TH400.... are the bolt patterns different....

**PAJEEPER** · 02-01-2001, 09:28 AM

Yes you will have to use the adapter and spacer. It has a different bolt pattern than later 1 piece TH400's. What I would do is take out the output shaft for the D20 and install it and the D20 on you existing TH400. Would probably take more work but sounds better than having that adapter plate in there.

------------------
Greg

'81 J10
258,727,208
custom bumpers 4" pipe f,square tube r.
Yellow powdercoated wheels.

'77 J20
360 4BBL,400,Q-trac.
Heavy duty steel flatbed.
Currently under construction with new frame.

***Kenall*** · 02-01-2001, 03:24 PM

ummm...y u doing this???

i take it u dont already have a th400 bolted to the back of ur 360...right? if u do...see question #1

u lookn to swap from the QT to the d20? then all u need is the:

output shaft from the d20 th400.
the xcase adaptor from same, including the 15spline sleeve.
and the d20.

u dont need to bolt the pre 74 th40 to ur 360...just swap out the required d20 parts from it to ur th400...

do u like spam eggs sausage and spam?

do u like Vikings?

do u have a parrot that is just 'resting'?

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'

**jeepbob** · 02-01-2001, 04:52 PM

to translate to english, take the output shaft and T/C adapter from the early t400 and put in later t400, although with my bog truck I never had a problem running the early trans with the engine adapter. When I put the T400/D20 in my 65 with the 360, I changed it over because I did not have an adapter plate to fit because I did not have the foresight to save the one I had. The bog truck had a 350 Buick.
If you decide to change the shaft over, this would be a good time to upgrade to kevlar clutches and bands as they hold up much better than the stock units.

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[This message has been edited by jeepbob (edited February 02, 2001).]

**River Beast** · 02-01-2001, 08:35 PM

I understand that all I need is the output shaft from the "other" TH400, adapter, an Dana 20....I was just looking at the possibility of staying on the road and "rebuilding" the TH400/D20 combo so I wouldn't have to tear into my existing one

Sounds dumb, but cheaper....for me.

I may venture other avenues now that I know the bolt patterens are different.

Does anybody know where you can just buy a TH400 tailshaft and the mating gear for it inside a Dana 20?

Thanks for the input guys...

My purposed for the proposed swap is the fact that I ahve 39's and don't want to keep changin out chains in the QT once a year (over-exaggerating a little)

Kenall... what's your thoughts on the QT being able to withstand the torque of 39's and 4.89's with a P/T kit installed? This is another approach...

Thanks again...

------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: [email protected]
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

***Kenall*** · 02-02-2001, 01:02 PM

for the weight u have and the size of ur tires..u need gear drive!!

if u r confident about the condition of the early th400/d20 to meet ur requirements than install the early combo.

but since u r gonna use the th400 in a very demanding enviorment, then haveing the later th400 'gone thru' and instal the early th400 output shaft wood save money in the long run...

the output shaft used in the early th400/d20 combos is the same as the 2wd passenger car 'short shaft' used in 2wd th400s.

but a sleeve is used to mate the 2wd output shaft to the special internal 15spline input shaft of the d20.

at the very least u need, the sleeve, the adaptor and the input gear from the early combo. all of these parts will be on the back of the early th400 when u remove the d20.

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'

**River Beast** · 02-02-2001, 02:28 PM

Ken,

You always come thru for me...thanks for the wealth of info and I thought you would agree on the gear drive being the better choice for my application.

Now... since last time I posted I have found a Dana 20 (from a TH400), but no output shaft or adapter.

To all...

Does anybody have a source for these at a "good" price.... I think a while back somebody had told me about $150 fo the output shaft, but can't find an adapter (mount) that goes between the TH400 and the Dana 20.

HELP me find these parts... PLEASE!!!!

