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Old 07-22-2010, 10:39 AM
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caionneach caionneach is offline
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Question To change A/C refrigerant or no...(R134a & Freeze 12 ?)

My Honda mechanic friend helped with my A/C system a time or two, but recently advised that I get all new components eventually because my system is an R12 system and will never cool as efficiently as one designed for R134a. I am currently running R134a since we did the conversion back in 2005. Wish I had not converted it.

Well, that isn't happening any time soon. As far as I know my SD508/Sanden compressor and other components are doing just fine. I must replace a leaking low-side hose but other than that my A/C components are good.

I've been doing some research on Freeze-12 and other R-12 subsitutes, and I like what I'm reading about Freeze-12. How difficult would it be to switch to Freeze-12 from R134a. I think that would amount to switching out my fittings if necessary.

My system is basically empty now, but I think it would be a simple matter of vacuuming the system down and installing Freeze-12 after replacing the low-side hose.

Also, where/how to take the MV609 license exam so I can buy Freeze-12 so I can do this myself? Thanks
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1982 Cherokee
258 cid/T-5 $15 Sunpro Voltmeter gauge
replacement; Quadratec Trailmax Thermal Pro
Seats! 4 inch SKYJACKER suspension lift, 33X12.5 in
BFG Mud Terrain Tires on 15X10 in ProComp Rims.
New BJ's chrome-moly rear axle shafts, 3.73:1 diffs and ARB Air Locker!

Last edited by caionneach : 07-22-2010 at 01:10 PM. Reason: bad title
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:14 AM
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cavicatz24 cavicatz24 is offline
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Never heard of Freeze 12 but I've done plenty of R12 to 134a conversions with great results. To get the best performance out of a conversion I have always flushed out the lines, evaporator and condenser, installed a new receiver/dryer, and new expansion valve or fixed orifice tube. After installing the proper amount of PAG and system dye and using fresh, clean 134a I've gotten temps as low as 42 deg from a conversion.
I would imagine that going from 134a to an r12 substitute would be a similar procedure. Be sure to clean the old PAG out of the system if it isn't compatible with F12. Refill with compatible oil and dye and fill.
Not sure on the license as I do all my a/c work through my shop (too bad I ripped all my a/c stuff out after finding out my compressor grenaded).
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:38 AM
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caionneach caionneach is offline
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The company site is here: http://www.freeze12.com/

However, I guess my question really pertains more to the compressor I have, the SD508/Sanden. It came with the vehicle as far as I know in 1982, so it's that old.

When we did the conversion to R134a it cooled just fine, and when recharging the system once the temps were 31 deg at the driver's side vent to the left of the steering column. However, I don't know about the capabilities of this compressor. I know that **some** Sanden compressors are designed to work with several refrigerants, R134a included, especially since R134a requires much higher operating pressures as opposed to R-12. But that does not necessarily apply to the compressor I have. Someone with expert knowledge about Sanden compressors manufactured in the 1980s for our vehicles will need to chime in on this topic (Spectre.....others...). So that's why I am considering Freeze-12 over R134a: I have an aging compressor that I need to keep running, and Freeze-12 will very closely approximate the operating pressures of R-12 for which it was probably designed.
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1982 Cherokee
258 cid/T-5 $15 Sunpro Voltmeter gauge
replacement; Quadratec Trailmax Thermal Pro
Seats! 4 inch SKYJACKER suspension lift, 33X12.5 in
BFG Mud Terrain Tires on 15X10 in ProComp Rims.
New BJ's chrome-moly rear axle shafts, 3.73:1 diffs and ARB Air Locker!
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:14 PM
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seventynine seventynine is offline
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I'm almost positive that a Sanden compressor was not avialable for any FSJ in 1982 either factory or dealer installed. They did put Sandens in the final couple of years in the GWs.

Someone likely swapped that one in. You should have had a York in your '82.

You can but Feeze 12 and R12 all day long on ebay with no license. R12 has been running about $20 a can which isn't too much more than R134.

FWIW I just converted my system to R134 and have had air as cold as 35 degrees. It has been working great so far.

I bought a reman'd York and a new set of hoses for it.

You could also look into ES-12...it's a propane base refrigerant but it supposedly works very well and is a drop in for either R12 or R134 systems.

It's hard to get all of the old oil out of the compressor, hoses, evaporator, and condensor without taking everything apart...You could use ES-12 without changing the oil. Just depends how far into the can of worms you want to dive. I ended up going all of the way;-)

Dean
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Last edited by seventynine : 07-22-2010 at 12:16 PM.
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  #5  
Old 07-22-2010, 12:58 PM
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caionneach caionneach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventynine
I'm almost positive that a Sanden compressor was not avialable for any FSJ in 1982 either factory or dealer installed. They did put Sandens in the final couple of years in the GWs.

