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  #21  
Old 12-20-2010, 10:18 PM
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jaber jaber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticBoob
Wow, that's impressive. So the later TBI Tahoe pumps are capable of 45psi, but does the system actually use that?

I just mounted this pump to the frame of the J-20 for the caddy TBI.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Airtex-Master-Fuel-Pump/_/N-8vcz2?counter=0&filterByKeyWord=E2000&fromString=s earch&isSearchByPartNumber=true&itemIdentifier=386 516_0_0_

This is the specs on the site...

Quote:
Maximum Free Flow Rate (gph): 40
Maximum Pressure Range (psi): 95
Minimum Free Flow Rate (gph): 30
Minimum Pressure Range (psi): 70

Is this pump rated for 70 PSI?
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  #22  
Old 12-20-2010, 10:41 PM
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The E2000 pump is popular for TBI conversions if you don't go with the in-tank pump. The E200 pump works fine for the usual 10-13 psi that most GM TBI systems run at.

There may be some TBI systems that run at 45 psi, but most of the junkyard systems that people use do not run that high.
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  #23  
Old 12-20-2010, 11:02 PM
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I was told this pump would also feed an MPFI set up.
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  #24  
Old 12-21-2010, 01:17 AM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaber
I just mounted this pump to the frame of the J-20 for the caddy TBI.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Airtex-Master-Fuel-Pump/_/N-8vcz2?counter=0&filterByKeyWord=E2000&fromString=s earch&isSearchByPartNumber=true&itemIdentifier=386 516_0_0_

This is the specs on the site...


Is this pump rated for 70 PSI?


Yes, that's an MPFI pump. I don't know what they mean by minimum, as most high-pressure pumps will happily put out a regulated 13-15psi all day long and not complain. I'm running an external Bosch turbine #69100, and the specs are 90-100 psi, 50 gal/hr. It's for a late-eighties Ford E-150, 5.8L.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJGuy
There may be some TBI systems that run at 45 psi, but most of the junkyard systems that people use do not run that high.

Yes, and that late-model TBI Tahoe must be running reeeeally tiny injectors and fat pulses if it's pushing 45psi!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle

[content deleted - I no longer support MS]

There are also some GREAT injector/throttle body flow rate calculators to be found there. They should answer any specific questions you have about your setup.
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  #25  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:29 PM
Rocket Dog Rocket Dog is offline
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wow huge discussion on this.

I just rebuild A 401 .20 over and about 9:1 cr. small RV cam.

I just wanted a more reliable ride since I think that I'm going to tow and DD the waggy more than putting it off camber.


any how. I don't have much experiace and guess the first step is to get the harness built agian.
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  #26  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticBoob
Where do you find them so cheap? I looked high and low and ended up paying $125 for mine (complete and working). This was before Craigslist, though. I saw 305 TBIs all over So. Cal. junkyards for like $20. They're the same as the 350 unit, but with smaller injectors.

Dunno about the 360, but the 454 unit is perfectly matched to my 401.
i've seen them on craigslist for less than $100, and even some on this site for free or swap for 350 units.

are you sure your 401 can flow to what the 454 unit can put out stock? the amc heads aren't known to flow much air, so you might be stuck with trying to dial down a pretty rich mixture, defeating the point of the larger injectors and larger throttle body.

Al
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  #27  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
Sorry, typo. 45PSI. Not sure what the actual setting is on the regulator, but I do know the pumps put out at least 45 lbs. It was the only TBI vehicle that could be retrofitted to Edelbrock's PERFORMER MULTI-POINT EFI SYSTEM.

The system requires 43-45 lbs, and the in tank pump in the Tahoe is the only one capable of providing the pressure needed. As I said, I don't know what the regulator was set at, but there had to be a reason they were equipped with a high pressure pump. the earliest TBI pumps were marginal at 15 PSI.
feed me literature that proves this.

i'm a diehard chevy guy with the 88-98 bodystyle and have NEVER heard of any TBI unit asking for more than the required 9-13psi. i highly doubt this is true. you are probably mistaking it for the vortec motors that do require high pressures. the fuel pressure regulator can't even be dialed in that high, nor does it hardly ever need to be adjusted. even in 'extreme' (note: extreme in the tbi world is considered very mild to the rest of the world because of the ECM's limit) modifications to the engine and throttle body you don't need to mess with the regulator much if any. the tbi unit can't do anything with 45psi.