Thanks

------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: [email protected]
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

**scotty** · 02-02-2001, 08:31 PM

RB,dont forget that if youre still wanting to use an 18 that you need to be able to swap the input gear.

kenall,r u saying that the th400/d20 input gear has 15 internal splines? if this is the case,then youll be stuck using a d20,since no 18 came with a 15 spline input gear.only 10 and 6.what youll prolly need to do is use an aftermarket kit that utilizes a 6 splne output shaft,then you can use either a 20 or an 18.

but if a factory th400 d20 input gear has 15 internal splines,id prolly think twice about using factory stuff.remember,the d20 cas a centered rear output. if your gonna use an xfer with a centered output,it would prolly be fairly easy to find a gm th400 and np 205. the 205 is a big beefy gear drive case thats rated at 900 ft/lbs of input torque. it would be the same deal-just swap the gm output shaft and adapter into your amc housing. id be very,very surprised if you could break a 205-even with 39s.

the 18 is still a good plan,i think,and is comparable in strength to the d20.

just some more food for thot...

------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

**River Beast** · 02-02-2001, 11:23 PM

Thanks Scotty... it seems that 18's are rare and I maight being waiting a while to find one... however..... you make a good point on the 205. Hmmm.....I should be able to get some time next week to go "hunting" in the boneyard. MAybe I'll take a peek..thanks

In a gear driven case, what usually "goes BAD"... ie... like the chain of the QT... I've had the NP203's in the past (still chain driven) so I have no "insight" on the gear drives.

Ken,

your thoughts on the potential 205???

***
I know it seems like a bowl of "mixed nuts" but have to leave my options open.... til I find what will work and what's available.

------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: [email protected]
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

**porkchop** · 02-03-2001, 12:32 AM

Todd, remember I was telling you about the place that has all the Jeep parts? Well if I remember he had a 205 as well as a few more GM cases and tranny's. You need to call him to make sure though. The number is 783-8975.

------------------
'67/'79 Wagoneer mix
?Old Timer?
Check it out!

Mods, Mods, and more Mods! The end is no where in site, but I am sure I am closer to the fork in the road.

**scotty** · 02-03-2001, 02:48 PM

nothing typically goes bad on a gear drive case-thats the beauty of them

it is possible for gears to break or chip teeth,or bearings to go out.in extreme cases,a case could crack or break. for the most part,all of these things can be attributed to low(or none) fluid,and/or a combo of too much power,too big a tire,and "foot to the floor" driving techniques that result in bouncing and rapidly spinning wheels suddenly finding traction.

other than that,i havent seen much gear drive breakge on the trail. i have seen aluminum cases throw chains,crack,and blow big chunks out of the sides.a friend of mine broke the tailshaft right off of a 231. a friend of mine did break a dana 20,but thats pretty much due to the fact that he doesnt really believe in preventative maintenance,and his xfer turned out to be full of no lube other than water.oops.in his case it just locked up-he came to a screeching halt with the back wheels not spinning in 2wd. another frined broke a dana 20(sort of) when a U bolt on the front axle that wan not tight,and let the front axle twist,collapsing the too short front driveshaft,and pushing the xfer off the adapter,stripping the holes. i think all damage was done to the case as they pulled it back to camp.even still,the put a ratchet strap n there to hold him on,and drove it all the way home. definately couldnt have done that with a broken QT... i have had euff troubles personally with aluminum chain drive cases that it finally became a worthwhile option to swap front axles to use a gear drive. now i dont worry about it breaking

it definately,goes to show importance of clean fluid,proper planning/mesuring and being thorough(check tightness of all bolts) in doing mods.

anyway,hope this helps.let me know if i can be of further assistance...

------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

***Kenall*** · 02-04-2001, 05:48 AM

yes the 205 wood be an even better choice than that of the d20...but, the 205 (of corse) only came on GM 4x4s with GM tranys..hence the trany u find bolted in front of the 205 of ur dreams wont bolt to ur 360, unless u by the AA adaptor to do so, more $$$.

this bring us back to just using the trany output shaft, the trany to xcase adaptor and the chosen xcase from WHATEVER combo u stick with, be it GM or Jeep.

the d18 is DEFINATELY OUT. it does not have even the slightest chance of withstanding the weight of 39s and a 5k-lb jeep.

