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  #1  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:20 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Oil filter warning/question

I've been having some trouble with dry startups in my '91 GW for the 2 years that I've had it.

I always put it down to the state of the engine itself, but now it has carried on doing it even after a complete engine rebuild.
My 360 has the metric filter fitting, so this whole time I have been using Wix 51626 filters (probably about 6+ of them in that time).

A few days ago I switched over to an old Mopar 05012968AA that I had lying around and now the problem seems to be totally gone.
It now builds pressure instantly with no noise at all, even when cold. The pressure stays higher for much longer too.

I know that Babywag has reported similar issues (http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=184610) so I wanted to confirm that I've experienced the same.


Unfortunately, the Mopar 05012968AA that I'm now using hasn't been made in a long time so I need to find something else to use.
What metric filters have you all had luck with?
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  #2  
Old 06-11-2019, 06:07 PM
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Switch to the 3/4”x16 oil filter stud, and run the same filter you do on your 4.0L

I got tired of limited choices on the metric filters. Went to the 3/4”x16 and I can get them off the shelf anywhere — at truck stops, rural convenience stores, Home Depot, any GM/Ford/Mopar dealership, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Chrys.../dp/B007NQA6KI
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:47 PM
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Are you ting me?! The Wix 51626 is all I've been using in mine. I thought it was supposed to be a better filter. Better than Fram anyways.


I have noticed that too though. Before the Wix, (i dont remember what it had) the guage would show pressure while cranking. With it, no pressure until the engine has turned over for a few seconds or when it starts up. (sometimes the wag sits for a week or so, so it takes longer crank time to refill the carb's bowl)

I just thought that was normal/ok as my engine doesn't make odd sounds durring start up or durring regular operation. It also has good cold and "normal" temp oil pressure. Now at high temps after a trip on the freeway, well after this latest oil/filter change i've been getting scary low pressure when I come to a stop at idle speed. The guage has been showing single digits... Still no odd sounds... Maybe the 10W30 Quaker State hm oil just gets that thin... idk. Dont like it though, the Jeep's only got 107K miles on it. It's still too young for needing a rebuild.
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1990 Grand Wagoneer-"The Crapwagon"
AMC 360, TF727, NP229, 3.31gears, 2" lift
Rancho 44044, Rusty's 2" AAL, TFI
...still kinda rusty

The other's
1926 Dodge Brothers 5 pass. Business Sedan 212-I4, 3 speed, CRANK START (new long term project)
1987 Lincoln Town Car "Signature Series" 5.0, AOD unknown gears
1987 Dodge Dakota LE 3.9,A999TF,3.90gears(DD)
1994 GMC 'Burban L05-5.7,4L60E,3.73gears(DD)
2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0,AW4,3.73gears(thinkin of selling)
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:51 PM
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ZackN920 ZackN920 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acct21
Switch to the 3/4”x16 oil filter stud, and run the same filter you do on your 4.0L
People round here don't like Fram, and to be honest... that's what I run on my 4.0




Never had a problem... so far.
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1990 Grand Wagoneer-"The Crapwagon"
AMC 360, TF727, NP229, 3.31gears, 2" lift
Rancho 44044, Rusty's 2" AAL, TFI
...still kinda rusty

The other's
1926 Dodge Brothers 5 pass. Business Sedan 212-I4, 3 speed, CRANK START (new long term project)
1987 Lincoln Town Car "Signature Series" 5.0, AOD unknown gears
1987 Dodge Dakota LE 3.9,A999TF,3.90gears(DD)
1994 GMC 'Burban L05-5.7,4L60E,3.73gears(DD)
2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0,AW4,3.73gears(thinkin of selling)
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  #5  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:26 PM
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But you don’t have to...

I think I’ve got the Mobil 1 204 on mine now — last one before that was a Motorcraft FL-300.

I’ve run the Wix 51068 for years without any issues on startup. Now I
just grab whatever decent filter is part of the oil change special...
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  #6  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:16 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Thanks guys. I have thought about moving to the 3/4”x16 stud. In the mean time I'm going to try to find a metric filter that works for me.
I'm in the UK so have to order any of these filters online anyway.

