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  #21  
Old 08-15-2016, 02:04 PM
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babywag babywag is offline
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Not too many choices for a late model SJ these days.
Hedman's are very lousy as well, way worse than Thorley's on the welding/ports.
I would never spend the $ on a new set of Thorley's though either.

You should have seen the ports on the CJ5 headers I bought. Just awful 1/4" off in several areas.
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  #22  
Old 08-15-2016, 03:08 PM
darylb darylb is offline
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I have a set of long tube headers that I pulled off of a J truck, don't know the maker. These look good, the flange doesn't interfere with the spark plugs and the ports are the same as the gasket including dog legs with a bit of room left for porting. The only "negative" is they are straight back on both sides, needing an H-pipe into duals or a very long custom Y-pipe. I can live with that negative.

babywag: My Thorleys dog leg doesn't even extend past the rectangular portion of a standard gasket on several cylinders. They would have been better off just going rectangular and trying to get as much port size as possible rather than giving us a phony dog leg look.
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  #23  
Old 08-15-2016, 03:28 PM
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OP has a late model...choices are limited for a new bolt on pair of headers.

Hedman cheapies $185
Hedman ceramics $450
Thorley's $625

Not aware of any others out there for a late model.

Having seen Hedman's ports/welding I sure wouldn't buy a $450 set.

I bought my Thorley's used and have far less then $185 in 'em.
The ports/welding aren't terrible, certainly better than Hedman's I've seen pictures of.
But, I would NEVER pay that much $ for a new pair of headers...no way no how.
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  #24  
Old 08-15-2016, 08:06 PM
ShagWagon ShagWagon is offline
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Glad you guys brought up the headers thing, I was just thinking I need to resolve the o2 sensor situation first before I can install a kit.


Upon doing some research here on the forums, it seems that everybody hates all brands of headers. Seems like for every person who likes a particular set there's 2 or more that have complaints lol.....


It just seems like the thing to do since I have to have a shop weld a bunghole and hope they know what they're doing and paying for it. I could use that money towards some new headers with a better sound and a few ponies more for a few dollars more if I could purchase a header with bunghole already pre installed if they come that way? I don't mind throwing some money towards better quality if it's worth it.

Would it be smart to use the edelbrock intake with an edelbrock headers because they are designed by the same company to work with each other?

How good are the stock headers? Starting to sound pretty good to me right now if it's less hassle to just have a muffler shop add a bunghole in. Would they have the part on hand at the shop? Or would I have to order it somewhere? I can probably get a stock 4bbl intake too if it works better.

How much better and cooler are the aftermarket headers in general compared to the stock ones I currently have?

Also are these headers obnoxious loud? I'm not going for that. Don't want to disrupt the whole forest athough I'd like something that still sounds cool good.

Any special tools required for header install? I'm not foreseeing anything but I've never done it before.
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  #25  
Old 08-15-2016, 08:30 PM
ShagWagon ShagWagon is offline
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Will cruise control hook up easily to these and still work right?


Gotta have cruise so I can catch more Pokemon when I drive down the HWY......
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  #26  
Old 08-16-2016, 10:05 AM
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A shop welding in an o2 sensor bung is like $25-$35 maybe a little more. (Depends on shop)
They also sell kits that don't require welding, you drill a big hole and sandwich the plate w/ o2 sensor bung onto exhaust pipe, and clamp it down. I believe the FiTech kit comes with one like this?

The stock exhaust manifolds work just fine, better than most stockers.

Edelbrock hasn't made the AMC headers in years, they are no longer available for purchase new.
You can always add aftermarket headers later. No special tools required.
However a new exhaust system should be installed to gain the most benefit from them.

A stock 4bbl intake would work, but I wouldn't waste the effort in installing another 75lb cast iron intake if I was pulling the stock 2bbl intake.
If you go used intake manifold just get an Edelbrock intake for ~$100-150.