Al
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  #28  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:18 PM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlsChopShop
i've seen them on craigslist for less than $100, and even some on this site for free or swap for 350 units.

are you sure your 401 can flow to what the 454 unit can put out stock? the amc heads aren't known to flow much air, so you might be stuck with trying to dial down a pretty rich mixture, defeating the point of the larger injectors and larger throttle body.

Al

She runs beautifully - lean where she should be and rich when it's needed. I am close to the limit on my idle pulsewidths but still within the acceptable range for PWM. No other hiccups, I'm one happy camper. Remember, the 454s these came off of only made about 230hp. I'm making at least 280. According to this article, the 454 heads were pretty bad:

Quote:
On the heads, the stock TBI peanut port heads are just plain awful but some porting and larger valves can at least make them tolerable. There is a reason the stock TBI 454 only made 250hp at its best from GM and this is the key reason. You can make about 320hp with all the other upgrades but to get real 454 power your going to have to change the heads.
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  #29  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:28 PM
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AlsChopShop AlsChopShop is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticBoob
She runs beautifully - lean where she should be and rich when it's needed. I am close to the limit on my idle pulsewidths but still within the acceptable range for PWM. No other hiccups, I'm one happy camper. Remember, the 454s these came off of only made about 230hp. I'm making at least 280. According to this article, the 454 heads were pretty bad:
not that many 454's came with peanut port heads from what i've heard, and those that did weren't all that bad unless you were trying to modify them. they had more low end torque with that design. and do we really look at Hp numbers anyway? i thought that was only for the hon-duh guys.

Al
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  #30  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:39 PM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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I want one of those $100 454 throttle bodies and injectors, too!

Although I think I'm doing OK with my "regular" 350 TB housing and whatever injectors Howell sent me back in 2001.
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  #31  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:41 PM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlsChopShop
not that many 454's came with peanut port heads from what i've heard, and those that did weren't all that bad unless you were trying to modify them. they had more low end torque with that design. and do we really look at Hp numbers anyway? i thought that was only for the hon-duh guys.

Al

Haha you're right, I completely agree, that's why I built my Jeep with a single exhaust and low/mid range cam. But HP is more connected to airflow/high rpm than torque, and I do drive it a lot on the street and highway, so drivable horsepower was a factor for me. I wanted lots of low-end torque, but I also didn't want the engine to be a dog over 3,000rpm.

Oh and I've always heard from the old timers on here that dogleg AMC heads were some of the best flowing ever put out on "normal" engines.
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  #32  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Dog
wow huge discussion on this.

I just rebuild A 401 .20 over and about 9:1 cr. small RV cam.

I just wanted a more reliable ride since I think that I'm going to tow and DD the waggy more than putting it off camber.


any how. I don't have much experiace and guess the first step is to get the harness built agian.

I'm in Long Beach, so if you want to hang out some time just let me know! I can come up there or you can come visit if you want to take a look at the rat's nest under my hood. I'm going to be re-wiring it soon, it's a mess.
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  #33  
Old 12-23-2010, 12:32 AM
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJ Guy
I want one of those $100 454 throttle bodies and injectors, too!

Although I think I'm doing OK with my "regular" 350 TB housing and whatever injectors Howell sent me back in 2001.

Ethan, I'm not an expert either, and hate doing math, but the restricted flow of the 350 TBI unit may another factor in addition to elevation that's hurting your acceleration times. Depends on your engine mods, etc.

I see 350 TBI ratings from 480-500cfm. A stock 401 in '74 put out 215hp with a carburetor, and a TBI 350 makes around 210hp. So if you're modded slightly you may well be losing a bit of power in the high end, like having a restrictor plate. Though your elevation might make up for running a smaller throttle body. Someone would have to bust out the math/Desktop Dyno to know for sure.
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  #34  
Old 12-23-2010, 07:42 AM
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DAHoyle DAHoyle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlsChopShop
feed me literature that proves this.

i'm a diehard chevy guy with the 88-98 bodystyle and have NEVER heard of any TBI unit asking for more than the required 9-13psi. i highly doubt this is true. you are probably mistaking it for the vortec motors that do require high pressures. the fuel pressure regulator can't even be dialed in that high, nor does it hardly ever need to be adjusted. even in 'extreme' (note: extreme in the tbi world is considered very mild to the rest of the world because of the ECM's limit) modifications to the engine and throttle body you don't need to mess with the regulator much if any. the tbi unit can't do anything with 45psi.

