International Full Size Jeep Association
Home Forums Reader's Rigs Tech Library Trail Stories FSJ-List
International Full Size Jeep Association  

Go Back   International Full Size Jeep Association > Tire Kickin' > General FSJ Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-05-2013, 02:26 PM
vacaisle's Avatar
vacaisle vacaisle is offline
snide. snarky. grease covered.
 
Join Date: Mar 18, 2013
Location: Rockaway Beach, NY
Posts: 1,390
Radiator flush results

So I did a flush. First a chemical flush as per the instructions on the bottle, then a back flush with the hose adapter kit. Water ran clear after 5 or 6 minutes so I shut it off and drained the radiator. I filled it up with about 1.75 galons of pure antifreeze and it was full so I figured that there must have been some water in the system still. I filled the overflow tank with 50/50 after a thorough cleaning and went on my way. The temperature held pretty steady for about ten minutes then started to slowly rise to just under 220*. Over the last two days I have topped off the overflow tank with 50/50 and checked under the cap to see if it's full. Now it holds strong just above 200* but if I stress the system any it seems to rise close to 220* and MAYBE drop back down after driving around.
So, (1) did I knock loose some junk and now I have blockage (wouldn't the hose flush clear that up)? (2) need a new radiator cap? (3) need new hoses because of some sort of collapsing issue (upper and bypass hoses are new)? (4) need a new thermostat...again (just replaced that 6 months ago with a 195* and the heat works great/I can see it open when it first warms up because suddenly the gauge drops once it hits about 200*)?
I can't afford a new radiator right now so any additional band aid fixes would be appreciated.
I should add: coolant definitely flows into and out of the overflow tank so that should indicate a functional cap, right?
__________________
89 Grand Wagoneer
145,000 miles, TFI, MSD 6a

Last edited by vacaisle : 09-05-2013 at 02:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-05-2013, 02:46 PM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,593
Swing into a shop w/ IR temp gun and have the radiator checked for temp differences.
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-05-2013, 02:50 PM
joe joe is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 28, 2000
Location: PNWet, USA
Posts: 22,392
Did you burp the system? You may have an air bubble/pocket. Fill to the top of the core, not all the way to the fill neck, you need room for expansion then run it(idle) for 15-20 min to purge the air. Remember flushing is a maintenance procedure to keep the system from clogging up, it's NOT a cure/fix for an already clogged with sediment radiator. Since most folks don't maintain their cooling system when I buy a 20 year old car I always budget for a new radiator in the near future. Yeah radiators are expensive but they are a wear item if not maintained and when ya need one ya need one. If you end up buying a new one and you plan to keep the car flush your system every two years and refill with a fresh 50/50 mix and it'll be the last radiator you buy.
edit: oops should have written leave the cap off when doing the burping.
__________________
joe
"Don't mind me. I'm just here for the alibi"

Last edited by joe : 09-06-2013 at 12:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-05-2013, 03:27 PM
tgreese's Avatar
tgreese tgreese is offline
 
Join Date: May 29, 2003
Location: Medford MA USA
Posts: 11,151
Another tip -

I would not leave the plastic back-flush tee in my heater hose. Maybe the modern ones are better, but they used to get brittle from under-hood temperatures and were prone to breaking.
__________________
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-05-2013, 03:32 PM
tgreese's Avatar
tgreese tgreese is offline
 
Join Date: May 29, 2003
Location: Medford MA USA
Posts: 11,151
You might want to read this thread.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ner-flush.html

Oxalic Acid dissolves rust. It's one of the ingredients in CLR. <NOT SUGGESTING CLR!!>

You don't want to drain the radiator contents into your local storm drain though. Pay attention to where the rinse water goes. If you do this, I suggest you catch the effluent, neutralize it with baking soda (or more washing soda), and pour it down the drain.
__________________
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk

Last edited by tgreese : 09-05-2013 at 05:52 PM. Reason: NOT SUGGESTING CLR!!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-05-2013, 04:23 PM
vacaisle's Avatar
vacaisle vacaisle is offline
snide. snarky. grease covered.
 
Join Date: Mar 18, 2013
Location: Rockaway Beach, NY
Posts: 1,390
I'm pretty sure the air is out. It's my DD and I've been driving it for three days since the flush.
I've read about CLR. Maybe I'll try that.
I guess new hoses wouldn't hurt.
There was about an inch and a half of rusty sediment in the overflow tank. I guess I don't understand why the flush wouldn't get it out of the radiator.
__________________
89 Grand Wagoneer
145,000 miles, TFI, MSD 6a
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-05-2013, 05:50 PM
tgreese's Avatar
tgreese tgreese is offline
 
Join Date: May 29, 2003
Location: Medford MA USA
Posts: 11,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by vacaisle
I'm pretty sure the air is out. It's my DD and I've been driving it for three days since the flush.
I've read about CLR. Maybe I'll try that.
I guess new hoses wouldn't hurt.
There was about an inch and a half of rusty sediment in the overflow tank. I guess I don't understand why the flush wouldn't get it out of the radiator.