Cruise will work just fine with whatever system you decide on, just need to reattach the cable/chain to throttle lever.
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  #27  
Old 08-17-2016, 06:19 PM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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ShagWagon...Have you considered building your own TBI system? Most of the people that have put together their own system have had good results. Well at least the ones that frequent this forum. Anyway, as you probably already know there are some good sites to learn about TBI installs such as:

Gearhead EFI:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...to-New-and-Old

Thirdgen:
http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/

Binder Planet: (BTW Bill USN-1 is Hamilton Injection)
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/i...ction-tech.75/

I have been running the same TBI system in my Wagoneer since 2005. What I liked about the system I put together was the ability to see what the heck was going on as I learned to tune. Check out this link for more info. http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_ScreenShots.php

I've listed a couple of questions you may want to consider when deciding which EFI you want to invest money in:

1. Does it have timing control? If not, you are spending money for half a system. Why do you think there is a sticky in this forum for adding timing control to a Howell system?

2. What additional equipment is needed to tune your system? Things like an EEPROM burner, EEPROM Emulator, Laptop, etc. add up quick.

2a. Even with mail order chip burning you will probably still need to provide feedback data to the vendor which means a computer and a data cable.

3. What capabilities exist to troubleshoot your system? A check engine light means nothing if you cannot access the data that triggers it.

4. What engine mods are needed to install the EFI. Babywag already covered this one.

5. What are your expectations and reasons for wanting EFI? EFI will not fix an engine that has a mechanical problem (ex. bad rings or cam) and will not give give gobs of power or economy over a properly tuned carb. It will however give easier starts and more consistent performance.

6. What EFI system would the people on this forum that have successfully built and tuned TBI vehicles use? For me it would be a home-built TBI with timing control and a Wideband O2 gauge to check my work as I drive.

Good luck on whatever you decide.
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  #28  
Old 08-18-2016, 12:09 AM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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If you would like specifics, simply call me.
360 969-2925
As Babywag mentioned:
My systems are complete fuel and ignition upgrades.
The only thing you provide is fuel lines.
I run what I sell.
Cheaper may not really be cheaper once your done with the install.
My kits come with the data cable and the software.
The system will autotune but I always include custom tuning for every system so the it doesn't have to adjust until conditions require it like driving to 14,000ft in CO.
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  #29  
Old 08-18-2016, 08:35 AM
ShagWagon ShagWagon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill USN-1
If you would like specifics, simply call me.
360 969-2925
As Babywag mentioned:
My systems are complete fuel and ignition upgrades.
The only thing you provide is fuel lines.
I run what I sell.
Cheaper may not really be cheaper once your done with the install.
My kits come with the data cable and the software.
The system will autotune but I always include custom tuning for every system so the it doesn't have to adjust until conditions require it like driving to 14,000ft in CO.

Appreciate you chiming in as I did consider your system but I did a search on this and another FSJ forums and foogle for Hamilton. Don't take this wrong please take it as constructive criticism for improvement by a possible consumer who seriously considered buying your product.

Nothing came up when I searched for titles with keyword Hamilton except your post for some throttle body adapters for a lot of other cars. Couldn't find anything or anyone who installed it on their jeeps here or there. I can't go by your own forums for non-bias because it can be manipulated by vested interest and gustapoed out anything negative.

The only thing that pops up on a Google search are people who have problems with Hamilton products and what they had to do to fix it.

Then the kicker for me is throwing out $1400 for an as-is,no warranty, no garantee product, no returns, no exceptions as stated by disclaimer just before you click buy it now.

Don't take it wrong I'm not saying it doesn't work, and that you don't make something well and stand by your product, and that you wouldn't give good customer service and support.