Someone likely swapped that one in. You should have had a York in your '82.

You can but Feeze 12 and R12 all day long on ebay with no license. R12 has been running about $20 a can which isn't too much more than R134.


When I search for compressor's for my vehicle at RockAuto.com, the SD508 comes up as the default compressor, and that's a Sanden. I can see that a remanufactured York could be built to handle R134a pressures, or maybe Yorks and Sandens were already at the operating pressure of R134a, I don't know.

So maybe having the Sanden is an advantage, but only if it was originally designed to handle R134a pressures. If so, then I'll stay with R134a and just replace my hoses.

Re buying Freeze-12 without a license, a seller I'm looking at on eBay says "Where there are restrictions, an EPA certificate must be presented before purchasing. Failure to do so MAY result in your order being canceled" so I assumed it was required, however I understand there may be no restrictions where I am.
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1982 Cherokee
258 cid/T-5 $15 Sunpro Voltmeter gauge
replacement; Quadratec Trailmax Thermal Pro
Seats! 4 inch SKYJACKER suspension lift, 33X12.5 in
BFG Mud Terrain Tires on 15X10 in ProComp Rims.
New BJ's chrome-moly rear axle shafts, 3.73:1 diffs and ARB Air Locker!
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  #6  
Old 07-22-2010, 01:57 PM
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caionneach caionneach is offline
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Found these instructions at a Mazda tech forum re Sanden compressors and retrofitting to R134a:

Quote:
Recommended Procedures for Sanden R-12 Compressors Retrofitted with R134a
The use of R134a in mobile A/C systems designed for R-1 2 refrigerant causes higher discharge pressures (as much as 10-15%) and necessitates changing the compressor lubricant from mineral oil (5GS) to PAG oil (Sanden's SP-10 or SP-20) to ensure compatibility.


These changes result in greater wear to the internal components of the compressor. Therefore, to ensure consistent and expected reliability, Sanden does not recommend using R134a in systems and compressors designed for R-1 2.


However, Sanden understands the realities of the automotive service markets and consumer preferences. If a retrofit is required, please follow the vehicle manufacturer's published retrofit procedures. Ensure all work done complies with SAE recommended practices as described in J1660 & J1661:
    • Repair any problems or leaks before retrofitting.
    • Affix labels to the vehicle showing conversion status.
    • Observe all safety recommendations.
If an OEM retrofit procedure is not available, Sanden recommends the following procedure:


Sanden Procedure for Conversion from R-12 to R134a
  1. If the R-12 vehicle air conditioning system is operational, run it at idle with the A/C blower on high speed for five (5) minutes to optimize the amount of oil in the compressor.
  2. Recover all R-12 refrigerant from the vehicle's A/C system. Evacuate the A/C system for at least thirty (30) minutes to a vacuum of 29 in. Hg, using R-12 equipment, to remove as much R-12 as possible from the residue mineral oil. Remove all R-12 service equipment.
  3. Remove the compressor from the vehicle.
  4. Remove the compressor oil plug and then drain as much mineral oil as possible from the compressor body.
  5. Drain mineral oil from the cylinder head suction and discharge ports while turning the shaft with a socket wrench on the clutch armature retaining nut.
  6. Remove the existing R-12 receiver-drier or accumulator-drier from the vehicle and discard. Allow as much oil as possible to drain from the A/C hoses.
  7. Change any 0-rings on the receiver-drier or accumulator-drier joints to approved HNBR 0-rings; check and replace other 0-rings that have been disturbed.
  8. Replace the receiver-drier or accumulator-drier with a new R134a compatible one which contains XH7 or XH9 desiccant.
  9. If a CCOT system is being repaired due to compressor damage, or foreign matter is found in the oil drained from the system, this foreign matter must be removed from the system. At this time an in-line filter should be installed in the liquid line. Allow as much oil as possible to drain from the A/C lines when installing the filter. Change any 0-rings disturbed in the installation of the filter to approved HNBR 0-rings.
  10. Perform any necessary repairs to the compressor or A/C system.
  11. Using the original refrigerant oil quantity specification, add SP-20 or SP-1 0 oil to the compressor (SP-10 for TR, SDV-710, SDB-705, SDB-706 and SDB-709; SP-20 for all other SD compressors).
  12. Replace the compressor oil plug 0-ring with an HNBR 0-ring.
  13. Reinstall the compressor oil plug. The plug seat and 0-ring must be clean and free of damage. Torque the plug to 11-18 ft lb (15-25 N m, 150-250 kgf cm).
  14. Change any seals at the compressor ports to approved HNBR seals.
  15. Reinstall the compressor to the A/C system.
  16. Disable the R-12 service fittings to prevent any refrigerant other than R134a from being used. Permanently install R134a quick connect service fittings to the A/C system.
  17. Connect R134a service hoses and other equipment. Re-evacuate the system for thirty (30) minutes using the R134a equipment.
  18. Charge the A/C system with RI 34a. Generally, about 5% (by weight) less than the R-12 charge amount is required. Leak check the system per SAE J1628 procedure.
  19. If the A/C system is a CCOT type, which has been repaired due to damage or the discovery of foreign material in the oil drained from the system, run the system for sixty (60) minutes to capture this material in the filter installed in step 9. Recover the refrigerant, remove and dispose of the filter, reconnect the lines, evacuate for at least forty-five (45) minutes, and recharge the A/C system. This step should not be necessary for TXV systems, since the drier is fitted with an internal filter.
  20. Check the A/C system operating parameters. The system should function correctly within acceptable limits of temperatures and pressures. This will ensure that the correct amount of R134a has been charged.
  21. In extreme circumstances when expected cooling performance cannot be achieved and high discharge pressures are experienced, it may be necessary to add more condensing capacity to the A/C system. An electric fan(s) and/or a larger capacity condenser can be used.
  22. Replace all R-12 compressor labels with retrofit labels per SAE J1660 in order to provide information on the R134a retrofit which has been performed.
Basic Sanden R-12 Compressor Retrofit