I've got a K&N HP-2007 on order which I'm going to try. I've watched a few dissection videos and they seem consistently well-made, plus I love the idea of the nut on the end to make it easier to remove.


With my 4.0s I've always used the Mopar 090 filters which have never caused any reason for concern.

Zack, those symptoms are very similar to mine, apart from that mine would make noise from the bottom end when starting up dry. At all other times the engine would behave normally, but I think my pressure generally stays a bit higher now the Wix is gone.
It's strange, Wix seemingly have a great reputation but this filter seems awful in this respect.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:46 AM
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Gordon (Gophman) is clunking around here somewhere. He's up near Edinburgh. He has the 3/4" x 16 stud on his '91 -- maybe he can update on filter availability for the 3/4" filters in the UK.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:47 AM
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The first 3/4" filter I ever ran on my '90 after I switched the stud over was an MO-090. Good filter from what I can recall. Certainly no oil pressure issues or dry starts.
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  #9  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:51 AM
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letank letank is offline
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I am running AC pf 46 (metric) and pf 24 for the standard on all riggs, interestingly, the 86 with the new dash and newer gauges electrical system registers pressure right away, albeit the older gauge on the 85 takes a while. On a older project with a mechanical gauge, while cranking the pressure goes up right away either with the starter or while hand priming the oil pump.


As for filter brands, the OEMs are generally much better made, for any manufacturer, Ford or Honda have more pleats when you take time to dismantle them.


The only time I ran a wix, after less than 50 miles I had a collapsed lifter, of course with near 200kmiles, it could have been a normal failure, but being the far away lifter, may not have been a coincidence after all
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  #10  
Old 06-12-2019, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acct21
Gordon (Gophman) is clunking around here somewhere. He's up near Edinburgh. He has the 3/4" x 16 stud on his '91 -- maybe he can update on filter availability for the 3/4" filters in the UK.
I've a few Wix 51085 filters in stock and a couple of slightly longer ones courtesy of Scott, never had an issue with startup pressure (usually shows pressure after a few seconds of turning over).
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  #11  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZackN920
People round here don't like Fram, and to be honest... that's what I run on my 4.0




Never had a problem... so far.

Same here (87 Cherokee and 84 Grand Wagoneer).
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  #12  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:59 PM
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rang-a-stang rang-a-stang is offline
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Here's what happened when I ran a Fram on my 401 (This was a double guard, too).
I was warned by folks not to run it but I never had any issues with Fram either so I ran it anyway. The second filter I ran was a Wix but I didn't get any pictures. When I opened the Wix, the filter media was thicker, the end caps were metal (instead of card board), the case was thicker, and it was generally a much better filter (I don't recall what part number). I was never a Fram hater until this happened. I searched around over on theamcforum.com and most folks there (and some on here, like S/C397) run Baldwin B9s. I picked a couple up at my local Grainger for, I think, about $7. This episode ABSOLUTELY changed my mind on Fram. There are some other independent reviews on youtube you should watch, too.

Looking down the throat:


Then I opened it up:

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  #13  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:38 PM
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67GMC 67GMC is offline
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Not sure.
To me, the only test that matters is that it keeps the oil clean and debris out of engine. Not sure what it's supposed to look like after 5000 miles of oil through it and cut open after. That's the problem with all the anti-fram videos. I haven't seen one that actually tests what the filter is removing. That's what the filter is designed for. If it meets the specifications, that's all that matters as far as a filter goes.
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My Stable:
1987 Jeep Cherokee Laredo, 4.0L, 4X4, Auto
1984 Jeep Grand Wagoneer, 5.9L, 4x4, Auto (newest project)

2007 Pontiac G5, 2.2L, Auto
2006 Toyota Sienna, 3.3L, Auto
2013 Toyota Matrix, 1.8L, Auto

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  #14  
Old 06-15-2019, 04:17 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Ouch, Rang-a-stang, that looks awful. I wasn't comfortable running something with cardboard endcaps for exactly that reason.


I can report that my Mopar filter is still giving me none of the problems the Wix gave me. I just started the GW up after sitting for 6 days. It started first turn of the key, built pressure immediately, and had no noise whatsoever.
The Wix would knock on startup after just sitting an hour or more.