But some kind of warranty should be in order for me to buy something for that kind of coin.
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Last edited by ShagWagon : 08-18-2016 at 08:40 AM.
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  #30  
Old 08-18-2016, 09:13 AM
ShagWagon ShagWagon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodchomper
ShagWagon...Have you considered building your own TBI system? Most of the people that have put together their own system have had good results. Well at least the ones that frequent this forum. Anyway, as you probably already know there are some good sites to learn about TBI installs such as:

Gearhead EFI:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...to-New-and-Old

Thirdgen:
http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/

Binder Planet: (BTW Bill USN-1 is Hamilton Injection)
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/i...ction-tech.75/

I have been running the same TBI system in my Wagoneer since 2005. What I liked about the system I put together was the ability to see what the heck was going on as I learned to tune. Check out this link for more info. http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_ScreenShots.php

I've listed a couple of questions you may want to consider when deciding which EFI you want to invest money in:

1. Does it have timing control? If not, you are spending money for half a system. Why do you think there is a sticky in this forum for adding timing control to a Howell system?

2. What additional equipment is needed to tune your system? Things like an EEPROM burner, EEPROM Emulator, Laptop, etc. add up quick.

2a. Even with mail order chip burning you will probably still need to provide feedback data to the vendor which means a computer and a data cable.

3. What capabilities exist to troubleshoot your system? A check engine light means nothing if you cannot access the data that triggers it.

4. What engine mods are needed to install the EFI. Babywag already covered this one.

5. What are your expectations and reasons for wanting EFI? EFI will not fix an engine that has a mechanical problem (ex. bad rings or cam) and will not give give gobs of power or economy over a properly tuned carb. It will however give easier starts and more consistent performance.

6. What EFI system would the people on this forum that have successfully built and tuned TBI vehicles use? For me it would be a home-built TBI with timing control and a Wideband O2 gauge to check my work as I drive.

Good luck on whatever you decide.

I appreciate your long winded post.

I'm leaning towards the Fitech, edelbrock new manifold, and FCC setup. Gonna be $1700.

Only concern is the FCC being too loud/annoying and replacement if it goes south in the future. I suppose if it does I can replace it with something else.
I can go in tank pump but I spent a lot of time getting my fuel sender calibrated just right for my fuel gauge that I never want to open that hole ever again for a long time if I don't have to.

I think this Fitech setup does address all of your points unless I'm not getting it right.

1. Yes claims to have timing control. With the stock distributor.

2. $700 in extras but gives me a new 4bbl edelbrock manifold and a sump based fuel pump which seems best all-around. Improvements on both counts?

2a if I understand this, the Fitech learns as you drive and adjusts automatically for best performance by sniffing its own waste with a wide and o2 sensor and adjusting till it's clean. No programming needed just answer a few basic ? Before Initial startup like engine size, mods, wheels etc... It will sense driving habits and create its own personal tune based on driving habits and engine wear


3. Has handheld Fitech and ports for laptops etc.... And adjustments I don't even know how to make. Seems more than enough?

4. See #2

5. Yep easier starts and consistent performance. Don't like the dying on right turns, noxious smoke and fumes every start, super hi idle when cold, etc... Plus my throttle body spacer on carb is broken and carb needs rebuild and I don't know how to build a carb right. I've attempted about 5 times in my life and took it to a mechanic in a box every time.

6. Although seems the best option to save money and an opportunity to learn something new, I just don't want to get in to it that far.

Plus I cashed out at exactly $1700 for some weird reason at the casino the other night.


Thanks
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  #31  
Old 08-18-2016, 10:35 AM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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I like your thinking. The nice thing about the Fitech system is that the equipment is all new and not rebuilt or re-manufactured. When I looked on the Fitech site I couldn't find much info on the timing option. I was hoping to find a link with an install manual but didn't find it.

As you know there is no one right answer for the best aftermarket fuel injection system. What works for one person may not be the best for another person.

I personally would like to learn more about the Fitech offering and its capabilities. So, if you go this route please take plenty of pictures of your install and keep us posted on your progress.
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  #32  
Old 08-18-2016, 12:22 PM
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asudchiman asudchiman is offline
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This has been a great thread, and I have to admit...

