Is the fuel injection conversion worth it?

[mjragona]

is the fuel injection conversion for the 360 v8 worth it i have an 88 grand wagoneer and was thinking bout converting it but wasnt shur if it really wothr it any words from the wise could use the help anyone

[Joe Guilbeau]

A used Holley Pro-Jection system such as the 502-2 with either the Analog or Digital Electronic Control Unit would be a good choice.

I have been running one for the past 16 years without any problems.

1. You MUST have a good electrical system or it will not work. This means a good alternator like a CS-130 due to its superior regulaton.

2. You MUST have a good grounding system, to the block from the battery and from the block to the chassis. I go from the battery to the AC top bolt and from the AC Top Bolt to the Radiator Mount bolt.

3. You MUST use relays to power up two electronic fuel pumps, I choose a Holley 802 Blue mounted at the frame crossmember just in front of the spare tire carrier.

3a. The second electronic fuel pump is mounted on the left fender well, the reason for two pumps is that the supplied pumps that come with the OEM shipped Pro-Jection get overwhelmed pumping. The 802 Blue pump primes the engine bay mounted pump.

3b. It is simple to troubleshoot fuel delivery problems now, you can hear both pumps run, as they prime for 3 seconds or so when you turn the key to the ON but not Start position. Secondly, they provide back-up in case one fails, the likely hood that both will fail in the same day is extremely remote, so you can always limp home simply by bypassing the failed pump and you are on the road (even 200 miles from the nearest road) in 15 minutes or less.

4. You have to supply a return line to the gas tank, this line must not see a pressure of over 2 psi.

5. The analog is easire to tune than the Electronic, needing only an adjustment of the throttle position sensor (do this by hand as someone attempts to start the vehicle, just move it 3/8ths of an inch up or down until the vehicle starts and runs, by cracking the throttle plate 1/8th inch open. Run the vehicle until it gets warm, and put all of the knobs at center position. Adjust until you have a high idle with the Throttle Position Sensor, and go in the cab and adjust the Idle potentiometer to see if it raises and lowers the idle. You are looking for a baseline of idle where the vehicle will start and run. From here it is a matter of adjusting the Mid-range potentiometer until the idle of the vehicle tops out and begins to drop again. Adjust for highest rpm's, then back off a bit.

6. Now adjust the fuel pressure at the throttle body fuel pressure regulator to somewher between 11-13PSI, initial startup would be 12PSI.

Carry a spare Throttle Position Sensor at all times, these fail with daily driving about once every 2 years or so, or if they get wet.

Buy a used on, get a spare ECU and TPS and you will be set.

[crispyboy]

I would cast a vote for a Howell system or other GM throttle body system. I have had one in my truck for approx. 8 years. Had one throttle position sensor go out - otherwise trouble free - dependable.

[jaber]

I have been running a GM conversion for over 7 years, on the same engine.
The engine is in its second GW, and just last week I had to swap out the fuel pump. This is the wifes DD and has run like a top since I put it onto the fresh rebuild.

The driveability is great and cold starts are a thing of the past for her...

[FSJ Guy]

See my sig link for info on putting a GM TBI system in an FSJ. There is a link there for Binder Planet's TBI info, too. The TBI forum moderator, Bill, has a GREAT FAQ which you should read about 10 times. Seriously.

I will disagree about needing an upgraded alternator. The ECM and related components don't use up THAT much energy. But it certainly wouldn't hurt things.

There are folks who are quite happy using the OEM Jeep gas tank, but I swapped in a Chevy S10 tank (details in sig link) with an in-tank fuel pump and couldn't be happier.

DO NOT SWAP TO TBI if you think you will get better gas mileage.

Install TBI to get better drivability (cold starts, altitude changes, off-camber driving, etc). If you get better gas mileage, it was probably because your existing carb wasn't adjusted correctly.

There are several turnkey solutions and of course the DIY junkyard solution. See my sig link to find out which one I like best.

[Joe Guilbeau]

I will disagree about needing an upgraded alternator. The ECM and related components don't use up THAT much energy. But it certainly wouldn't hurt things.

Perhaps you had better results with your Holley Analog Pro-Jection installation?

I will qualify my post with saying that the regulation of the voltage is the critical issue and not the amps, although with two electronic fuel pumps the extra amps (as you mention) come in handy.

The Holley Pro-Jection analog system was designed by MSD for Holley and it has taken a lot of abuse due mainly to the fact that Holley went out of house to have the design engineered by an outside source.

With no in-house engineering on the project, they were unable to grasp the fine details of the installation and Tech Support was just not aware of some of the issues. This was understandable, and the Analog system quickly garnered a bad reputation.

I have had 16 years of experience with this system and there are better systems out there; however for about $300 to $400 dollars, you can get a used Holley Pro-Jection Analog complete system, so it is a cost vs. performance hands down winner.

By the way, for those of you out there with MSD 6A ignitions, the MSD manuals clearly states to not use the the MSD 6A as a Tach Output source, they have a Tach Adapter for that, using that Tach Adapter will get you where you want to be. It is all in the details.