Al

I'd like to make a few points. First, just because you have never heard something, doesn't mean it isn't true. I specifically looked into just that question, when I started considering modifications, so I just might have a little more insight on the subject. Since you apparently aren't aware of it, I can assume you are somewhat less knowledgable than you would like to believe.

Many(relative term) people adjust their fuel pressure, and it does, or can have emmense benefits, when you start tuning the injection for higher horsepower, bigger cams, different heads, or just different fuel requirements in general. A fuel pressure adjustment is generally the first place that a tuner starts. Almost everyone with a tuner skips straight to 12-13 PSI, and many go well beyond that. Generally speaking the factory pump(pre 95 tahoe) starts falling on it's face at 16-18PSI, so to get higher, the pump must be replaced.

Lots of folks run "extreme' systems, as you put it, with bigger cams, free flowing heads, larger displacements, and even a couple of twin setups running on tunnel rams, as well as cross rams. Not everyone finds the factory computer as limiting as you do, and have found ways around it. Even a few small airflow imrovements will quickly overwhelm the stock pressure of 9-13 PSI, at the top of the power band. Guess why so many folks had problems with lean running trucks when these things first came out. Hmmm, think I'll toss some headers on this baby, and lose the catalytic converter. Yep, you guessed it. Not enough fuel from the factory system, to even manage that tiny little mod. Over time, some folks figured out how to adjust the FPR. You're just about 20 years behind the times. Of course, everyone blamed those darned computers, but the fact of the matter, is that the program kicked out of open loop operation at about 75% throttle opening, and had a fixxed fuel curve programmed in. Change the fuel requirements, and the computer didn't know it. It was left out of the loop, so to speak. You could reprogram the chip, and in fact there was an entire market that opened up, offering reprogrammed chips, that essentially did nothing anywhere in the power band, except in that top 25% of throttle. Guess what they did. They fed it more fuel. They also sucked the big one, but hey, they sold like hotcakes. The smarter folks started tuning, and in most cases, they started with fuel pressure.


Second, It is a very simple matter to change the fuel pressure, by modifying the spring pressure eithe by shimming the spring, installing stiffer springs, converting the factory regulator housing to adjustable, or even vacumme referencing it. GMPP even sells a vacume refferenced pressure regulator. When you start climbing even higher, then bypassing the factory regulator and installing an external, becomes the fix.

Seriously, if you are limiting your thinking to the factory programming, then you are probably right, but there is a huge world out there that you apparently are unaware of. There are more than a few TBI fire breathers out there, well over twice the factory power ratings.

Lastly, I don't feel that I owe you any proof, just because you don't know what you are talking about, butr since you asked so nice(that's sarcasm, by the way)

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_.../3000/3501.pdf

You will note the very first caution statement, right under where it says:
STOP!
BEFORE BEGINNING INSTALLATION,
READ THESE IMPORTANT NOTES…

While that isn't really proof, it does tend to make one believe that the '95 tahoe has the required pump for the kit.

How about an actual installation in the vehicle with the mythical pump. Would that convince you? Yep, a '95 Tahoe, with a TBI, and a high pressure pump.

http://www.sporttruck.com/techarticl...ion/index.html

Since the Edelbrock system requires 45PSI, and you don't have to upgrade the pump in a Tahoe, well, guess what. That means the Tahoe has a pump that puts out at least 45PSI. Does it need it, nope, probably not. Can the factory TBI setup work with that, well, going to have to take a shot in the dark, and say that if it comes with a TBI LO5 engine, and a 45 PSI pump, (both equipped by good ol Chevrolet) I'm going to have to guess that it will work just ducky.

On top of that, it is somewhat curious that AC Delco lists the 95 Tahoe fuel pressure regulator, with only one vehicle that it is compatible with. Care to guess what it is? Oh, here's a clue. It is a '95 Tahoe. I have read the regulated pressure was 30#, but I have been unable to find that reference, so I didn't include it in my previous posts. I will find it tho.

Seriously, you are not the expert that you seem to think, and quite honestly don't know squat on the system you claim to know so well, other than it's stock applications. There are plenty of folks that go way farther than that, and have increased both power, and economy of the factory TBI setup, with some innovative tuning.

What do you think Howell does, to get away with running the system on non-compatible engines. Oh yeah, they change the program.... They aren't the only ones who know how, and there are plenty of semi intelligent shade tree mechanics who do exactly the same thing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, and pretty much the tools of the trade are an ALDL cable, a laptop, and some Data logging software. From there, you can either burn your own chips, or send your log to another hacker who can. If you really want to play, then you can skip the whole chip burning thing, and go straight to an emulator. http://www.dynamicefi.com/
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  #35  
Old 12-23-2010, 09:52 AM
FSJ Guy FSJ Guy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Dog
wow huge discussion on this.