I am still as confused as I was before as to what (if anything) I will do to mine, but I have definitely learned more about EFI.
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  #33  
Old 08-18-2016, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShagWagon
2a if I understand this, the Fitech learns as you drive and adjusts automatically for best performance by sniffing its own waste with a wide and o2 sensor and adjusting till it's clean. No programming needed just answer a few basic ? Before Initial startup like engine size, mods, wheels etc... It will sense driving habits and create its own personal tune based on driving habits and engine wear

Again ALL fuel injection systems are learning, self adjusting, whatever you wanna call it, isn't anything new.
The GM based TBI system I'm running on my '90 could be called "self tuning", but that wouldn't be a 100% truthful statement.
I could also say the '94 LT1 Caprice in my driveway is self tuning, or my wife's 2009 Dodge Charger.
They all learn and adjust "tune themselves" every time they are driven.

Fitech however does spin/market theirs as "self tuning". HUGE stretch of the truth.

No aftermarket system is "self tuning", every aftermarket FI system I have ever seen/read anything on needs tuning.
Whether it's with a laptop or punching things into a handheld controller it is still tuning.
The Fitech simplifies the process by creating a tune for you, but additional tuning will likely be required. Will it work yes, will it work better with tuning YES.

If it was truly a "self tuning" system you wouldn't have to do anything other than take it out of the box and install it.

The beauty of them is they are great for someone who doesn't want to "tune", yet they will likely need to anyway.

They look cool, and are pretty low cost honestly....
UNTIL you add on their extras.
Need a fuel system capable of 800HP no problem +$395.
Don't need 800HP fuel system, no problem buy the $245 system.
Want to add timing control, no problem, buy the more expensive model(s).
Want to be able to tune with laptop, "^^".

It's really too bad they don't sell the 400hp model w/ timing control and laptop tuning. Would be a real nice system IMHO.
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  #34  
Old 08-19-2016, 08:09 AM
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Woodchomper Woodchomper is offline
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Last night I did a google search on FiTech EFI and found a couple of installs. There was a 15 page install on a BuickV8 forum. As you can imagine the system was not without problems.

Here is what I think I know about the system:
1. Built in fan control - Good.
2. Uses WB02 for feedback - This is good.
3. Self-contained electronics baking on top of the intake manifold - Bad.
4. No Vehicle Speed Sensor input - Bad. The system will not know if you are idling in your driveway, going 65 down the highway, or slowing down as you approach a stop at a light.
5. No Park/Neutral wiring - Bad. This means no separate fueling controls for idling and driving.
6. The add-on fuel sump system is somewhat problematic. If you use this sump make sure to have a separate 12V supply feed to the sump. Use a relay triggered by the FiTech to power the sump.
7. Add-on timing controls - Questionable. My gut feel is that the timing maps are limited. You may be better off keeping your distributor.

The throttle body unit of this system looks real cool but I'm afraid the system itself still has some growing to do before it can be as good as what you could get from a GM TBI or Megasquirt system. I would love to get my hands on a cheap used Fitech 4 injector throttle body. If I did I would gut the electronics out of it and drive it with a modified GM ECM.

One last thing. A friend's father paid big bucks to install a MSD Atomic EFI on '65 Corvette. The system was so easy to install that the local speed shop did the work. Anyway, the Vette has stalling/rough running issues on deceleration and there is nothing the shop can do to fix it. The problem may eventually be fixable but it will have to be fixed by someone that actually knows what they are doing.
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  #35  
Old 08-19-2016, 10:01 AM
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babywag babywag is offline
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My thinking is pretty much the same, the ECU may fail it may be just a matter of time, but it's lifetime warranty on just ECU.
There are good reasons the OEM's have always mounted the ECU's away from the engine.

I have read that tuning with the handheld is somewhat limited compared to other systems that us DIY guys are used to.
The fuel/spark maps are only 3x3? using the handheld from what I have read.
I have yet to see anyone do a review or post about the software available for tuning on the higher priced models.
Pictures of the TB online, show GM parts for IAC/TPS...and documentation/ info online suggests all GM parts are used.
There are several thread about folks not being able to get certain things to run right.
Some of the issues may be resolved if access to more of the settings or software tuning was available on the lower priced models??

