small port on the left is not ported. It is timed. Meaning you have no vacuum when you are at idle. It kicks in later when you need it. If you need active vacuum advance when you are at idle then you need to relook your timing.
__________________
It's not the leaks that bother me, it's when they stop that makes me worried.

1988 Waggy SOA stretched, cut, Chevy R. 4" springs in front, shackle reversed, stock springs reversed in back, Edelbrock manifold and carb, mini-spooled front, lunchbox rear, currently on spaced 35s.
www.FairbanksOffroadLions.com
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-20-2009, 09:52 PM
Chris P.'s Avatar
Chris P. Chris P. is offline
Master Mechanic
 
Join Date: Oct 12, 2003
Location: Mt. Solon, Virginia
Posts: 1,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumblinman
The small port on the left is not ported. It is timed. Meaning you have no vacuum when you are at idle


Which is also called ported vacuum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumblinman
It kicks in later when you need it. If you need active vacuum advance when you are at idle then you need to relook your timing.

Many of us here run straight manifold vac to the dizzy. Once the throttle plates are past the ported vacuum venturi, there is no difference between ported and manifold vac. Running manifold vac to the dizzy will result in better throttle response and cooler and smoother idling.
__________________
79 J10 Honcho 360/T-18/D20
Summit 8600 cam, GM TBI
78 Wagoneer 360/TH400/QT

Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-21-2009, 04:29 AM
Stumblinman's Avatar
Stumblinman Stumblinman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 04, 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 168
OK sorry I don't know what I was thinking. Yes ported = timed.
I've heard a lot of different people with different theoris about ported or manifold to the distributor. As far as fact goes... The thermal CTO (the thing with the 3 prongs on it) is there to move from ported to manifold. The sole reason to change which vacuum goes to the distributor was to help cool the engine. The engineers decided that to cool a hot engine they should increase the rpm to increase coolant flow and air flow from the fan. So under normal idle there would be no vacuum advance (ported) and if the engine would heat up to whatever level the CTO is set at then it would switch to manifold vacuum which would increase RPM to try to cool the engine down. I've found these an engines from the '70s and '80s. So going by this running straight off the manifold will not give you a cooler running engine unless you keep the idle RPM at a higher rate than normal. And by setting the timing (without vacuum hooked up) and then hooking straight to the manifold and decreasing the idle RPM to a standard number it seems you would actually be counteracting the vacuum advance. The ported vacuum only kicks on when you open the throttle which increases the RPM and is the time you would actually want a timing advance. And I think if I was running a drag race I would want straight manifold vacuum because I would only run at WOT.

OK where did I go wrong with this one ?
__________________
It's not the leaks that bother me, it's when they stop that makes me worried.

1988 Waggy SOA stretched, cut, Chevy R. 4" springs in front, shackle reversed, stock springs reversed in back, Edelbrock manifold and carb, mini-spooled front, lunchbox rear, currently on spaced 35s.
www.FairbanksOffroadLions.com
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-21-2009, 07:38 AM
Ristow Ristow is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 20, 2006
Location: The Great Googley Moogley Midwest.
Posts: 17,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumblinman
OK sorry I don't know what I was thinking. Yes ported = timed.
I've heard a lot of different people with different theoris about ported or manifold to the distributor. As far as fact goes... The thermal CTO (the thing with the 3 prongs on it) is there to move from ported to manifold. The sole reason to change which vacuum goes to the distributor was to help cool the engine. The engineers decided that to cool a hot engine they should increase the rpm to increase coolant flow and air flow from the fan. So under normal idle there would be no vacuum advance (ported) and if the engine would heat up to whatever level the CTO is set at then it would switch to manifold vacuum which would increase RPM to try to cool the engine down. I've found these an engines from the '70s and '80s. So going by this running straight off the manifold will not give you a cooler running engine unless you keep the idle RPM at a higher rate than normal. And by setting the timing (without vacuum hooked up) and then hooking straight to the manifold and decreasing the idle RPM to a standard number it seems you would actually be counteracting the vacuum advance. The ported vacuum only kicks on when you open the throttle which increases the RPM and is the time you would actually want a timing advance. And I think if I was running a drag race I would want straight manifold vacuum because I would only run at WOT.

OK where did I go wrong with this one ?



ported vacuum to the distributor is an emissions move. it works by RAISING combustion temps at idle by RETARDING ignition at idle.

switching to manifold vacuum will noticably raise your idle speed with no other adjustments-because the engine is idling more efficiently. it will also idle COOLER-due to LOWER combustion temps.

that is why the engine will cool down when switched from ported to manifold by the cto.

lean charges take longer to burn than rich charges. idle/cruising charges are lean. acceleration/heavy throttle are rich. the vacuum advance adjusts for that. running the vacuum advance on manifold vacuum gives the engine the needed advance at idle it needs.it will be noticably more responsive on the throttle.

if i were running a race engine i wouldn't use a vacuum advance at all.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrod
Ristows right.................again,




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
... like the little 'you know what's' that you are.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasts79Chief
I LOVE how Ristow has stolen my comment about him ... "Quoted" it ... and made himself famous for being an ***hole to people. Hahahahahahahahahha!


→ Where the kids hang out...

fsjbuilder.org come for the mindless chat,stay for the hand drawn emoticons.