SCOTTY!!, its not the INTERNAL spline count of the input gear to the xcase, its the number of EXTERNAL teeth (on the input gear) and the degree to which they are cut from center line that is paramount.

if the xcase u have requries an input gear to have 29 teeth cut at 22.5degrees from center line, than it does not matter HOW the gear is attached to the output shaft of the tranny.

RB can go to AA and buy a kit that will bolt a d20/18 to ANY th400, but he will have to determine what EXTERNAL tooth count his d20 requires and match it to an 6 internal spline input gear for the kit to work...more $$$

so RB..r u now saying the th400/d20 u had a line on is just a d20 by itself with no adaptor or input gear or trany output shaft??

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor'

**jeepbob** · 02-04-2001, 07:55 AM

RB the 205 case is a much stronger case, the main problem is finding one to bolt to a turbo 400 as most of the auto tranny Chevies were T350's. Another thought would be to find a Dodge divored unit. Then there would be no adaptor, just 3 driveshafts.
The AA kits run between $570 to $610 depending on the T400 you use. I looked into these before I bought the the pickup bog truck. The $500 spent on the truck gave me lots of parts to sell including a 65000mile 350 Buick that sold for $350, so you might want to consider buying a complete truck.

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

**scotty** · 02-04-2001, 11:28 PM

kenall,if you unbolt the input gear, what splines are the tailshaft on the factory th400/d20 combo?

u r correct in saying that the input gear(tooth count and pitch) must match the xfer case.the d20 and 18 take different input gears. but the input gear must be swappable if he wants to use an 18.thats what i was refering to.an 18 input gear bolts to eitherr a 6 or 10 spline output shaft. so the d20 gear u r replacing must also be bolted to a 6 or 10 spline shaft,or u r up a creek,so to speak...

i disagree with the notion that the 18 will not hold up to 39s,especially if you swap the guts into the beefier 20 case and add a brace to keep them from cracking in one certain spot that is supposedly a week area. i have seen guys at gravelrama use an 18 behind a 1000 hp smallblock and turning big huge paddle tires. i think the 18 will hold up as good as a 20,and the output if offset to match the rear diff. if u want to wait untillnext year,ill be able totell you how well it will hold up,im gonna use one with 38x15.50 groundhawgs.

there is no debate that the 205 is stronger than a d20,300,or 18.it is abuot twice the size,and prolly weighs twice as much.the guy at AA told my frined that the 205 is rated at 900 ftlbs of input torque,the 300 at 600,and the atlas II somewere in between,but couldnt say exactly how much.

jeep bob,i wish i lived in your area,aroud here you see 203s attached to th350s.i see a fair amount of th400/205 combos for sale,anywhere from $400 to $800.you hardly ever see th350/205s around here,i wish i could find one,id really like to replace the 203 in my camaro with a 205.

let me throw out one more little tidbit: once you have secured a th400/205,somewhere down the road if you have an extra $800 or so burning a hole in your pocket,you can purchase off road designs doubler kit to add a 203 range box betwee the 205 and th400. if youve got enuff rear driveshaft room,this would prolly even help your front prollem,as it will make the front somewhere between 7 and 9 inches longer...

here is some info on the doubler: http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/doubler.htm

check out here for the strength brace for the 18: www.tricountygear.com

------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

**River Beast** · 02-05-2001, 01:44 AM

OK... to answer Kenall's question...

I have a choice of a disassembled D20 and needing the output shaft. the orignal TH400 output shaft stripped away, but the gear insdie the D20 was undamaged.

The other setup is the combo older TH400/D20 with adapter plate to mount to the 360.

Now I have to go and look at the TH400/205 combo... I heard the guy is high priced, but never did any business with him before so we shall see. He also has D300's laying around as well from what I have "heard".

When I get a chance to go down there, I will let you know what I find.

To sum this up... it's safe to say that the 205 would be the best choice for my application... correct? Now if the 205 is out of reach the D20 will work... just have to find the output shaft I guess OR get the combo set and swap everything over.

Thanks a million for all the help you have provided.. a wealth of knowledge... you guys are great.

------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: [email protected]
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

TH400.... are the bolt patterns different....

TH400.... are the bolt patterns different....

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