Oh no. I would not ever put CLR in a radiator. Not ever never. It's a proprietary mix of different acids, and who knows what it will do to your engine and cooling system.

Instead, if I wanted to try something drastic, I would follow the instructions in the link I posted. Read the GM TSB carefully. I have used to old 2-part kits back when they were available at the parts store (no more - too bad). The kits were effective. You can buy the chemicals that were used in the 2-part kits, and follow the GM TSB. But you need to read the TSB.

If your radiator is really gunked up, likely you will have to pay up for a new one. Fortunately commodity radiators can be bought rather cheaply for the 360 V8 Wagoneers. Check old posts.
__________________
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk

Last edited by tgreese : 09-05-2013 at 05:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-05-2013, 06:08 PM
austinaubinoe's Avatar
austinaubinoe austinaubinoe is offline
FSJ Maniac
 
Join Date: Aug 08, 2010
Location: Maryland/ Williamsport, PA
Posts: 2,995
might try this stuff:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...1&s=automotive

Its corrosive against aluminum (so you need a brass radiator). Yeah the timing cover is aluminum, but you only run it for 10 minutes or so. Got my radiator REALLY clean. way stronger then the parts store flushes!
__________________
Austin

1991 Hunter Green Grand Wagoneer
5.9 2bbl-727-NP229-TFI-30x9.5 Firestone M/T's-Brush Guard-tire mount
SOON: 4350 and cast iron intake

Others:
-1994 Baby Grand
-2000 XJ cherokee on Tons
-1953 REO M35A2 6x6
-1955 Willys Pickup



Quote:
Originally Posted by rustywagoneers_com
i am not an addict, i can stop anytime.
i dont have a problem, you people have the problem.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-05-2013, 06:50 PM
vacaisle's Avatar
vacaisle vacaisle is offline
snide. snarky. grease covered.
 
Join Date: Mar 18, 2013
Location: Rockaway Beach, NY
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreese
Oh no. I would not ever put CLR in a radiator. Not ever never. It's a proprietary mix of different acids, and who knows what it will do to your engine and cooling system.

Instead, if I wanted to try something drastic, I would follow the instructions in the link I posted. Read the GM TSB carefully. I have used to old 2-part kits back when they were available at the parts store (no more - too bad). The kits were effective. You can buy the chemicals that were used in the 2-part kits, and follow the GM TSB. But you need to read the TSB.

If your radiator is really gunked up, likely you will have to pay up for a new one. Fortunately commodity radiators can be bought rather cheaply for the 360 V8 Wagoneers. Check old posts.

Oh you meant the instructions in blue. I'm going to read that when I get home. I should add that I didn't really have this issue before the flush. The reason I did the flush was because I knew the fluid was really old and if I went 65 for more than 10 minutes the temperature would creep past 220*. So this is sort of a new problem as a result of the flush. I'm just wondering what the flush could have done to cause this. Like I said it holds pretty solid until I push it then it seems like it gives up and the temperature starts rising. Like once it gets to a certain point it won't come down unless I am steadily driving at about 35-40 which doesn't happen in NYC. That's why I was thinking a collapsing hose, the cap, or maybe that "T" I inserted into the heater hose for the flush. I'm also not totally sure what the mix is. Could too much antifreeze cause overheating? It's about 1" above the full mark on the overflow tank when hot too so maybe it's overfilled.
Oh and one more thing. On the filler neck on the radiator the overflow hose nipple points to the driver side and my tank is on the passenger side. Maybe it's a replacement that fits but isn't the right one. The PO did some funky stuff.
__________________
89 Grand Wagoneer
145,000 miles, TFI, MSD 6a

Last edited by vacaisle : 09-05-2013 at 07:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-05-2013, 09:00 PM
Rich88's Avatar
Rich88 Rich88 is offline
FSJ Maniac
 
Join Date: Nov 20, 2008
Location: Wilds of Ellington, CT
Posts: 4,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by vacaisle
..... It's about 1" above the full mark on the overflow tank when hot too so maybe it's overfilled....

That's meaningless. What's important is the level when its cold and has had a chance for any steam bubbles to collapse on cool-down and suck the fluid back in from the overflow tank. Otherwise, its impossible to "overfill" a radiator.