I would also LOVE to get just the throttle body, and control it with an 16197427, EBL or MS?
I think they're missing a sector of the market, and should produce a 150-300hp system w/ timing control & laptop tuning.
Not everyone has a need for a 400hp or 600hp capable system. Bigger is not better with a stockish engine.

*IF* I had money laying around to burn I'd buy a 400hp system to play with. Could use something added on for timing control EDIS & Microsquirt?

But topic drift...lol...

OP should buy what he wants. The FiTech is not a BAD system, it is pretty cool actually.
I think the marketing is misleading, and there are some limitations, but overall a very attractive system.
Both in terms of what it is, and the price point.
For a stockish GW the 400hp system would be quite nice IMHO. I think the 600hp system is pretty overkill.
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  #36  
Old 08-19-2016, 10:21 AM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShagWagon
Appreciate you chiming in as I did consider your system but I did a search on this and another FSJ forums and foogle for Hamilton. Don't take this wrong please take it as constructive criticism for improvement by a possible consumer who seriously considered buying your product.

Nothing came up when I searched for titles with keyword Hamilton except your post for some throttle body adapters for a lot of other cars. Couldn't find anything or anyone who installed it on their jeeps here or there. I can't go by your own forums for non-bias because it can be manipulated by vested interest and gustapoed out anything negative.

The only thing that pops up on a Google search are people who have problems with Hamilton products and what they had to do to fix it.

Then the kicker for me is throwing out $1400 for an as-is,no warranty, no garantee product, no returns, no exceptions as stated by disclaimer just before you click buy it now.

Don't take it wrong I'm not saying it doesn't work, and that you don't make something well and stand by your product, and that you wouldn't give good customer service and support.

But some kind of warranty should be in order for me to buy something for that kind of coin.
Thanks for the feedback.
Not sure where you found neg feedback on my systems but I will continue to look for it.
I have never refused nor failed to addressed any concern or issue with my systems that I am aware of. So if there is a complaint, they must not have called me as my number is listed on every pg of the manual.
I have never refused to refund or simply send a replacement part to any one no matter how long they have owned the system.
I am part of the community and my name and number is on the system so it needs to be right. I'm not a faceless corporation.
I do not pay for google advertisement so you won't find me at the top of any list.
I am a one man shop and I answer my phone when it rings and I spend several hours every day address questions from people that don't even run my system.
If I felt the modern systems were better than what I sell, I would switch.
I have the new 400hp fuel only system setting here, it's going back.
I thought about selling the new systems as a complete ready to bolt on system that is pretuned with timing control.
But as you are finding out, it would cost much more and still end up with an aftermarket system that you can't get replacement parts for locally if it breaks.
Most look at the initial cost and think the new systems are a great deal, But I haven't really seen any post that list final cost of everything they had they had to invest in the system to complete it.

Another thing to keep in mind, I have been providing free DIY information on several Jeep and IH sites and my name is the same on all. So when you search you have to know when it's DIY or an actual HFI kit.
There have been many on here that have used my DIY info to successfully add injection to their jeeps.
I provide assistance to all that ask no matter what system they use.
It's a community issue not a financial one.
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
75 scout XLC 345/727/JPD300/3.73's/33's/4wdisc/hydroboost/EFI/OBA/OBW
1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS
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  #37  
Old 08-19-2016, 01:59 PM
ShagWagon ShagWagon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill USN-1
Thanks for the feedback.
Not sure where you found neg feedback on my systems but I will continue to look for it.
I have never refused nor failed to addressed any concern or issue with my systems that I am aware of. So if there is a complaint, they must not have called me as my number is listed on every pg of the manual.
I have never refused to refund or simply send a replacement part to any one no matter how long they have owned the system.
I am part of the community and my name and number is on the system so it needs to be right. I'm not a faceless corporation.
I do not pay for google advertisement so you won't find me at the top of any list.
I am a one man shop and I answer my phone when it rings and I spend several hours every day address questions from people that don't even run my system.
If I felt the modern systems were better than what I sell, I would switch.
I have the new 400hp fuel only system setting here, it's going back.
I thought about selling the new systems as a complete ready to bolt on system that is pretuned with timing control.
But as you are finding out, it would cost much more and still end up with an aftermarket system that you can't get replacement parts for locally if it breaks.
Most look at the initial cost and think the new systems are a great deal, But I haven't really seen any post that list final cost of everything they had they had to invest in the system to complete it.