It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting...and knitting...and knitting...and knitting...
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-21-2009, 04:05 PM
tgreening tgreening is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Jan 06, 2008
Location: Canton, OH
Posts: 437
One thing I had to do on my waggy when I used that carb was to use a really thick carb spacer, about an inch thick I think. Without it I had been getting pretty bad stumbling issues from the carb getting too hot and fuel boiling out. I can't pull the proper description out of my brain right now but I know someone out there will have it at the ready. Other than that it ran great and believe it or not I was pulling about 14.5 mpg on the highway on a 360 turning 33s with 3.31 gears.
__________________
83-ish V8 CJ/7 SOA 37" MTR
79 CJ7 Q/T, 258, 31's
77 CJ5, V8, 33's
94 Cherokee, 31's
68 J-3000, 232, 3 on the tree (under the knife soon)
78 J10, 360, Q/T, auto. Sacrificial lamb.
78 J20, 360, Q/T auto. Future unknown.
75 J20, 360, Q/T, auto. Reprieved sacrifice.
73 J20, 232, D20, 3spd. Axle sacrifice

Last edited by tgreening : 02-21-2009 at 04:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-23-2009, 12:02 AM
shiner2001's Avatar
shiner2001 shiner2001 is offline
Master Mechanic
 
Join Date: Feb 19, 2008
Location: Buffalo Gap, TX
Posts: 788
All great info about the ported and manifold vacs. I have been away from my computer for several days, so it's nice to catch up.

Tgreening, were you using the 3731 intake manifold as well? Anyone else have that fuel boiling problem?
__________________
Derek
----------------
1973 Wagoneer 360
1978 Cherokee 360
1981 J10 360

----------------
1964 El Camino 357
1972 C10 454 LS6
1979 Corvette L82
1979 Scout II 345
1988 YJ 4.2L
1991 YJ 4.3L
1990 Suburban V2500 350
1998 Mark VIII 4.6L
2001 Yukon 5.3L

----------------
"If it's not broken, fix it 'till it is."
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-23-2009, 02:52 AM
Stumblinman's Avatar
Stumblinman Stumblinman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 04, 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 168
Ok here I go again.
I've seen the problem on them and even a high rise Offenhauser intake. It has been remedied by a simple square bore riser. (the one with 4 holes)
__________________
It's not the leaks that bother me, it's when they stop that makes me worried.

1988 Waggy SOA stretched, cut, Chevy R. 4" springs in front, shackle reversed, stock springs reversed in back, Edelbrock manifold and carb, mini-spooled front, lunchbox rear, currently on spaced 35s.
www.FairbanksOffroadLions.com
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 02-23-2009, 05:50 AM
Lindel's Avatar
Lindel Lindel is offline
Perfesser of Jeepology
 
Join Date: Jun 15, 2000
Location: Carpentersville, IL 60110
Posts: 9,204
Blocking the exhaust riser will help too. A set of real intake gaskets (Mr. Gasket makes them) will cover the offending holes in the heads and block off a LOT of heat going in the vicinity of the carb.

That, and an insulating (phenolic) carb spacer will go a long way to solving vapor lock, even back home...
__________________
Jeep Grounds
RRV Homepage
Texas Full Size Jeep Association
1987 Grand Wagoneer
AMC 360/TF727/NP229
1999 Wrangler Sport
4.0L/AX-15/NV231


Quote:
“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction” by Ronald Reagan.


Formerly of DFW/Gun Barrel City, TX - eventually to return...
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 02-23-2009, 09:38 AM
tgreening tgreening is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Jan 06, 2008
Location: Canton, OH
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiner2001
All great info about the ported and manifold vacs. I have been away from my computer for several days, so it's nice to catch up.

Tgreening, were you using the 3731 intake manifold as well? Anyone else have that fuel boiling problem?

Not sure about the manifold part number but it was a edlebrock performer. Pretty run of the mill. The spacer was a phenolic spacer I picked up at summit racing and it solved the problem. The first spacer I tried was about 1/4-3/8" thick and it didnt do the trick at all. The second one was about 1" and the problem went away. I ended up changing that carb out because of its off-road reputation (or lack thereof I guess) and put on a holley truck avenger because of its good off-road rep. Of course I ended up yanking THAT after my fuel mileage dropped about 3.5mpg and put on howell efi. I figure I might have been able to tune away that fuel loss, or at least some of it, but then I remembered that was what I was trying to get away from, fiddling with carbs.

I always get there in the end but I never claimed to do it the smart way.
__________________
83-ish V8 CJ/7 SOA 37" MTR
79 CJ7 Q/T, 258, 31's
77 CJ5, V8, 33's
94 Cherokee, 31's
68 J-3000, 232, 3 on the tree (under the knife soon)
78 J10, 360, Q/T, auto. Sacrificial lamb.
78 J20, 360, Q/T auto. Future unknown.
75 J20, 360, Q/T, auto. Reprieved sacrifice.
73 J20, 232, D20, 3spd. Axle sacrifice

Last edited by tgreening : 02-23-2009 at 09:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 03-05-2009, 12:51 AM
shiner2001's Avatar
shiner2001 shiner2001 is offline
Master Mechanic
 
Join Date: Feb 19, 2008
Location: Buffalo Gap, TX
Posts: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaolinsifu
Derek,
what kit did you buy for the throttle linkage to hook up, I had to "borrow" the ball stud from my son's project f150 to install the throttle cable,but I had to rig the return spring...

I was going back through and rereading this thread and realized that I missed this post when it was put up. I didn't buy anything additional for the linkage (yet). The new carb came with what I needed to hook it up. The only thing I may end up having to do is either get the Lokar trans kickdown or just fab something to work.

Sorry about missing the question shaolinsifu...my bad!
__________________
Derek
----------------
1973 Wagoneer 360
1978 Cherokee 360
1981 J10 360

----------------
1964 El Camino 357
1972 C10 454 LS6
1979 Corvette L82
1979 Scout II 345
1988 YJ 4.2L
1991 YJ 4.3L
1990 Suburban V2500 350
1998 Mark VIII 4.6L
2001 Yukon 5.3L

----------------
"If it's not broken, fix it 'till it is."
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
corner corner