3spd to 700R4 swap?

[Jacksons Hole]

Hi all. Sorry for the gaper question, but until I really do start getting my knuckles dirty I'll have a lot of them.

New owner of a '71 J-2500 and have been reading up on them lately and trying to plan out the rebuild. Today's question is on the tranny...

Currently, I have the 360 mated to the 3-spd manual. Right off the bat I realized I'm not good at diagnosing what's good and what's bad since I've never driven a "good" J-2500! I'm comparing this thing to my WJ, TJ, and XJ and I know that's dumb. (ie the clutch seems to be very very worn, but I'm used to an '06 TJ clutch and an '05 Subie clutch).

ANYWAY....since I think I may need to do some work to clutch/tranny, I was wondering how easy is a 700R4 swap? A search led me to believe its doable (BJ's has the adapters for relatively cheap) and has been done a lot...but no real instructions.

If it's possible:
1) How easy/cost effective is it?
2) What are the best donor vehicles (gear ratios etc - I assume I'll have a tranny shop do the final install, but I figure not having to regear would save $)?
3) Would I need a shorter drive shaft? If so...how do I acquire/fabricate one?
4) Should I swap T-Case too?
5) Do most folks keep a shifter on the floor (ie a Hurst) or do you go stock column? Is the rest of the interior work pretty easy? Hopefully the shifter wouldn't affect my planned center console etc..


I think that's it for now. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to help. In a few years I'll be embarrassed looking back at threads like this, but for now, I'm a total FSJ noob.

[Billygoat]

I got a quote from Novak last fall, adapters, floor shifter and a stage 1 rebuilt 700r4 - $2500
The 401 and NP208 adapters are about $400 each!
The rebuilt tranny is about $1200 with a warranty, so far a core tranny and rebuild kit puts me close to that with me doing the work so buying 1 out the door looks like the route to go unless I can find a cheap core.

Remember going from a manual to auto you need to get a flex plate, BJ's has them.

[Wagoneerlover]

If it's possible:
1) How easy/cost effective is it?
2) What are the best donor vehicles (gear ratios etc - I assume I'll have a tranny shop do the final install, but I figure not having to regear would save $)?
3) Would I need a shorter drive shaft? If so...how do I acquire/fabricate one?
4) Should I swap T-Case too?
5) Do most folks keep a shifter on the floor (ie a Hurst) or do you go stock column? Is the rest of the interior work pretty easy? Hopefully the shifter wouldn't affect my planned center console etc..


I think that's it for now. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to help. In a few years I'll be embarrassed looking back at threads like this, but for now, I'm a total FSJ noob.

1) depends on how much of the work you can do on your own. The more hands (Shops) that dig into the pot the less cost effective it becomes (The expense begins to go up) but then again that depends on your personal budget as well.
2) 89 and later vehicles as the earlier 700r4's are plagued by an internal problem/weakness (it is fixable but why spend the extra money?)
3) The driveshaft will definitely need to be shortened/lengthened. I actually am running a 4 speed automatic in my rig. (Not the 700r4 but a different transmission. I dont know about your neck of the woods but out here there are a few driveline shops nearby that did the work for me. I took my old driveshaft in and they did a few measurements on what I had in my rig and they cut/lengthened/shortened my existing ones. (Front and rear had to be adjusted) A few members have done their own I think.
4) Some have kept the existing case some have swapped. (I have not worked on a 700r4- when doing such a swap yet so some of the others who have done it or who are more knowledgeable on the 700r-4 will chime in I am sure.
5). I don't know of anyone nearby who has done the 700r4 swap so I wouldnt be able to help you here. (Although I could tell you what I did on mine) but from what research I have done on the 700r4 I would think that it could be done either way. (Your shift points on the column just wouldn't mesh up etc as I think the 700r4 has D, 3, 2, 1 and our rigs have D, 2, 1 (Park, nuetral and reverse ommitted) I could be wrong on that though.

[Casey]

700R4...I'm learning

Two issues right off the bat.
Adapting to the engine, and the transfer case. Both can be done with adapters.

http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/kit_107.htm

And the TV cable. There are adapter brackets made for tv cable hook up to many carburators.

Check this site out: http://www.tvmadeez.com/

Find a 'K' body 700R4 found in 4x4s from S-10 Blazers to 1/2 ton trucks/'Burbs.
Or 4L60 - same thing except the 30 spline output - IIRC.
Until '95 when it went to 4L60E. If you use this one and the ECM you don't have to fuss with the tv cable.