Specifications for Refrigerant Oil

Retrofit PAG oil amount in fluid ounces (cc)ModelExpansion valve systemsOrifice tube systemsSD-5053.4 ± 0.5 (100 ± 15)No standardSD-5075.5 ± 0.5 (165 ± 15)No standardSD-5087.2 ± 0.5 (210 ± 15)9.5 ± 0.5 (280 ±15 )SD-510No standard8.1 ± 0.5 (240 ± 15)SD-7084.6 ± 0.5 (135 ± 15)No standardSD-7094.6 ± 0.5 (135 ± 15)8.1 ± 0.5 (240 ± 15)

Note 1: For long hose, dual evaporator systems, etc. the procedure in the Service Manual should be used.

Note 2: It is recommended that the oil quantity in all cases be reconfirmed after the compressor is installed.
__________________
1982 Cherokee
258 cid/T-5 $15 Sunpro Voltmeter gauge
replacement; Quadratec Trailmax Thermal Pro
Seats! 4 inch SKYJACKER suspension lift, 33X12.5 in
BFG Mud Terrain Tires on 15X10 in ProComp Rims.
New BJ's chrome-moly rear axle shafts, 3.73:1 diffs and ARB Air Locker!
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2010, 02:00 PM
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jsinajeep jsinajeep is offline
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The sanden compressor was std. on the 83 Cherokee with 258 eng. that I have.

Last edited by jsinajeep : 07-22-2010 at 02:06 PM.
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  #8  
Old 07-22-2010, 02:17 PM
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Walt Walt is offline
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I tried freeze 12 a few years ago in another car and I was not impressed. It did not cool as well as the r12 it replaced. The manufacturer claims it is MORE efficient, but that was not my experience, and refrigerant blends come with their own set of issues.
I converted the jeep to 134a and ran it for a couple of years and it worked OK. It did not cool as well as r12, so I changed it back to r12 as soon as I got around to rebuilding the system.
I was concerned about the higher 134a pressures damaging the compressor, but in practice I'm not sure it's really a problem. The compressor I ran 134a in had some kind of bearing problem and was noisy; I figured it would only last a few months with 134a, but the bearings didn't degrade with 134a in the system and it was still pumping fine when I finally got around to replacing it a couple of years later.
If r12 was $60 a can I would say CONVERT! But it's not $60 a can, it's commonly available for about $20 a can, so cost is not really a significant factor over 134a or freeze 12.
If you're worried about the attainability of r12, just get certified. Any hack with an internet connection and 20 bucks to spare can take the open-book safe handling course and get certified like I did.
Our jeep's systems were designed to run r12 and if cooling capacity is going to matter (like in LA...) nothing will cool as well as r12.
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  #9  
Old 07-22-2010, 02:32 PM
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Walt Walt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caionneach

Also, where/how to take the MV609 license exam so I can buy Freeze-12 so I can do this myself? Thanks
I don't remember where I got certified, and I can't find the certification right now... but here's one such site:
http://www.epatest.com/609/openbook/
google searching 'epa 609 online test' should yield plenty of hits.
609 is a certification in the safe handling of CFCs, you don't need to be any kind of qualified technician, just familiar with safe handling practices.
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:54 PM
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caionneach caionneach is offline
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Thanks for that link Walt.