I just rebuild A 401 .20 over and about 9:1 cr. small RV cam.

I just wanted a more reliable ride since I think that I'm going to tow and DD the waggy more than putting it off camber.


any how. I don't have much experiace and guess the first step is to get the harness built agian.

Poor Rocket Dog. We're gotten SOO far off topic, it's not even funny!

OK, yes it is.

Rocket Dog, aside from grabbing ALL the parts from the donor vehicle, what else do you need help with?
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  #36  
Old 12-23-2010, 10:48 AM
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srobertsfsj srobertsfsj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSJ Guy
Poor Rocket Dog. We're gotten SOO far off topic, it's not even funny!

OK, yes it is.

Rocket Dog, aside from grabbing ALL the parts from the donor vehicle, what else do you need help with?

....and no one answered my question either

What would be the best year/make/model donor vehicle to look for at the junkyard for the 350 TBI setup?
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  #37  
Old 12-23-2010, 10:58 AM
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DAHoyle DAHoyle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srobertsfsj
....and no one answered my question either

What would be the best year/make/model donor vehicle to look for at the junkyard for the 350 TBI setup?

Why would you assume that there is a "best one"?

They are almost all functionally identical. Some minor programming differences, among other things(different injector flow ratings), but pretty much all the same hardware.

the obvious exception would be the aforementioned BBC which has a different throttle body, and the 95 Tahoe.
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  #38  
Old 12-23-2010, 11:24 AM
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PlasticBoob PlasticBoob is offline
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DAHoyle, I just woke up and didn't read your post thoroughly, but here are my thoughts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHoyle
Does it need it, nope, probably not.


I see there's really no argument here then.

* The 1995 Tahoe put out 200hp. Stock, it clearly doesn't need 45psi. Chevy knew they were switching to the Vortec the next year, so maybe for some reason (ordering, parts stocking) they equipped '95 Tahoes with the '96+ SFI pump. I'm not doubting the pump is capable of 45psi, it's very reasonable to assume that it can put out that or more, since we have a regulator that is regulating it down.

* The instructions you listed were for Edelbrock's MPFI - I still don't see any TBI system that says it requires 45psi, though I guess it could certainly be possible on the aftermarket units that run FOUR injectors. 45psi just seems really high for twin-injector TBI. Again, going by the flow-rate calculators, the injectors would have to be REALLY tiny for 45psi, because from what I've found in my research, 45psi on stock 305, 350, or even 454 injectors should make them stick open. They simply can't close under 45psi.

Here is an interesting discussion I found on another forum:

http://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/inde...showtopic=8229

Quote:
My book had a misprint. through 95, it is 9-13 psi. 96 and up is 60psi for SFI systems. Mines a 95. It should have said 96 and up, not 95 and up so it messed me up.

Have a good one, guys.
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  #39  
Old 12-23-2010, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srobertsfsj
....and no one answered my question either

What would be the best year/make/model donor vehicle to look for at the junkyard for the 350 TBI setup?

Then go start your own thread.

GM Astrovans often have the 1227747 ECM that is so popular. But they have the V6, too.

You'll want a TBI off a 350 so that you get the larger injectors (V6's have smaller (lower lb/hr) rated injectors, IIRC).

If you CAN fine it, the ASDU broadcast code is a good starting point. If you are burning chips, then of course it doesn't matter what chip is in there. But you DO want an ECM off a 350 so it has the correct "limp home" chip. The V6 limp home chip won't get you very far in the event of a failure. But failure is rare, so if you HAVE to get a v^ limp home chip, it's probably not a big deal.

As always, grab EVERY sensor you can get. Even if it's no good, now you know what to ask for @ the parts store.

Or you could just buy Michael's TBI. He's had it for years and hasn't installed it yet. Once his daughter's out of college, he might get to it. But by then he'll want the hover conversion kit instead.
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srobertsfsj
....and no one answered my question either

What would be the best year/make/model donor vehicle to look for at the junkyard for the 350 TBI setup?

Sorry about that, there's a lot going on in this thread. Like DAHoyle said, one 350 system is just as good as the next. HOWEVER, there is a certain model # ECU that is much more desirable because it can be modded six ways from Sunday. I think it's the Boeing 747? 7747? Something like that.
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