All of them share bolt patterns.

The later '96+ should have a the 6bolt round pattern tailshaft.

My rig is a poor example of a 700 swap as my engine is a Chevy and so is my t-c. I'm using a column out of a K-5 Blazer with a customized Chevy and stock shift linkage. No room for a floor shifter, I'll have three transfer case shifters on the floor!

[Jacksons Hole]

Thanks for the quick replies!

Billy - that's exactly around the price I was finding via the google. I was hoping to make it cheaper by finding a used 700R4, rather than rebuilt...but I guess that's pretty stupid if I wanted to do this right (no clue how many neutral drops the Suburban owner did etc).

Waggy - I'm going to do as much as I possibly can - I just know I'm limited in terms of anything that has gears. I don't want to screw with my diffs or tranny gears because I know they are uber sensitive. So that being said, I probably can't do TOO much in terms of this swap. But I wouldn't in a clutch/tranny rebuild either! As long as my WJ sells, I was going to try to keep this whole project under $3k, but I know that number will probably escalate when I start thinking of larger mods such as this one.

Which tranny did you use? Casey mentioned the 4L60 which I forgot existed - I just kept thinking about the 4L60E and figured that would be more of a pain in a '71 with little to no computerized parts. Also, thanks for all that info. I would probably go floor shifter instead of trying to install a column. I also wanted to put in a tuffy lockable center console for my headunit, so I'm just a little concerned about space.

Casey - thanks for the donor info!

[Jeep Craze]

hey, I was gonna do the same exact thing. I had a 700r4 rebuilt with corvette servos and all, bought the 360 adapter from bj's, took a chevy 208 input shaft and put it in a jeep 208 case, then decided my 360 wasn't what I wanted so ......................changed directions. Took a complete drivetrain out f a 99 durango and swapped it in.



So long story short, I have 2500.00 in the trans,adapters,transfercase,kickdown cable,throttle bracket,etc,etc,etc.......I will let it all go for 1800.00!!!!!!


Smoking deal

[Wagoneerlover]

Thanks for the quick replies!
Waggy - I'm going to do as much as I possibly can - I just know I'm limited in terms of anything that has gears. I don't want to screw with my diffs or tranny gears because I know they are uber sensitive. So that being said, I probably can't do TOO much in terms of this swap. But I wouldn't in a clutch/tranny rebuild either! As long as my WJ sells, I was going to try to keep this whole project under $3k, but I know that number will probably escalate when I start thinking of larger mods such as this one.

Which tranny did you use? Casey mentioned the 4L60 which I forgot existed - I just kept thinking about the 4L60E and figured that would be more of a pain in a '71 with little to no computerized parts. Also, thanks for all that info. I would probably go floor shifter instead of trying to install a column. I also wanted to put in a tuffy lockable center console for my headunit, so I'm just a little concerned about space.

Another member here and I swapped in aw-4 transmissions from the smaller jeep cherokee into our rigs. There are no adapter plates required to attach this transmission to the amc 360 engine as they share the same bolt pattern. You will need to wire in the electronic controller but this swap was so easy for me and for him. you can also set this transmission up for manual control. If you retain the np242 transfer case then you wont need an adapter plate but if you want to keep the np 228,229 or 208 then you will need an adapter. (But hey that is one less adapter that is needed and maybe none depending on what trans case you use.) We have a sort of half-write up on it but I was going to do a full write up on it shortly (Maybe). However the 700r-4 is also a good transmission. Whichever you decide to use just do as much research as you can before making the final decision, and determine if the particular transmission you want to go with is right for you.

[Jacksons Hole]

I will let it all go for 1800.00!!!!!!

That is a good deal - but like Wagoneer mentions, I'm in research mode right now and sadly will be until the WJ is sold. Maybe small pieces here and there until then, but unfortunately I don't have $1800 right now. If it's still available this summer, I could be interested - but I doubt it will be.

Another member here and I swapped in aw-4 transmissions from the smaller jeep cherokee into our rigs. There are no adapter plates required to attach this transmission to the amc 360 engine as they share the same bolt pattern. You will need to wire in the electronic controller but this swap was so easy for me and for him. you can also set this transmission up for manual control. If you retain the np242 transfer case then you wont need an adapter plate but if you want to keep the np 228,229 or 208 then you will need an adapter. (But hey that is one less adapter that is needed and maybe none depending on what trans case you use.) We have a sort of half-write up on it but I was going to do a full write up on it shortly (Maybe). However the 700r-4 is also a good transmission. Whichever you decide to use just do as much research as you can before making the final decision, and determine if the particular transmission you want to go with is right for you.