I've now got a K&N filter that I will try next oil change.


I'm still thinking about the stud change and running a Mopar MO-090, but that will depend on how well I get on with the K&N.
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  #15  
Old 06-15-2019, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynjminjones
The Wix would knock on startup after just sitting an hour or more.

That has been my experience with Wix as well, they weren't always like that.
They changed something in design/manufacture and they're no longer good IMHO.

Had the same issue using a Wix on the wife's '09 Charger.
Don't run one on that engine any longer either.
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  #16  
Old 06-16-2019, 08:26 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babywag
That has been my experience with Wix as well, they weren't always like that.
They changed something in design/manufacture and they're no longer good IMHO.

It was actually your thread on here that lead me to suspect the oil filter in the first place. If I hadn't read that, I don't think it would have crossed my mind.
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  #17  
Old 06-16-2019, 11:46 PM
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Keep in mind Jeep changed filters in 1988. Post-1988 engines use the Wix 51058, also called the NAPA Gold 1085.

I've bought and sold dozens if not hundreds of 1085's over the years and not one has failed to perform properly to my knowledge.

However, nearly every single pe-1988 51258/1258 I've bought or sold had a pinched anti-drain-back valve that did not seal and caused a delay in oil pressure when the engine was started.
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  #18  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:41 PM
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ZackN920 ZackN920 is offline
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Well this sucks, I still have 3 or 4 of these filters new on shelf. Too many choices out there as well, I don't know what to get.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynjminjones
I know that Babywag has reported similar issues (http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=184610)
When you first posted this, I never looked at this linked thread...
I totally forgot about that thread! Still don't think I got much from it though, I don't think there are any part #'s for other (metric) filters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by acct21
But you don’t have to...

I think I’ve got the Mobil 1 204 on mine now — last one before that was a Motorcraft FL-300.

I’ve run the Wix 51068 for years without any issues on startup. Now I
just grab whatever decent filter is part of the oil change special...
What are we talking about here though? Another 4.0 I6 or AMC V8? I dont use Fram on the AMC V8 but on the 4.0, its just too easy to go to walmart and get what I know (HM16) right off the shelf for under $4! I don't know off hand what other filter part #'s will work
When it comes to my (metric) filtered 360, there is nothing local other than the autoparts stores that price gouge.

According to Rockauto, FL-306 is what my 360 would use for a motorcraft, what do y'all think of them? It's cheaper than Wix.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynjminjones
Thanks guys. I have thought about moving to the 3/4”x16 stud. In the mean time I'm going to try to find a metric filter that works for me.
I'm in the UK so have to order any of these filters online anyway.

I've got a K&N HP-2007 on order which I'm going to try. I've watched a few dissection videos and they seem consistently well-made, plus I love the idea of the nut on the end to make it easier to remove.


With my 4.0s I've always used the Mopar 090 filters which have never caused any reason for concern.

Zack, those symptoms are very similar to mine, apart from that mine would make noise from the bottom end when starting up dry. At all other times the engine would behave normally, but I think my pressure generally stays a bit higher now the Wix is gone.
It's strange, Wix seemingly have a great reputation but this filter seems awful in this respect.
Almost forced to go online here too, unless you want to overpay for the metric filter

It's just this last oil/filter change too that I've noticed this. (other than taking a short time to build pressure at start) It used to behave normally all the time, now pressure is really fluctuating depending on temperature. I should probably hook an actual gauge up to see what the engine is really doing at the "high temp"/long sustained speed/coming to a stop after lss- conditions. I really don't want to put another hole in the firewall though for an oil line
Still though-Absolutely no odd-out of the ordinary- noises in any of these experienced conditions.

Hey Brynjminjones, I read awhile back about you having some issues after replacing some bent/worn push rod's- something about oil not getting to the rockers anymore... Now I read you have since rebuilt the engine. What was the cause of your oiling problem and is that why you rebuilt it? How many miles (or kilometers) were on it when it needed it? Just curious. Maybe you've already posted, maybe not but I go on hiatus every so often so I don't see everything around here...


Quote:
Originally Posted by letank
I am running AC pf 46 (metric)
This isn't listed as replacement on RA. They list PF970C. Is that a larger version of what RA lists as replacement or something?


Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJunkie
Keep in mind Jeep changed filters in 1988. Post-1988 engines use the Wix 51058, also called the NAPA Gold 1085.

I've bought and sold dozens if not hundreds of 1085's over the years and not one has failed to perform properly to my knowledge.

However, nearly every single pe-1988 51258/1258 I've bought or sold had a pinched anti-drain-back valve that did not seal and caused a delay in oil pressure when the engine was started.
Why do all sources I find show 51626 as being the correct metric filter? I have seen you and others talk about that part # but never seen it recommended by the parts stores or online parts dealers for my 1990 AMC V8.
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1990 Grand Wagoneer-"The Crapwagon"
AMC 360, TF727, NP229, 3.31gears, 2" lift
Rancho 44044, Rusty's 2" AAL, TFI
...still kinda rusty

The other's
1926 Dodge Brothers 5 pass. Business Sedan 212-I4, 3 speed, CRANK START (new long term project)
1987 Lincoln Town Car "Signature Series" 5.0, AOD unknown gears
1987 Dodge Dakota LE 3.9,A999TF,3.90gears(DD)
1994 GMC 'Burban L05-5.7,4L60E,3.73gears(DD)
2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0,AW4,3.73gears(thinkin of selling)
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  #19  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:54 PM
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acct21 acct21 is offline
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by acct21
But you don’t have to...

I think I’ve got the Mobil 1 204 on mine now — last one before that was a Motorcraft FL-300.

I’ve run the Wix 51068 for years without any issues on startup. Now I
just grab whatever decent filter is part of the oil change special...
What are we talking about here though? Another 4.0 I6 or AMC V8? I dont use Fram on the AMC V8 but on the 4.0, its just too easy to go to walmart and get what I know (HM16) right off the shelf for under $4! I don't know off hand what other filter part #'s will work
When it comes to my (metric) filtered 360, there is nothing local other than the autoparts stores that price gouge.

According to Rockauto, FL-306 is what my 360 would use for a motorcraft, what do y'all think of them? It's cheaper than Wix.

I posted earlier in the thread that I've changed my original metric oil filter stud to the later 3/4" x 16 Chrysler SAE stud -- so I can use the same filters called for on the 4.0L.

I love the FL-300; it's a quality filter. So is the Mopar MO-090, and the AC Delco PF-13. Now those are all 3/4" x 16 thread filters, but work fine on my AMC 360 (since I converted it) and would work on most -- if not all -- 4.0L calling for that thread filter. They are essentially identical (in size) to the Fram HM16/PF16 you get at Walmart. Opinions on the quality of the Fram filters vary...

The lack of variety of quality metric filters is why I changed my stud to SAE. Now I don't have any problem whatsoever picking out a cheap, quality oil filter.
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  #20  
Old 06-20-2019, 02:24 AM
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Brynjminjones Brynjminjones is offline
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Zack, I'd definitely recommend trying another filter to see if it helps. My pressure is certainly more stable now with another one, although the dry startups were the only reason I changed it.
Let me know if you want help finding a suitable metric alternative - I've got lots of different brands/part numbers lined up!


You asked about my rocker oiling problem - ultimately, yes, that was the reason for the rebuild. We were originally going to just replace the cam, lifters, pushrods and rockers, as oil was getting to the lifters, just not up the pushrods.
We discovered though that the cam bearings were completely delaminated and were pretty much falling apart. On tearing the engine down, it turns out that every single bearing was pretty shot.
It had done ~114,000 miles. At least 10,000 of those were me, and in the time I've owned it the oil pressure never went to 0 and it never really did anything unusual.
It seems that cam bearings are a common cause of low hot oil pressure - I know that Gordon above (gophman) has just discovered that his are shot too.


Also to clarify on filters, I think there's a bit of confusion about oil filter threads for late model Grand Wagoneers.
To the best of my knowledge, pre-1988 used a 13/16"-16 thread (Wix #51258), which then switched to a metric 20x1.5mm thread (Wix #51626). It wasn't until about 1991 that they switched to 3/4"-16 thread (Wix #51085).
To add to the confusion, my Waggy with metric thread is actually a 1991.

Please correct me if this isn't correct!
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