If you've got temp creep at sustained highway speeds, then:
* the sender or gauge is off, or
* the radiator is not doing it job because it internally clogged, or
* fluid is low, or
* something's going on with the engine generating too much heat.

FYI, a lousy connection at the sender can skew the readings high. This is because sender hi resistance = hi temp and low resistance = low temp. So if the connection is gunked up it will add resistance in the circuit which makes the gauge think its a higher temp than what really is. Remove & refresh the connector just to make sure.
__________________
Jeepasaurus (Wagonus Grandi quadropedus)
88 GW 360-.030 over/2150/727/229/Posi, e-pump, AC (broke), tow package, Monroe Air Shocks, TFI, CTO-Free, AIR-free, oil & tranny coolers, dried knuckle blood all over, GM 350 TBI in a box, waiting...
"You're an FSJ'r when the parts guys memorize your name, phone & credit card#."
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-05-2013, 10:24 PM
vacaisle's Avatar
vacaisle vacaisle is offline
snide. snarky. grease covered.
 
Join Date: Mar 18, 2013
Location: Rockaway Beach, NY
Posts: 1,390
That's all good to know.
Ok so I just drove home and here's what happened. For the first 30 minutes of my drive its city with no more than 5 blocks before a light and never faster than 35. The temperature, once it warmed up and the thermostat opened, stayed below what I believe is about 200*. Then I hit a couple long stretches with no lights and 45-55 mph speeds. The temperature rose to about 200*. Then the last leg is two bridges which means a little extra effort to get up the bridge. The temperature went a little above 200 then went back down to about 200 when I hit my neighborhood which is back to lots of lights and 35 mph. This seems totally normal. It's also about 66* out tonight. So when it's hot out is when the temperature rises more and doesn't want to come down. That makes sense. BUT isn't the cooling system supposed to let you get to the level of the thermostat and then keep you there through a wide range of driving conditions? Like hotter ambient temperature or driving fast or driving slow or driving for a while at sustained near-highway speeds? Is it supposed to take 30 minutes of normal city driving in my conditions to reach the level of the thermostat?
One other question. Would the lack of hood insulation affect anything?
__________________
89 Grand Wagoneer
145,000 miles, TFI, MSD 6a
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-05-2013, 11:57 PM
letank's Avatar
letank letank is offline
AMC 4 OH! 1
 
Join Date: Jun 03, 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,885
Underhood insulation has nothing to do with heat, it is mostly to improve the driver's noise comfort.

As said you need to check your radiator temp with an infra red thermometer.... or an oven thermometer not as good but works.

The FSJ temp gauge is for entertainment purpose and better check the difference between input and output which should range from 40 to 60 degrees depending on outside temp.... as you said on a cold nite it is not spiking as bad.

If you put full heat... does the temp go down?
__________________
Michel
74 wag, 349Kmiles on original ticker/trany, except for the rust. Will it make it to the next get together without a rebuilt? Status: needs a new body.
85 Gwag, 226 Kmiles. $250 FSJ test lab since 02, that refuses to give up but still leaks.

See Ouray 2013, Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-06-2013, 01:32 AM
tgreese's Avatar
tgreese tgreese is offline
 
Join Date: May 29, 2003
Location: Medford MA USA
Posts: 11,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by vacaisle
... BUT isn't the cooling system supposed to let you get to the level of the thermostat and then keep you there through a wide range of driving conditions? ...

Yes, ideally.

The cooling system is a classic negative feedback system. Once the engine warms up, its temperature should stay near its set point (the temperature setting of the thermostat).

Two main things keeps the system operation from being ideal. First is how quickly the thermostat opens in response to temperature changes.

Second is system capacity. If the cooling capacity is low, the cooling system will be ineffective at controlling the temperature.

If the temperature varies a lot, the most likely problem is that your engine's cooling capacity is poor, and the thermostat cannot exert much control over the temperature.

Easiest/fastest/best way to increase the capacity is to replace the radiator with a newer/cleaner/bigger radiator.
__________________
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-06-2013, 06:52 AM
vacaisle's Avatar
vacaisle vacaisle is offline
snide. snarky. grease covered.
 
Join Date: Mar 18, 2013
Location: Rockaway Beach, NY
Posts: 1,390
Yeah if I turn the heat on full blast the temperature goes down.
Should I have done the flush with the thermostat removed? Did the cold hose water close the thermostat and not allow water to pass through the upper radiator hose and clear the radiator?
__________________
89 Grand Wagoneer
145,000 miles, TFI, MSD 6a
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-06-2013, 08:25 AM
tgreese's Avatar
tgreese tgreese is offline
 
Join Date: May 29, 2003
Location: Medford MA USA
Posts: 11,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by vacaisle
Yeah if I turn the heat on full blast the temperature goes down.
Should I have done the flush with the thermostat removed? Did the cold hose water close the thermostat and not allow water to pass through the upper radiator hose and clear the radiator?