Another thing to keep in mind, I have been providing free DIY information on several Jeep and IH sites and my name is the same on all. So when you search you have to know when it's DIY or an actual HFI kit.
There have been many on here that have used my DIY info to successfully add injection to their jeeps.
I provide assistance to all that ask no matter what system they use.
It's a community issue not a financial one.

I hear ya. Keep up,the good work! You seem to be in it for all the right reasons.

I'm just trying to be helpful back even if it doesn't seem like it.

When I do a title search for Hamilton on FSJ forums nothing comes up where anyone has installed it. If anyone has a write up or something would be good for the cause.

I can't criticize your setup, and I'm not because I don't know enough to. But it was hard for me to buy for the leery because of before mentioned issues.

Be good!
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  #38  
Old 08-19-2016, 02:50 PM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,458
I'd venture a guess that the reason you find no threads is likely because few people have had problems with Bill's system.
I know there are people running them, I cannot recall ever seeing a complaint or problem posted about his stuff...

One guy posting youtube videos complaining isn't really a fair assessment.
But the fact that you find nothing, and only those videos does say something.
The first thing anyone does when they have a problem is let the intenet know.

Google FiTech problems, pretty new products/system...lots of hits.
Or Howell TBI problems, lots of hits. Many on this forum alone.

I have personally helped a LOT of guys with Howell system problems, and I would never recommend one to anyone.
It is too bad, because they're the only CA Smog legal system with an EO for a Jeep w/ amc 360.
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  #39  
Old 08-19-2016, 03:10 PM
Bill USN-1 Bill USN-1 is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Nov 11, 2006
Location: Oak Harbor, Wa
Posts: 360
You beat me to the punch.....
Your in the EFI forum so why would someone that is now driving and enjoying their FSJ be hanging out here or even looking here?

I can't provide personal information so I can't post a list of names.

But at this point it really isn't pertinent. You have made your decision so this is only for the next guy looking for facts when making his decision.
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Hamilton Fuel Injection
75 scout XLC 345/727/JPD300/3.73's/33's/4wdisc/hydroboost/EFI/OBA/OBW
1977 Innocenti 1001 (Italian Mini)EFI 1275/DIS
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  #40  
Old 08-20-2016, 11:13 AM
ShagWagon ShagWagon is offline
350 Buick
 
Join Date: Apr 10, 2016
Location: Oregon Coast
Posts: 851
I ordered the
Fitech 30002
Fuel command center
Edelbrock performer manifold
RTV grey
Manifold bolts
Manifold gasket
Valley gasket
Thermostat gasket
Distributor gasket
Throttle return spring kit

Ended up $1778 out the door.

Ordered from jegs. Called by phone to make sure all was in stock. Paid then next morning got an e-mail saying the FCC was back ordered and would ship out 9/30. That's like 6 weeks out! So I called and gave a few choice words about that, talked to the supervisor about why the salesman lied to me that it was all in stock before they took my money,and that was the whole point of me calling in was to make sure all was ready to go, then it was delayed 6 weeks after I paid for it.... He actually wanted to argue with me saying that HE didn't say that correcting me when I said you told me would ship out immediately.

I cancelled. Went with Summit racing. Same thing, same price, actually so same it seems they're the same company...?Except,summit told me beforehand FCC was delayed till 9/08 and they'd give me a discount if it was late. They also recommended RTV and the distributor gasket and manifold bolts that the jegs didn't. Don't know if I really need all that or if it's just cushioning their commission..

Hoping for the best..
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