[FSJ Guy]

Perhaps you had better results with your Holley Analog Pro-Jection installation?

Ha ha!

That's funny. I first tried a Holley analog system and gave up on it. It was either due to problems with the system or user error, I couldn't tell you which. I still have two old control boxes and a wiring harness somewhere in the garage...

The GM system has a way of compensating for different voltage. I don't know about the Holley system.

I confess that I didn't originally see that you were referring to the Holley system when talking about alternator importance.

[Billygoat]

I have the Howell system and like it, I was the first (and maybe still the only) to have them add ignition control to there stock V8 kit, the dizzy mods are very easy, it is costly, if I decide to go TBI on Gonzo I will do DIY.

[Joe Guilbeau]

Ha ha!

That's funny. I first tried a Holley analog system and gave up on it. It was either due to problems with the system or user error, I couldn't tell you which. I still have two old control boxes and a wiring harness somewhere in the garage...

I will be more than happy to give you all the assistance in the world if you ever want to install those units on a vehicle...trust me on this, I know the system pretty well.

And I have a guy that may be interested in the Analog ECUs if you ever want to sell them.

Block Diagram of the Holley Pro-Jection Analog 502 Series Throttle Body Injection and ECU

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=05012780&SectionNum=2&IDKey=9FF261FBF5C6&HomeUrl=http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=5012780.PN.%2526OS=PN/5012780%2526RS=PN/5012780

Throttle Body itself

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=05012780&PageNum=3&IDKey=9FF261FBF5C6&HomeUrl=http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=5012780.PN.%2526OS=PN/5012780%2526RS=PN/5012780

Side View of Throttle Body

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=05012780&PageNum=4&IDKey=9FF261FBF5C6&HomeUrl=http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=5012780.PN.%2526OS=PN/5012780%2526RS=PN/5012780

Block Diagram of the Analog ECU

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=05012780&PageNum=6&IDKey=9FF261FBF5C6&HomeUrl=http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=5012780.PN.%2526OS=PN/5012780%2526RS=PN/5012780

Schematic Diagram of the ECU with Closed Loop Oxygen Sensor

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=05261382&PageNum=7&IDKey=7134A688C47C&HomeUrl=http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=5261382.PN.%2526OS=PN/5261382%2526RS=PN/5261382

[hillbillyhans]

My friend just put the edlebrock EFI on his '69 Land Cruiser, and it is sweet! For the money, I will put this unit on my rig.

[ThisGuyUKnow]

I cant speak for TBI set ups but i did a junkyard MPI on my 258 and I will never look back. Currently trying to make an MPI set up for my 360.

[mdill]

Pretty much agree with you for the most part, I think Joe's point, and one I would agree with is the CS-130/144 do have better regulation and control the alt-dump high voltage spike's that SI produce when a high load turns on/off, so while the stock SI can handle the extra load fine (depending on the use model i.e. no extended low RPM lights/heater ... use) the CS series is a better choice for the electronics for transient voltage control. (less chance of a spike taking out the ECU)

Mike D.

See my sig link for info on putting a GM TBI system in an FSJ. There is a link there for Binder Planet's TBI info, too. The TBI forum moderator, Bill, has a GREAT FAQ which you should read about 10 times. Seriously.

I will disagree about needing an upgraded alternator. The ECM and related components don't use up THAT much energy. But it certainly wouldn't hurt things.

There are folks who are quite happy using the OEM Jeep gas tank, but I swapped in a Chevy S10 tank (details in sig link) with an in-tank fuel pump and couldn't be happier.

DO NOT SWAP TO TBI if you think you will get better gas mileage.

Install TBI to get better drivability (cold starts, altitude changes, off-camber driving, etc). If you get better gas mileage, it was probably because your existing carb wasn't adjusted correctly.

There are several turnkey solutions and of course the DIY junkyard solution. See my sig link to find out which one I like best.

[Blake]

I say no, it's not worth it.

Back in the day, I built/installed several kinds of FI for several kinds of V8's (chevy, amc, IH) and they all worked ok. Just "OK".

IMHO FI won't perform any better on an old V8 than a WELL tuned carb.

I am saying this from experience and my use cases (I 'wheel, and I 'wheel A LOT). My DD is a factory FI Landcruiser.

FI is cool for those who enjoy tinkering around with their engines.

[Blake]

oh - I'm not knocking FI at all.

Just saying that it's not worth it In My Humble Opinion. As SR sys admin, I am all about technology, but not when I'm in the middle of nowhere and lose an 'unnecessary' electrical component.

[mdill]

I would go just the opposit, and say having a Carb is OK for those that like "tinkering around" , a good EFI (GM setup anyway) will stay tuned much longer (maybe not better) than a Carb setup can.

I say no, it's not worth it.

Back in the day, I built/installed several kinds of FI for several kinds of V8's (chevy, amc, IH) and they all worked ok. Just "OK".

IMHO FI won't perform any better on an old V8 than a WELL tuned carb.

I am saying this from experience and my use cases (I 'wheel, and I 'wheel A LOT). My DD is a factory FI Landcruiser.

FI is cool for those who enjoy tinkering around with their engines.