According to the instructions I posted above from Sanden, I really should not have retrofitted to R134a due to lubrication issues. Back when I did the retrofit in 2005 I did not know about those concerns, and the tech that did the job did not have those concerns.

That leads me to believe that I should do a retrograde retrofit back to R12 or use Freeze 12 due to the limitations of using PAG oil in a compressor designed for R12 freon.
__________________
1982 Cherokee
258 cid/T-5 $15 Sunpro Voltmeter gauge
replacement; Quadratec Trailmax Thermal Pro
Seats! 4 inch SKYJACKER suspension lift, 33X12.5 in
BFG Mud Terrain Tires on 15X10 in ProComp Rims.
New BJ's chrome-moly rear axle shafts, 3.73:1 diffs and ARB Air Locker!
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  #11  
Old 07-22-2010, 06:10 PM
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seventynine seventynine is offline
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Ahh..thats right the six cylinder engine exists Didn't think of that and I don't have any knowledge about em in FSJs...I should have read your sig...I assumed it was a V8.

Dean

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsinajeep
The sanden compressor was std. on the 83 Cherokee with 258 eng. that I have.
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'79 J10
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  #12  
Old 07-22-2010, 06:44 PM
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caionneach caionneach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventynine
Ahh..thats right the six cylinder engine exists Didn't think of that and I don't have any knowledge about em in FSJs...I should have read your sig...I assumed it was a V8.

Dean

Oh! I could have had a V8!

I have a York compressor too, but it's reserved for on-board air. Spectre has a write-up about using R134a in the *aftermarket* Sanden, but I don't think his R134a optimism applies to my Sanden.
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258 cid/T-5 $15 Sunpro Voltmeter gauge
replacement; Quadratec Trailmax Thermal Pro
Seats! 4 inch SKYJACKER suspension lift, 33X12.5 in
BFG Mud Terrain Tires on 15X10 in ProComp Rims.
New BJ's chrome-moly rear axle shafts, 3.73:1 diffs and ARB Air Locker!
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  #13  
Old 07-22-2010, 07:33 PM
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seventynine seventynine is offline
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Well...they still use the Sanden compressors for R134 these days...can you just get reman'd or used unit set up for R134? I don't really have any experience with them but they all look similar...so a newer one might bolt right up.

The other issue with going to R134 is that the older rubber R12 hoses don't hold up well with the R134. I just re-built my York system with new hoses and a reman'd compressor:
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showt...20#post1141520

Dean

Quote:
Originally Posted by caionneach
Oh! I could have had a V8!

I have a York compressor too, but it's reserved for on-board air. Spectre has a write-up about using R134a in the *aftermarket* Sanden, but I don't think his R134a optimism applies to my Sanden.
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Old 07-23-2010, 07:27 AM
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I don't think pressure is the issue with the compressor no matter which one you use. My understanding is that some compressors use rubber seals or orings that had to be changed to a different rubber compound for the oil. I do not have any evidence of that though. If that is the case, a new compressor should be compliant.
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Actually, now that I think about it, that could be either awesome or really terrible.


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Old 07-23-2010, 08:07 AM
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seventynine seventynine is offline
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Right...this is what I have read as well. A tech at CCI told me that the oil will start turn gray as it gets contaminated with dissolved rubber from the hoses and gaskets. R134 is just a lot more corrosive than R12.

Dean
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:19 AM
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Walt Walt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventynine
Well...they still use the Sanden compressors for R134 these days...can you just get reman'd or used unit set up for R134? I don't really have any experience with them but they all look similar...so a newer one might bolt right up.

Dean
Sure, sanden still makes compressors, but the new sd7 models are designed for the higher pressures. The 'aftermarket' compressors work just fine, like Spectre used, but the jeep compressors had a special head that pretty much no other sd508 had (only difference being the fittings on the head, the body/clutch is identical).
Spectre just made up custom hoses to fit the compressor. Another option would be to swap out the heads and use the original jeep head on a new or rebuilt compressor. I did that with on a sankyo/sanden in an old alpha romeo in college. I don't know if the old head would necessarily be compatible with the new model compressor though...
I'd have to search to find my old thread on the subject, but there were a couple of years of ford truck that used our same compressor in dealer installed air.
BTW, I've got a pdh sanden sd7 service manual if anybody wants a copy.
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Last edited by Walt : 07-23-2010 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caionneach
As far as I know my SD508/Sanden compressor and other components are doing just fine.
Also... the larger displacement sd709 is a direct replacement for the sd508. I guess they used the smaller compressor on the 6 to reduce the load?
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