I've been scared away from installing an electronic controller. Should I not be? That swap actually sounds fairly easy. I can pull an engine and bolt on a tranny...I just don't want to dig into a tranny to rebuild etc.

So of course, I demand you post a full write-up.

Do you have the link to the partial one?


Cheers!

[Jacksons Hole]

Oh yeah....and a related gaper question. HTF do I figure out what T-Case I have in this beast? On my WJ it took about 3 seconds.

I like the idea of the AW-4 (since I had that in my XJ which to this point is still my fav Jeep)....I'm pretty sure I had either the 700R4 or the 4L60 in my '93 Jimmy back in HS.



.....And the transmission was the downfall of that rig. Sold it with a top speed of 25 (for the XJ ) and 3 tranny rebuilds later. Whatever was in there was terrible. Since it was a GM 4spd auto I have to assume it was one of those 2.

[Wagoneerlover]

Oh yeah....and a related gaper question. HTF do I figure out what T-Case I have in this beast? On my WJ it took about 3 seconds.

I like the idea of the AW-4 (since I had that in my XJ which to this point is still my fav Jeep)....I'm pretty sure I had either the 700R4 or the 4L60 in my '93 Jimmy back in HS.



.....And the transmission was the downfall of that rig. Sold it with a top speed of 25 (for the XJ ) and 3 tranny rebuilds later. Whatever was in there was terrible. Since it was a GM 4spd auto I have to assume it was one of those 2.

If you want to figure out what transfer case you have in your rig take a look at the rear of the transfer case. There is typically a tag back there that will have the make and model of the transfer case (At least some of the cases that came in these rigs do, depending on what case you have) For the older rigs I am not sure.

I too am a huge aw-4 supporter. The wiring was about as easy as wiring goes. The transmission control computer is not integrated into the engine computer so all you need is the computer and the associated wiring and you dont have to worry about bypassing or tricking the engine management computer because in the xj's the two (At least with the earlier aw-4's) are not integrated and they dont use signals from the other to operate. The very first xj I had with the aw-4 had about 250,000 miles on it and the trans was still going strong (Original trans no rebuilds ever) the engine is what gave out on me I bet that trans would have easily made it 100 thousand more.

The only issue that you may have with the aw-4 is that it doesnt have a real first gear selection. it has the integrated 1-2 shift point. But mine has been holding up in my rig with my 360 for a while and I love it. Other than that it doesnt have nearly as much aftermarket support as the 700r4 and 4l60/4l60e.

Posted below is a link to the partial write up/thread that another member and I answered some questions in.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=98429

[crazydog]

Oh yeah....and a related gaper question. HTF do I figure out what T-Case I have in this beast? On my WJ it took about 3 seconds.

http://www.ifsja.org/tech/figures/db.html

If it is the stock drivetrain, but it is best to look everything over to be sure.

[Jacksons Hole]

I'm starting to like the AW4 idea....

http://www.ifsja.org/tech/figures/db.html

If it is the stock drivetrain, but it is best to look everything over to be sure.

Thanks for the link. I'll check to make sure, but it looks like I have a D-20.

[reece146]

You can get full control of the AW4 (including the 1-2 shift thing) by using the controller from Montana Fab [ http://www.montanafab.com/aw4_trany_overide.php ].

You can also do it yourself if you understand how to control the solenoids directly yourself. Google is your friend in this instance.

[Jacksons Hole]

You can get full control of the AW4 (including the 1-2 shift thing) by using the controller from Montana Fab [ http://www.montanafab.com/aw4_trany_overide.php ].

You can also do it yourself if you understand how to control the solenoids directly yourself. Google is your friend in this instance.

Thanks Reece. I never noticed the XJ's shifting as a problem....but that makes sense. I also didn't wheel it all that hard (compared to my TJ at least).




I wonder if I can fit a XJ shifter (I like it's simplicity) into the dash were the glove box and radio currently are? If I go the locking center console route for my headunit I was going to have to plug up the stereo hole anyway....



Ah it's frustrating to be so far out from a finished project, but it's fun to dream.

[Billygoat]

With a 700r4 can you make the stock column shifter work?

I don't care if I lose the ability to put it is 1, I don't have room for the floor shifter, and to be blunt am to cheap to want to buy 1.