Yes, I would remove the thermostat. Any other plan seems like it would take a very long time (add water, run the engine till the thermostat opens, drain, repeat).

If I wanted to flush again, and the GM TSB was too difficult, I would use the stuff that Austin recommends above. Your local parts store can probably get it for you from one of their warehouses. In the middle of the week, stuff like this can often be obtained same or next day (depending on the time of day).
__________________
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination ATs, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
ECO Green: '15 FCA Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk

Last edited by tgreese : 09-06-2013 at 08:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-06-2013, 08:51 AM
vacaisle's Avatar
vacaisle vacaisle is offline
snide. snarky. grease covered.
 
Join Date: Mar 18, 2013
Location: Rockaway Beach, NY
Posts: 1,390
I think I will get that stuff. Flush with that then do a hose flush. Both with the thermostat removed. The fluid in there now is totally fresh. Is it worth keeping what I drain then putting it back in after the procedure?
__________________
89 Grand Wagoneer
145,000 miles, TFI, MSD 6a
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-06-2013, 09:03 AM
babywag's Avatar
babywag babywag is offline
out of order
 
Join Date: Jun 08, 2005
Location: Land of froot loops and cukcoo-nuts, CA
Posts: 9,593
Have it checked with an IR temp gun will tell you 100% if it's the radiator.

My 1st SJ was a '77 Cherokee w/ a 401.
Thing always ran hot, liked to overheat @ inconvenient times.
My dad owned it for years before I got a hold of it.
1st thing I did after it was mine was a flush, and it still would run hot.
I replaced the radiator, and it never ran hot again EVER.
Even 4low crawling on trails it ran cool as a cucumber.

Shop around find your local autobody collision parts warehouse.
You should be able to find a new radiator for ~$200 if you need one.
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-06-2013, 09:12 AM
vacaisle's Avatar
vacaisle vacaisle is offline
snide. snarky. grease covered.
 
Join Date: Mar 18, 2013
Location: Rockaway Beach, NY
Posts: 1,390
Yeah the three rows on eBay are just under 200. When I have the cash I'll be getting one.
__________________
89 Grand Wagoneer
145,000 miles, TFI, MSD 6a
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-06-2013, 09:42 AM
TexasJ10's Avatar
TexasJ10 TexasJ10 is offline
360 AMC
 
Join Date: Jan 03, 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,772
It's possible you have way too much antifreeze verses water in your system. Antifreeze is not that great of coolant. Having nearly 2 gallons of pure antifreeze in there may have affected the heat transfer ability of the system. Just a thought since this problem only came up after you added that mix.
__________________
* 1981 stepside, 360, 727, 208, almost stock daily driver.
* 1982 Laredo j-10, 360, 727, in rough shape and in the process of being rebuilt with 401, NV4500, Klune,
. NP205,d60 front, d70 rear, fender work and minimal lift. It will probably take 10 years
* 1973 jcab mounted on 1983 j20 frame. 360/t18/208 d44/d60. Almost completed
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-06-2013, 10:15 AM
autogatto's Avatar
autogatto autogatto is offline
258 I6
 
Join Date: Apr 24, 2009
Location: Lakewood, CO / Milano, Italy
Posts: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasJ10
It's possible you have way too much antifreeze verses water in your system. Antifreeze is not that great of coolant. Having nearly 2 gallons of pure antifreeze in there may have affected the heat transfer ability of the system. Just a thought since this problem only came up after you added that mix.

X2. Running pure antifree or a very high percentage of it in your system doesn't make your engine run cooler but actually hotter.
__________________
1977 CJ 5 401cid, 1979 CJ 5 343cid, 1979 cj 5 304cid, 1976 CJ 7 304cid, 1981 J 10 360cid
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dyno Results Lambrewski General FSJ Tech 9 08-21-2009 09:27 AM
Brake upgrade results bigblack'74 General FSJ Tech 4 06-30-2008 10:15 AM
Wolverine 4x4 Show Results and Pics now online. mtxbigtruckin Events 8 05-17-2007 01:22 PM
TBI datalog results waggy401 General FSJ Tech 24 05-16-2007 12:33 PM
compresion test results rusty eagle General FSJ Tech 5 06-11-2005 02:19 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
corner corner